Congregants take a stand against Cyrstal

[+Sherapy]

GARDEN GROVE (CBS) — Choir members at the Crystal Cathedral are upset over something they've been asked to sign. It's a covenant about homosexuality, and the members say it tells them they should commit to being Christians by following the Bible in every way, including one section that says they must acknowledge that marriage can only occur between a man and a woman.

Some members are complaining that the covenant is anti-gay.

But Pastor Sheila Schuller Coleman, daughter of cathedral founder Robert Schuller, says the document only clarifies what is expected of them as ministry leaders.

Still, she issued an apology saying, "We are sincerely sorry. Those of us in church leadership ask for understanding as we seek to obey God and love his children."

Some members say they will quit if forced to sign the covenant.

http://losangeles.cb...i-gay-covenant/

This is caught my attention on the Christian radio station I listen to all the time in the Los Angeles area, on The Frank Pastorie Show.

The show was defending the Church of course, it is Christian radio after all, but I thought good for the members, the very brave Christians who do not want to be a part of anything that is anti- gay.

IMO this is how change starts !

I have other friends who did this in their Mormon ward when asked to go door to door and spread anti gay pamphlets. They opted out. They said they would not be a part of this because all it accomplished was harm to gays for no reason.

Thoughts everyone?

Edited March 19, 2011 by Sherapy

[shadowhive]

What a horrible thing to make people sign. I think it's appalling they'd try this.

I assure you that not a single Christian anywhere follows the bible 'in every way'. No one does.

Christians should just abandon the homophobia it just leads to hate and intolerance, which does them an immense disservice which serves absolutely no purpose.

[+Sherapy]

What a horrible thing to make people sign. I think it's appalling they'd try this.

I assure you that not a single Christian anywhere follows the bible 'in every way'. No one does.

Christians should just abandon the homophobia it just leads to hate and intolerance, which does them an immense disservice which serves absolutely no purpose.

I agree with this and wonder why they just don't? IMO as a culture this is the direction we have taken anyways, if this persists ( as there is no valid reason anymore, every one that has been used has been shown to be invalid.) wouldn't they run the risk of losing all credibility?

On one hand they pledge to refrain from divisiveness yet on the other hand the beliefs they cling to generate it.

Perhaps this is the start of a positive and inclusive direction for the Christian community.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Sherapy

[Sthenno]

I don't see them handing out forms to sign forms stating their commitment to the belief that sex before marriage is a sin. No, they manage to gloss over that part of the bible quite nicely because they know it's not relevant in modern times. They don't actively condone it, but nor do they go out of their way to tell people it's a sin. So why the focus on homosexuality? It's blatant prejudice, and more people like this need to speak out about it.

[shadowhive]

I agree with this and wonder why they just don't? IMO as a culture this is the direction we have taken anyways, if this persists ( as there is no valid reason anymore, every one that has been used has been shown to be invalid.) wouldn't they run the risk of losing all credibility?

On one hand they pledge to refrain from divisiveness yet on the other hand the beliefs they cling to generate it.

Perhaps this is the start of a positive and inclusive direction for the Christian community.

Honestly I ahve no idea. They seem to be dragging their heels on this and why? They don't even given anything close to a logical reason. Eventually it will result in a total loss of credibility I think.

Exactly, I just don't understand that.

We can but hope.

I don't see them handing out forms to sign forms stating their commitment to the belief that sex before marriage is a sin. No, they manage to gloss over that part of the bible quite nicely because they know it's not relevant in modern times. They don't actively condone it, but nor do they go out of their way to tell people it's a sin. So why the focus on homosexuality? It's blatant prejudice, and more people like this need to speak out about it.

Exactly!

On the one hand they say they should 'stick to biblical teachings' while on the other they blatantly ignore it. Homophobia seems to be the main thing that they cling to, though it serves no one any purpose whatsoever. (And you only have to look at Uganda to see how far some of them will go)

[Tiggs]

I agree with this and wonder why they just don't? IMO as a culture this is the direction we have taken anyways, if this persists ( as there is no valid reason anymore, every one that has been used has been shown to be invalid.) wouldn't they run the risk of losing all credibility?

