The Biblical God.

[Staari]

While I was growing up I was lead to believe that God (the christian god) was a good god but soon changed due to a thought that stayed with me and I questioned. Christians couldnt and can not even back up their holy book and answer my question .... and those that have tried have failed. They run off the subject and try to replace it with things that still dont answer the question or that are irrelevant. (Im not attacking christians whatsoever but would like to know).

Id love to know what other people think about this or is there even is an answer????

If God knows before you are even born or even thought of what you are going to do, how you going to live and what path you are going to take (Like the Bible states), why would he then punish you by sending you to hell if he knew that you were going to "betray" him and do wrong?

What sort of god would create a person knowing that they are no good just torture them????

I dont believe that any good god would do something like this ..... or even think of it.

This made me wonder if the Bible is for real, and the "Truth" as most christians would put it.

Is heaven and hell then real or just a fairy tale just like the Bible?

~*~

[Ashley-Star*Child]

Because He gave you free will. In His own words 'I will see who among your race loves or abhors Me' with regards to free will. What He wants is you to love Him of your own free will. It's that simple.

[Never_Hit_Nirvana]

While I was growing up I was lead to believe that God (the christian god) was a good god but soon changed due to a thought that stayed with me and I questioned. Christians couldnt and can not even back up their holy book and answer my question .... and those that have tried have failed. They run off the subject and try to replace it with things that still dont answer the question or that are irrelevant. (Im not attacking christians whatsoever but would like to know).

Id love to know what other people think about this or is there even is an answer????

If God knows before you are even born or even thought of what you are going to do, how you going to live and what path you are going to take (Like the Bible states), why would he then punish you by sending you to hell if he knew that you were going to "betray" him and do wrong?

What sort of god would create a person knowing that they are no good just torture them????

I dont believe that any good god would do something like this ..... or even think of it.

This made me wonder if the Bible is for real, and the "Truth" as most christians would put it.

Is heaven and hell then real or just a fairy tale just like the Bible?

~*~

Probably just a fairy tale, a convenient fabrication created to manage behavior of believers.

And why would God give us Free Will if He just knows we will use it to act up?

He's sadistic, check the Old Testament for evidence.

AC had a better view on Free Will than JC, anyway: "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."

[GoddessWhispers]

I would disagree. It's not that simple. The god people understand, is contained in books that claim if one doesn't accept the god contained therein, they're doomed. There is no free will, in the domain of omniscience. There is no free choice, when that foreknowledge determines salvation or damnation. One can choose to accept god or be damned for eternity. So says god, that also said his laws are written on the hearts of every human being. So if that's true, how can one be condemned for not acknowledging that which god installed within!?

[BlueMoods]

I've asked the same. Free will isn't the answer - is it really free will if God already knows the choices you will make? I've never been able to solve that catch 22. God creates a person, knowing they will chose not to believe or accept Him, claims to give them the freedom to chose, yet He knows how they will chose before they even exist and brings them into life anyway, knowing eternal damnation will be thier fate. Still God is supposed to be a loving heavenly father. (Yes I am Christian and playing devil's advocate here to illustrate a point) I don't think there is a logical, completely satisfactory answer to this one, only that God knows what is needed for this world and has a reason beyond our understanding.

[+Link of Hyrule]

I'll try answering this one to the best of my ability. Of course, I'm guessing a few other Christians might give you different responses but this is how I see it. But before I can answer your question I need to clear up a little misconception, and that is the nature of hell. Though there are churches that teach Hell as a fire-and-brimestone place of torture, but this is not a biblical teaching. Hell is the grave. It is where our bodies are destined to go, unless we're cremated when we die - which is a little ironic since in order to be spared from Hell (the grave) you need to be put through a fiery furnace

