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Get rid of the Constitution


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#46    questionmark

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 07:17 PM

View Post-Mr_Fess-, on 28 January 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

No that's wrong. Maybe only to himself and a few others. If and when that day ever comes it will be decided and enacted by vast masses of people. Revolutions need massive support and won't happen by the words or actions of the fringe.

Doubt that, is Pinochet a known term for you?

View Postpallidin, on 28 January 2013 - 07:07 PM, said:

Mr_Fess,

For no disrespect, but, when I see the word "liberals" or any party affiliation in a post, it disturbes me greatly.
I see no truly functional use in partisan politics.

It just prolonges the suffering of American's that need action from Congressional concensus without pork-barrel/ self-interest crap.
But no, they have to argue stupid "bill rider's" having NOTHING to do with the original bill.

Makes me sick. Line Item Veto, I say.

Start a petition if it is that important to you.

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#47    F3SS

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 07:18 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 28 January 2013 - 07:16 PM, said:

Doubt that, is Pinochet a known term for you?
No. It sounds very French but something tells me it's common sense American history that you're about to rub in my face.

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#48    questionmark

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 07:23 PM

View Post-Mr_Fess-, on 28 January 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:

No. It sounds very French but something tells me it's common sense American history that you're about to rub in my face.

It is Chilean, and yes, it is part of the larger US-American history (one of those parts we rather not mention). Besides, if you have a wast majority you don't need any revolutions. You just need to vote the other idiots out.

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#49    F3SS

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 07:34 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 28 January 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

It is Chilean, and yes, it is part of the larger US-American history (one of those parts we rather not mention). Besides, if you have a wast majority you don't need any revolutions. You just need to vote the other idiots out.
I completely get that. A lot of what I say about this revolution stuff comes from an IF and WHEN pov. I'm not up for revolting now or hopefully ever. I will use my vote until it truly doesn't count and I don't mean being in a minority voting demographic. I mean when it isn't counted any longer. The only other thing that I believe constitutes a revolt is if when constitutional amendments are repealed without the proper process, ie a big executive FU.
Sure sometimes I flare up and say that's it I'm ready but I cool off after a few minutes.
From a quick browse of Pinochet it seems that he became leader after a revolution and was likely no better than any other iron fist ruler. Is that your point? That a revolution may not garner the results you expect? If so, I get that too. I also get that there would be a great many sociopaths out there with their own power dreams at the top of their list of goals. It's not an easy thing that revolting stuff. In a case for our own revolt I would hope that it's about restoring the constitution and not creating a new one. My revolution means back to basics. Hopefully that would be the sediment.

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#50    F3SS

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 07:35 PM

Ahh, it seems we helped Pinochet out...

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 07:36 PM

View Post-Mr_Fess-, on 28 January 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

Ahh, it seems we helped Pinochet out...

That is putting it mildly.

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#52    F3SS

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 07:37 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 28 January 2013 - 07:36 PM, said:

That is putting it mildly.
Well was I right about you're point? What I believed was your point....

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#53    questionmark

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 07:50 PM

View Post-Mr_Fess-, on 28 January 2013 - 07:37 PM, said:

Well was I right about you're point? What I believed was your point....

My point is that this guy had about 10,000 loyal military and the CIA, Allende had been voted in by the majority of Chileans (don't remember how big the population was). Revolutions are generally made by minorities (yes, the founding fathers were a minority compared to the rest of the United Kingdom) and generally end in changing the system to the contrary of what it was (i.e. Democracies into Dictatorships and vice versa) or in parts of the population separating themselves from the rest (i.e. The US of A from the United Kingdom).

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#54    WoIverine

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 08:18 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 27 January 2013 - 08:04 PM, said:

So, we get rid of the constitution to replace it with what exactly?

Ever see someone who was highly educated...but didn't have common sense enough to open a door prior to walking through it? I give you Louis Michael Seidman. Louis, let's begin by revoking your first amendment rights.


#55    F3SS

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 08:21 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 28 January 2013 - 07:50 PM, said:

My point is that this guy had about 10,000 loyal military and the CIA, Allende had been voted in by the majority of Chileans (don't remember how big the population was). Revolutions are generally made by minorities (yes, the founding fathers were a minority compared to the rest of the United Kingdom) and generally end in changing the system to the contrary of what it was (i.e. Democracies into Dictatorships and vice versa) or in parts of the population separating themselves from the rest (i.e. The US of A from the United Kingdom).
Alright. I see you're points. Guess I just have a vision of how things should play out. I think more along the lines of a restoration than a revolution I guess. Charlie Manson had a vision too. His was a revolution. And no, I don't care for his vision.

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 08:38 PM

Revolutions occur when the peoples needs are not being met.  This means access to food, clothing, shelter and basic human rights.  When people loose hope they will rebel.

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#57    AsteroidX

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 08:42 PM

Thats a false statement.

Declaration on Independence (a Revolution of significance around here)

Quote

IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.


He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.
He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.
He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences
For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:
For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.
Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our Brittish brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.
We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.
The 56 signatures on the Declaration appear in the positions indicated:
Column 1
Georgia:
   Button Gwinnett
   Lyman Hall
   George Walton
Column 2
North Carolina:
   William Hooper
   Joseph Hewes
   John Penn
South Carolina:
   Edward Rutledge
   Thomas Heyward, Jr.
   Thomas Lynch, Jr.
   Arthur Middleton
Column 3
Massachusetts:
John Hancock
Maryland:
Samuel Chase
William Paca
Thomas Stone
Charles Carroll of Carrollton
Virginia:
George Wythe
Richard Henry Lee
Thomas Jefferson
Benjamin Harrison
Thomas Nelson, Jr.
Francis Lightfoot Lee
Carter Braxton
Column 4
Pennsylvania:
   Robert Morris
   Benjamin Rush
   Benjamin Franklin
   John Morton
   George Clymer
   James Smith
   George Taylor
   James Wilson
   George Ross
Delaware:
   Caesar Rodney
   George Read
   Thomas McKean
Column 5
New York:
   William Floyd
   Philip Livingston
   Francis Lewis
   Lewis Morris
New Jersey:
   Richard Stockton
   John Witherspoon
   Francis Hopkinson
   John Hart
   Abraham Clark
Column 6
New Hampshire:
   Josiah Bartlett
   William Whipple
Massachusetts:
   Samuel Adams
   John Adams
   Robert Treat Paine
   Elbridge Gerry
Rhode Island:
   Stephen Hopkins
   William Ellery
Connecticut:
   Roger Sherman
   Samuel Huntington
   William Williams
   Oliver Wolcott
New Hampshire:
   Matthew Thornton



#58    questionmark

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 08:51 PM

View PostAsteroidX, on 28 January 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

Thats a false statement.

Declaration on Independence (a Revolution of significance around here)

Let's see, population of the first British Empire ~ 1770 around 50 millions, population of the American colonies at the same time around 2.1 millions.... I fail to see a majority there...

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#59    AsteroidX

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 08:54 PM

It does not take a majority to be revolutionary. Only unyielding determination.

(and my comment wasnt directed at you Q this time like the y so often are on this topic :innocent: )

Edited by AsteroidX, 28 January 2013 - 08:56 PM.


#60    questionmark

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 08:57 PM

View PostAsteroidX, on 28 January 2013 - 08:54 PM, said:

It does not take a majority to be revolutionary. Only unyielding determination.

And that is my point, so the question is: If you want to have a revolution in the US what is going to be the end of it? In the best of cases a separation of territories, in the worst a dictatorship. Because right now there seems to be no majority to change the system, if there was, the system would be changed through the normal electoral process.

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