127 replies to this topic

[and then]

Lord Vetinari, on 12 February 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

the last two? I thought John Paul II was reputed to have made some effort to build bridges with other faiths. Anyway, Popes are supposed to be conservative, aren't they, they are after all supposed to represent an unbroken line going back to St Peter.

Well the position IS the leadership of Christ's church and His message isn't one of change so, yeah, conservative is the order of the day.  A pope who would make the church more worldly is a step backward for most Catholics who actually follow Christ.

[Frank Merton]

John-Paul's attitudes towards other faiths may have been friendly, but totally uncompromising.  I heard several times his complaints about Buddhist "atheism," and so on.  His failure to give any ground on the position of women in the church, on gays, on divorce, on abortion and contraception, and other issues has put the church way out of touch with the world and the way it seems to me the spirit is taking the world.

I'm not a Catholic and therefore in no position to tell the it how it should go.  I can only say that taking the road it takes -- that of saying, "We are only defending Truth even if it is unpopular," is arrogant and unproductive and sectarian and, in fact, singularly un-Christlike.

[Mr Right Wing]

Frank Merton, on 12 February 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

John-Paul's attitudes towards other faiths may have been friendly, but totally uncompromising.  I heard several times his complaints about Buddhist "atheism," and so on.  His failure to give any ground on the position of women in the church, on gays, on divorce, on abortion and contraception, and other issues has put the church way out of touch with the world and the way it seems to me the spirit is taking the world.

I'm not a Catholic and therefore in no position to tell the it how it should go.  I can only say that taking the road it takes -- that of saying, "We are only defending Truth even if it is unpopular," is arrogant and unproductive and sectarian and, in fact, singularly un-Christlike.

How is the Catholic Church out of touch with the world when it has 1.8 billion followers?

Its interesting to see how much of the worlds population is religious. Heres the biggest religions -
Christainity - 2.1 billion
Islam - 1.6 billion
Hinduism - 1.4 billion
Buddism - 400 million

That alone is 5.5 billion people and with other religions added it would be higher. It is clearly obvious that the vast majority of the worlds people dont agree with atheism. In certain countries (mentioning no names) the shear arrogance of the atheists/liberals in claiming they are right and everyone else on the planet thinks the same as them is unbelievable.

Edited by Mr Right Wing, 12 February 2013 - 11:46 AM.

[Br Cornelius]

This little song about sums up the rediculousness of the Catholic intransigence in the face of population explosion and AIDS;



Br Cornelius

[Sky Scanner]

Don't know what the fuss is about - in a recession even God needs to lay people off....

[Frank Merton]

Mr. Right Wing doesn't respond to the issues; he only quotes statistics that show numbers of adherents.

[Br Cornelius]

Mr Right Wing, on 12 February 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

How is the Catholic Church out of touch with the world when it has 1.8 billion followers?

Its interesting to see how much of the worlds population is religious. Heres the biggest religions -
Christainity - 2.1 billion
Islam - 1.6 billion
Hinduism - 1.4 billion
Buddism - 400 million

That alone is 5.5 billion people and with other religions added it would be higher. It is clearly obvious that the vast majority of the worlds people dont agree with atheism. In certain countries (mentioning no names) the shear arrogance of the atheists/liberals in claiming they are right and everyone else on the planet thinks the same as them is unbelievable.

The officially recognised figure in 2011 was 1.196 billion not 1.8billion. As a faith it has predominently grown in the less developed parts of the world and predominently through population expansion in those areas with the highest birth rates. It is a religion in decline in those areas where people have exercised there own personal choice.

Interestingly enough this Pope made it impossible for anyone to renounce their faith officially in response to the tidal wave of people it saw actively renouncing their catholic faith. I learn't this from someone who actually tried. Thats not a nice or fair tactic to play on a supposedly loyal and devout flock.

Br Cornelius

[and then]

Frank Merton, on 12 February 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

John-Paul's attitudes towards other faiths may have been friendly, but totally uncompromising.  I heard several times his complaints about Buddhist "atheism," and so on.  His failure to give any ground on the position of women in the church, on gays, on divorce, on abortion and contraception, and other issues has put the church way out of touch with the world and the way it seems to me the spirit is taking the world.

I'm not a Catholic and therefore in no position to tell the it how it should go.  I can only say that taking the road it takes -- that of saying, "We are only defending Truth even if it is unpopular," is arrogant and unproductive and sectarian and, in fact, singularly un-Christlike.

How so?  Christ was NOT a figure of compromise after all.  He plainly said "I am the way, the truth and the life and NO MAN comes to the Father but by Me."  That is a singularly non-inclusive dogma.  And it is why Christians are hated by many all over the world.  As time goes on that hatred will become more virulent - we were warned in advance and expect it.  I am not catholic, nor do I believe in the concept of the papacy but what Ratzinger did was true to the faith at least.  If the church compromises so that no one in the world is offended by it then it ceases to BE the church for all practical purposes.  I fully expect the newest version of the pope to be more "liberal and progressive".  More's the pity.  To defend God's word and design is not the same as preaching hatred.

[Mr Right Wing]

Frank Merton, on 12 February 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

Mr. Right Wing doesn't respond to the issues; he only quotes statistics that show numbers of adherents.

The figures are offical and 'adherents' means people who stick to it not people made to follow it.

[Beckys_Mom]

Sky Scanner, on 12 February 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

Don't know what the fuss is about - in a recession even God needs to lay people off....

Too funny  lol

[Frank Merton]

Roman Catholics or some similar intolerant belief set may prevail.  We are not promised goodness and justice and harmony.