Anywho, the biblical evidence for hell as a pit of torture is minimal. There are a few verses that allude to such, but they are mostly parables or mixed in with highly symbolic imagery (in Revelation, for example). The Bible also provides other imagery for hell, apart from fire - barren wastelands, Darkness, Coldness (yes, coldness - puts a dampener on the idea of fire). There is a place of pain and suffering set aside (according to Revelation), but this place is not for any mortal, but for the devil. No human ever goes here. Humans that have not accepted Christ are destined for the Second Death, which is not a place of torture, but a..... surprise, surprise - Second Death. Nothingness. *note that CHristians do differ on the specifics of hell - though this is my opinion, there are other valid interpretations of what Hell is (eternity separated from God being a rather common belief that does ahve scriptural backing). I'm mainly pointing out that a place of torture is not a valid interpretation, not being based in any way on a true and concise reading of the Bible.

Now that this misconception has been looked at, I can now go about attempting to answer your question (sorry for the length of that intro). You are quite correct in that God knows everythign we are going to do, and even planned these things for us. Many Christians are distracted by the concept of free will, that God cannot have planned our life, because that would interfere with free will. I maintain that scripturally speaking, free will does not exist, so it makes it easier for me to answer this. That said, the scriptural answer to your question can be found in Romans 9. Paul is answering just this question - if God knows all, then why does god still punish us if we do wrong?. It will not be a satisfactory answer for a non-Christian, but it's the only answer the Bible gives.

One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory

Romans 9:19-23

In a nutshell, the writer of Romans (Paul) answers this by drawing on an analogy that would have been well understood in those days. The potter can make from the clay a pot for noble purpose (say an ornamental vase), or for common purpose (a chamber pot, maybe). The pot has no say in the matter, and the pot has no right to complain if it doesn't like the way it is made. Then Paul drops the analogy and gives a direct answer - what if God made some destined for destruction to show the riches of his glory to those he also prepared for salvation.

This sounds awfully sadistic, and this was why I took pains in the opening section of my post to discuss the idea of hell. If we take the idea of hell as a place of torment, then it would most definitely be a heinous act (from our point of view, at least). But if what awaits is not eternal punishment but a Second Death, a complete Nothingness (this concept brings comfort to many atheists who like the idea that this life is all there is), then the impact is not as great.

As I said, you're not going to like this answer. It's not an answer many like to hear (heck, I sometimes don't like this answer either), but it's the only one the Bible gives.

Regards, PA

[randomhit10]

you are given the responsibility to decide for yourself...God knows what will happen based on the path you choose...God warns us about the possible outcome of our choices but He leaves the decision of our life in our hands...you decide, i decide.

randomhit10

[sbradj]

While I was growing up I was lead to believe that God (the christian god) was a good god but soon changed due to a thought that stayed with me and I questioned. Christians couldnt and can not even back up their holy book and answer my question .... and those that have tried have failed. They run off the subject and try to replace it with things that still dont answer the question or that are irrelevant. (Im not attacking christians whatsoever but would like to know).

Id love to know what other people think about this or is there even is an answer????

If God knows before you are even born or even thought of what you are going to do, how you going to live and what path you are going to take (Like the Bible states), why would he then punish you by sending you to hell if he knew that you were going to "betray" him and do wrong?

What sort of god would create a person knowing that they are no good just torture them????

I dont believe that any good god would do something like this ..... or even think of it.

This made me wonder if the Bible is for real, and the "Truth" as most christians would put it.

Is heaven and hell then real or just a fairy tale just like the Bible?

~*~

unlike the rest of gods creations we do have free will...free will to serve him...free will not too..if you look at the bible as a fairy tell..then you will view heaven and hell such as....bible states every man everywhere will be called...many called few choosen....the few choosen goes back to free will..if we being called upon by god choose to seek him with all our heart then we will be the choosen if we however choose not to seek him after being called upon with our whole heart then we will not be one of the choosen...but again it is our free will to seek god ...once he calls, its upon ourselves the out come..as for hell the bible states of its excitence it was designed for satan and his followers...not for man..but the followers of satan shall join him in hell according to bible..weather its a parable or whatever.. luke 16:19-31..great example ...telling bout the torments of hell..that it is flame..23)and in hell he lift up his eyesbeing in torments and seeth araham afar off and lazarus in his bosom and he cried and said father abraham, have mercy on me and send lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue for I Am Tormented In This Flame...weather or not one beleives in heaven or hell in my opion one must first beleive in the bible and trust in it and beleive that it is gods word..eveyone beleives differently on hell....just my opoion anyway ....