[Mr Right Wing]

Br Cornelius, on 12 February 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

The officially recognised figure in 2011 was 1.196 billion not 1.8billion. As a faith it has predominently grown in the less developed parts of the world and predominently through population expansion in those areas with the highest birth rates. It is a religion in decline in those areas where people have exercised there own personal choice.

Interestingly enough this Pope made it impossible for anyone to renounce their faith officially in response to the tidal wave of people it saw actively renouncing their catholic faith. I learn't this from someone who actually tried. Thats not a nice or fair tactic to play on a supposedly loyal and devout flock.

Br Cornelius

Wiki says 1.1 billion are Catholics from a total of 2.1 billion Christains. So sticking with 1.1 billion, and bearing in mind thats a huge amount of people, how is the Catholic Church out of touch? Lets take a broader view of the world and consider other faiths. As the vast majority of the worlds population are religious how are religions out of touch?

It is shear arrogance that a minority who have no faith should claim that their opinions on abortion, contraception, homosexuality and women rights are correct or wanted by other people. The vast majority of the worlds population doesnt agree with you.

[Br Cornelius]

Mr Right Wing, on 12 February 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

Wiki says 1.1 billion are Catholics from a total of 2.1 billion Christains. So sticking with 1.1 billion, and bearing in mind thats a huge amount of people, how is the Catholic Church out of touch? Lets take a broader view of the world and consider other faiths. As the vast majority of the worlds population are religious how are religions out of touch?

It is shear arrogance that a minority who have no faith should claim that their opinions on abortion, contraception, homosexuality and women rights are correct or wanted by other people. The vast majority of the worlds population doesnt agree with you.

The church is a business which requires numbers and thats what it gets from the developing world. In its core constituency of Europe and North America most people pay lip service to many of the dogmas of the church because it is no longer practical to live with the consequences of no contraception (12 children). That unfortunately is the very definition of an institution which has lost touch with its flock and is in terminal decline.
Religion only thrives where ignorance thrives and that is why its numerical stronghold is in those areas with the weakest eductional systems. However if I was an African I would find little solice in been a catholic in the face of its response to AIDS and the devastating consequences of not advocating the use of condoms.

It is unfortunate that the catholic church has not adapted to the realities of modern life (birth control), but it is aborant that they still deny the biological reality that some people are born to love a person of the same sex. To deny reality is the worst crime of those who live their lives by a dogmatic creed.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 12 February 2013 - 01:04 PM.

[libstaK]

Frank Merton, on 12 February 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

John-Paul's attitudes towards other faiths may have been friendly, but totally uncompromising.  I heard several times his complaints about Buddhist "atheism," and so on.  His failure to give any ground on the position of women in the church, on gays, on divorce, on abortion and contraception, and other issues has put the church way out of touch with the world and the way it seems to me the spirit is taking the world.

I'm not a Catholic and therefore in no position to tell the it how it should go.  I can only say that taking the road it takes -- that of saying, "We are only defending Truth even if it is unpopular," is arrogant and unproductive and sectarian and, in fact, singularly un-Christlike.

Pope John Paul II did a great deal to create inter-faith harmony, I don't know what the sources are for what you have "heard".  Additionally, it was a primary goal of Pope John Paul to elevate the status of the Mother Mary in the minds of the clergy and flock and to encourage supplication to her for intervention, healing and as a means to intervene on behalf of humanity for grace against the continuous "sins" occuring.  In short, Pope John Paul understood the tradition and dogma of the Catholic Church very well, he also understood that a patriarchal church alone had no long term hope of holding the faithful in a world where egalitarian agendas were holding sway among men and women.  The balance of power between the masculine and feminine forces needed to be addressed.

Pope John Paul was known to primarily pray to Mary for intervention in long vigils - this is not the act of a man who would like women to be denied their rightful place in the church more the act of a man who would like to see the way opened for imbalances to be addressed, even if it could not occur within his own lifetime.

Here are a series of statements by Pope John Paul II on Mother Mary's place within the church:

http://www.ewtn.com/...RY/JP2BVM70.HTM

A few pertinent excerpts ...

1. Mary Is Pattern of Church's Holiness
"The Blessed Virgin is the perfect realization of the Church's holiness and its model", the Holy
Father said in the first of a series of reflections on Mary's role in the Church at the General
Audience of Wednesday, 6 September 1995.

7. Mary Shows Us God's Respect for Women
"The figure of Mary shows that God has such esteem for woman that any form of discrimination lacks a theoretical basis", the Holy Father said at the General Audience of 29 November 1995.
8. Mary Sheds Light on Role of Women
At the General Audience of 6 December 1995, the Holy Father continued his catechesis on the Blessed Mother, calling attention in light of the equality of the sexes to the distinctiveness of femininity, as exemplified in the Virgin Mary.

12. Victory Over Sin Comes Through a Woman
"Mary's unique vocation is inseparable from humanity's vocation and, in particular, from that of
every woman, on which light has been shed by the mission of Mary, proclaimed God's first ally against Satan and evil", the Holy Father said at the General Audience on 24 January 1996.

10. Mary's Place Is Highest After Christ
The proper way to explain Marian doctrine was the topic of the Holy Father's weekly catechesis at the General Audience of 3 January 1995. Mariology is not a product of sentimentality, but of the same rigorous method used in all theology.

[ealdwita]

zebra99, on 11 February 2013 - 08:24 PM, said:

Tony Blair will be ready to take the position,he's probably waiting for the call now. And deciding where the peasants should build his pyramid.

He may be known as 'Pope Teflon I' then.