[Staari]

Paranoid Android you may have a point with the "going to hell thing" or what it is .... It kinda makes alot of sense, however .... you are correct you cannot answer my question ..... and neither can the bible, I dont see why we "humans" may not know of our creator .... if there are no lies and nothing bad then why not??? Tis not that im a total non-believer ... somethings are true mind you! But thanks for the attempt at least now im sitting with a great version of hell!

randomhit10 and sbradj ... you guys missed the point of conversation completely .... you have just spun around in circles and we are back at the same original question .... which is still not answered. But thanks for the attempt anyway.

~*~

[Staari]

Because He gave you free will. In His own words 'I will see who among your race loves or abhors Me' with regards to free will. What He wants is you to love Him of your own free will. It's that simple.

But he knows before he creates us who is going to love him and who not .... why does he create those which he knows are not going to love him to just punish them ..... why??? why??? why????

~*~

[randomhit10]

But he knows before he creates us who is going to love him and who not .... why does he create those which he knows are not going to love him to just punish them ..... why??? why??? why????

~*~

the idea of reward and punishment is real...you will have one or the other. God chose this way and gave you the ability to decide because He does not want a bunch of robots programmed to worship Him. He knows what will happen according to the path we choose, we have a choice, we decide the high road or the low road. Even though He knows the outcome, i believe that He gives everyone the opportunity to come to Him, that someone who is probably going to fail may not.

randomhit10

Edited February 13, 2007 by randomhit10

[3rd rock resident alien]

Do you believe in 1 God?

Do you believe in more than 1 God?

A representative God from a council of many Gods?

Or no Gods except the teachings of your Mother or Father?

Either 1 of 3 above plus the teachings of your Mother or Father?

Who created your Mother and Father?

[Staari]

the idea of reward and punishment is real...you will have one or the other. God chose this way and gave you the ability to decide because He does not want a bunch of robots programmed to worship Him. He knows what will happen according to the path we choose, we have a choice, we decide the high road or the low road. Even though He knows the outcome, i believe that He gives everyone the opportunity to come to Him, that someone who is probably going to fail may not.

randomhit10

The Bible sais that He knows before you are created ...... why would He create someone that He knows will not follow Him????? He knows He is creating someone that He is going to punish for not following Him!!!! Why??? The question is not answered!!!

Do you believe in 1 God?

Do you believe in more than 1 God?

A representative God from a council of many Gods?

Or no Gods except the teachings of your Mother or Father?

Either 1 of 3 above plus the teachings of your Mother or Father?

Who created your Mother and Father?

Er .... what is your point???? What has this got to do with the question????

~*~

[Nova Scotia]

Here is a essay On hell fire that I beleave does a good job on addressing all other beleafs .

http://www.borntowin.net/newsite/LearningC...who=e&id=21

I don't think God Knows who is saved and lost before they are Born . He knows who he is choseing at times before they are Born .

But they have to be judged to be saved . He probly knows who he plans to recieve his Spirit alot of times in advance .

The church of God has a entirely different opinion on the plan of God . Maybe those of you that question the God of the bible should look at it before they throw God out and chose a Godless life or a life in a faith outside the God of the bible . I beleave with a full understanding of the bible no other plan or no other God would ever be considered .

Here is a couple links I think will really help people understand and accept the God of the Scriptures .

http://www.borntowin.net/newsite/LearningC...who=e&id=41

http://www.garnertedarmstrong.ws/pubs/godsseas.htm

http://www.garnertedarmstrong.ws/pubs/yourdestiny.htm

http://www.garnertedarmstrong.ws/pubs/whyborn.htm

I just think with a little education and the God of the bible will be the only one you would ever want .

[brave_new_world]

The Bible sais that He knows before you are created ...... why would He create someone that He knows will not follow Him????? He knows He is creating someone that He is going to punish for not following Him!!!! Why??? The question is not answered!!!

Er .... what is your point???? What has this got to do with the question????

~*~

Starri I suggest you go to the Hinduism thread. People forget that there are more versions of understanding God than the western view. Hinduism, the sufis, Mahayana Buddhist (no God but a universal mind which in essence is the same thing) etc...

The fact that there are sooooooooo many bible threads and arguments and debates over what is morally or spiritually right according to the bible, goes to show that the bible is more symbolic and less literal than alot of people are willing to admit.

The simple pure message of the bible can be summed up in one simple, pure message. And that is:

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and Great commandment. And the second is like unto it, thou shalt love thy neightbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Whether you think this has to be expressed through a strict adherence of the ten commandments or whether to the best of your ability according to the best of what you know and feel. I think it doesn't really matter. Everyone has a general decent idea of what is right and wrong and knows what a good or bad conscience is.

Also let me show you a piece of writing about Christianity that was written at least over a hundred years ago by a good Christian:

If you, illustrious Prince (the words were addressed to the Duke of Wurtemberg) had informed your subjects that you were coming to visit them at an unnamed time, and requested them to be prepared in white garments to meet you at your coming, what would you do if on arrival you should find that, instead of robing themselves in white, they had spent their time in violent debate about your person--some insisting that you were in France, others that you were in Spain; some declaring that you would come on horseback, others that you would come by chariot; some holding that you would come with great pomp and others that you would come without any train or following?

And what especially would you say if they debated not only with words, but with blows of fist and sword strokes, and if some succeeded in killing and destroying others who differed from them? "He will come on horseback." "No, he will not; it will be by chariot." "You lie." "I do not; you are the liar." "Take that"--a blow with the fist. "Take that"---a sword thrust through the body. Prince, what would you think of such citizens? Christ asked us to put on the white robes of a pure and holy life; but what occupies our thoughts? We dispute not only of the way to Christ, but of his relation to God the Father, of the Trinity, of predestination, of free will, of the nature of God, of the angels,of the condition of the soul after death--of a multitude of matters that are not essential to salvation; matters, moreover, which can never be known until our hearts are pure; for they are things which must be spiritually perceived.

-----Sebastion Castellio

If you read the whole thing, you will find that nothing much has changed, even today. Infact it is quite clearly reflected in unexplained myserties dot com.Other than the physical violence (cause we are online)look how much debate and argument over who has the right interpretation of the bible? Or who understands it better in whatever context? I too have been guilty of this.

Funny how so many christians in here say that Christianity is the "right religion" and yet Christianity has had more religious wars than any other in recorded history. How many religious wars have been fought in the name of Hinduism?? I dont know but apparantly very little. There has been no war in history yet that has been fought in the name of Buddhism or based on the Buddhist Doctrine.

Funny that. Hinayanist Buddhism doesn't believe in God and hasn't had a religious war or been involved in a religious war, yet Christianity which states that there can only be a God has had the most and been involved in the most.

How ironic.

And all of the Christian wars that have been fought over whatever issue is all because they couldn;t keep the two most important and simple commandments in the ENTIRE bible.

If it wern't so tragic it would be uproariously funny!@!

By the way I am a Christian.

Oh by the way, an ancient chinese sage once said this Right is not right; so is not so. If right were really right it would differ so clearly from not right that there would be no need for argument. If so were really so, it would differ so clearly from not so that there would be no need for argument.

Is the Bible stated in a manner in which right is so right that there is no argument???? I think it is too self-evident, so I wont insult anyones intelligences.

Edited February 13, 2007 by brave_new_world

[brave_new_world]

While I was growing up I was lead to believe that God (the christian god) was a good god but soon changed due to a thought that stayed with me and I questioned. Christians couldnt and can not even back up their holy book and answer my question .... and those that have tried have failed. They run off the subject and try to replace it with things that still dont answer the question or that are irrelevant. (Im not attacking christians whatsoever but would like to know).

Id love to know what other people think about this or is there even is an answer????

If God knows before you are even born or even thought of what you are going to do, how you going to live and what path you are going to take (Like the Bible states), why would he then punish you by sending you to hell if he knew that you were going to "betray" him and do wrong?

What sort of god would create a person knowing that they are no good just torture them????

I dont believe that any good god would do something like this ..... or even think of it.

This made me wonder if the Bible is for real, and the "Truth" as most christians would put it.

Is heaven and hell then real or just a fairy tale just like the Bible?

~*~

No soul ever gets punished because the soul itself is God.

[IamsSon]

While I was growing up I was lead to believe that God (the christian god) was a good god but soon changed due to a thought that stayed with me and I questioned. Christians couldnt and can not even back up their holy book and answer my question .... and those that have tried have failed. They run off the subject and try to replace it with things that still dont answer the question or that are irrelevant. (Im not attacking christians whatsoever but would like to know).

Id love to know what other people think about this or is there even is an answer????

If God knows before you are even born or even thought of what you are going to do, how you going to live and what path you are going to take (Like the Bible states), why would he then punish you by sending you to hell if he knew that you were going to "betray" him and do wrong?

What sort of god would create a person knowing that they are no good just torture them????

I dont believe that any good god would do something like this ..... or even think of it.

This made me wonder if the Bible is for real, and the "Truth" as most christians would put it.

Is heaven and hell then real or just a fairy tale just like the Bible?

~*~

Because He gave you free will and you choose to disobey and although He provides payment for your sins, He leaves it up to you to decide to accept it. Are you willing to take responsibility for your actions or do you expect Mommy to come and clean up your messes for you?

[randomhit10]

The Bible sais that He knows before you are created ...... why would He create someone that He knows will not follow Him????? He knows He is creating someone that He is going to punish for not following Him!!!! Why??? The question is not answered!!!

Yes, He knows the outcome but He gives you the choice of outcomes. He knows the outcome if you go left (saved) or right (unsaved). He knows the outcome based on the choice you make. you make the choice, He has not made the choice for you ahead of time. that is the answer.

randomhit10

[3rd rock resident alien]

God is Alien. You are a 80 percent clone of the Aliens.

[brave_new_world]

Yes, He knows the outcome but He gives you the choice of outcomes. He knows the outcome if you go left (saved) or right (unsaved). He knows the outcome based on the choice you make. you make the choice, He has not made the choice for you ahead of time. that is the answer.

randomhit10

So if God knows that im about to make a bad choice (cause he can already see the outcome) before I have made the choice, then I can choose the opposite and contradict the knowledge of God???

Edited February 13, 2007 by brave_new_world

[Staari]

I don't think God Knows who is saved and lost before they are Born . He knows who he is choseing at times before they are Born .

But they have to be judged to be saved . He probly knows who he plans to recieve his Spirit alot of times in advance .

The church of God has a entirely different opinion on the plan of God . Maybe those of you that question the God of the bible should look at it before they throw God out and chose a Godless life or a life in a faith outside the God of the bible . I beleave with a full understanding of the bible no other plan or no other God would ever be considered .

I just think with a little education and the God of the bible will be the only one you would ever want .

The Bible sais He knows before you are born .... Your answers do not answer my question ..... Or is it that The Bible and its followers is lying???? It would seem so!

I would believe however that he does say who receives the Spirit and who not and who is chosen and so forth ... I have read the entire Bible and may I add .... studied it for a while ..... i have 3 different copies of it too. I take of various religions that which I understand .... that which is good .... that which I feel and see as true (which mind you are of the Christian faith aswell) .... and apply it to my life ... it works well and I feel balanced. I do not live a godless life but I cannot believe in one which will deliberatly create just to punish. THAT IS WRONG!!!!

Starri I suggest you go to the Hinduism thread. People forget that there are more versions of understanding God than the western view. Hinduism, the sufis, Mahayana Buddhist (no God but a universal mind which in essence is the same thing) etc...

Also let me show you a piece of writing about Christianity that was written at least over a hundred years ago by a good Christian:

If you, illustrious Prince (the words were addressed to the Duke of Wurtemberg) had informed your subjects that you were coming to visit them at an unnamed time, and requested them to be prepared in white garments to meet you at your coming, what would you do if on arrival you should find that, instead of robing themselves in white, they had spent their time in violent debate about your person--some insisting that you were in France, others that you were in Spain; some declaring that you would come on horseback, others that you would come by chariot; some holding that you would come with great pomp and others that you would come without any train or following?

And what especially would you say if they debated not only with words, but with blows of fist and sword strokes, and if some succeeded in killing and destroying others who differed from them? "He will come on horseback." "No, he will not; it will be by chariot." "You lie." "I do not; you are the liar." "Take that"--a blow with the fist. "Take that"---a sword thrust through the body. Prince, what would you think of such citizens? Christ asked us to put on the white robes of a pure and holy life; but what occupies our thoughts? We dispute not only of the way to Christ, but of his relation to God the Father, of the Trinity, of predestination, of free will, of the nature of God, of the angels,of the condition of the soul after death--of a multitude of matters that are not essential to salvation; matters, moreover, which can never be known until our hearts are pure; for they are things which must be spiritually perceived.

-----Sebastion Castellio

I must say what you have written is pretty good and I personally give you credit .... you have a point and it does make a person think ..... that is why I take of various religions ....

It does not answer my question though: He knows He is creating someone that He is going to punish for not following Him!!!! Why???

Thank you!

~*~

[IamsSon]

So if God knows that im about to make a bad choice (cause he can already see the outcome) before I have made the choice, then I can choose the opposite and contradict the knowledge of God???

God knows what you are going to do. How this works exactly is beyond our ability to know since He doesn't reveal it, but there are several ways we can picture it. PLEASE NOTE I'm not saying this is HOW, I'm just saying this is a possibility of how.

I'm sure we've all heard of Schroedinger's Cat as an explanation of what happens at the quantum level. You take a cat put it in a box with a bottle of a highly toxic substance then you close the box. If the cat stays away from the bottle he will be fine, if he knocks the bottle over, noxious gases will be distributed in the box and the cat will die. From our perspective outside the box, both possibilities are real, the cat is dead and the cat is alive, until we open the box, both options are completely real and true, once we open the box we make one of the options real and cancel the other one completely. We have no way of knowing which possibility is real until we decide. God sees our lives the same way, although we only know the outcome of the decisions we do make, God knows both outcomes so, there is no way for you to contradict His knowledge, He knows what you did no matter which decision you make.

[3rd rock resident alien]

God does not care. He chooses no sides. Humans are left to decide for themselves and to search for the truth of who is God. If you believe in God you should do good. If you don't, you should do good too.

[Staari]

God is Alien. You are a 80 percent clone of the Aliens.

LOL!!! Annunakai!!!!!!

You are weird!!!

~*~

[Staari]

God knows what you are going to do. How this works exactly is beyond our ability to know since He doesn't reveal it, but there are several ways we can picture it. PLEASE NOTE I'm not saying this is HOW, I'm just saying this is a possibility of how.

I'm sure we've all heard of Schroedinger's Cat as an explanation of what happens at the quantum level. You take a cat put it in a box with a bottle of a highly toxic substance then you close the box. If the cat stays away from the bottle he will be fine, if he knocks the bottle over, noxious gases will be distributed in the box and the cat will die. From our perspective outside the box, both possibilities are real, the cat is dead and the cat is alive, until we open the box, both options are completely real and true, once we open the box we make one of the options real and cancel the other one completely. We have no way of knowing which possibility is real until we decide. God sees our lives the same way, although we only know the outcome of the decisions we do make, God knows both outcomes so, there is no way for you to contradict His knowledge, He knows what you did no matter which decision you make.

A possibility ....

~*~