From the Christian perspective - sticking to their beliefs regardless of the dictates of current Culture is vital for them to retain their integrity.

The word of God is unchanging, and all.

[+Sherapy]

I don't see them handing out forms to sign forms stating their commitment to the belief that sex before marriage is a sin. No, they manage to gloss over that part of the bible quite nicely because they know it's not relevant in modern times. They don't actively condone it, but nor do they go out of their way to tell people it's a sin. So why the focus on homosexuality? It's blatant prejudice, and more people like this need to speak out about it.

This is actually a very good point , because on The Frank Pastorie show on Wed. one of his questions was:

"Does the church still shun unwed mothers? We champion the pro-life arguments, but what happens within our own churches when one of our "good Christian girls" heeds our advice and chooses life? What's the appropriate level of disapproval we want to express? Would you put an unwed-mother's baby shower in the church bulletin? Enough that we're "loving," but not so much we encourage the behavior? Ladies, were you ever an unwed mother? Did you ever feel as though the church had placed upon you a scarlet letter? Did their rejection prod you toward the arms of Jesus, or was a deterrent to get involved in the church?"

http://frankpastore.blogspot.com/2011_03_01_archive.html

In my interpretation: The gist of the discussion by those that contributed was forgive and move forward and the girl was hailed for keeping the child.

In other words glossed over.

[Sthenno]

Exactly. The church has ways of dealing with tricky subjects like this without alienating people. The bible says sex outside marriage is a sin just as it says homosexuality is a sin, but they don't actively preach intolerance to it, and are supportive of unwed mothers - if they keep the baby. There seems to be a hierarchy of sin - premarital sex is not as bad as abortion which is not as bad as being gay - which has nothing to do with the bible.

[+Sherapy]

Honestly I ahve no idea. They seem to be dragging their heels on this and why? They don't even given anything close to a logical reason. Eventually it will result in a total loss of credibility I think.

Exactly, I just don't understand that.

We can but hope.

Exactly!

On the one hand they say they should 'stick to biblical teachings' while on the other they blatantly ignore it. Homophobia seems to be the main thing that they cling to, though it serves no one any purpose whatsoever. (And you only have to look at Uganda to see how far some of them will go)

That is my sentiment exactly I am at a loss as to why they just don't let go .

To continue is only gonna hurt their reputation, even .their own members are speaking out. I bet we see more of this. IMO

I say it could very well result in such a loss of integrity that they will end up as a fringe sect/cult of some kind.

That whatever may be beneficial i as as religion is obscured due to a need to be right, or a fear change, or worse the refusal to admit they are wrong.

I really don't get it.

[shadowhive]

From the Christian perspective - sticking to their beliefs regardless of the dictates of current Culture is vital for them to retain their integrity.

The word of God is unchanging, and all.

If the word of god is unchanging then logic dictates that every part of the bible should be followed. You know the parts that say it's ok to sacrifice animals, not to eat shellfish, not to be around women while they were menstration, not to wear clothing of more then one fabric. However I don't see Christians doing any of those things do you?

Christians are perfectly fine with picking and choosing which parts of the bible to follow and which parts to ignore. They do it every day. Homophobia is among the most useless (if not THE most useless) parts of all the major religions in that it serves no purpose other then to incite varying degrees of hatred and intolerance.

[+Sherapy]

From the Christian perspective - sticking to their beliefs regardless of the dictates of current Culture is vital for them to retain their integrity.

The word of God is unchanging, and all.

It concerns me for their sake.

Even their own members are drawing a line.

The homophobia has gone beyond a point, for me, that all I am left to conclude is this is on purpose and this is what Christianity does stand for, not love as they say but exclusivity.

That their own members spoke out stopped me cold...

What is going on here?

Edited March 19, 2011 by Sherapy

[+Sherapy]

Exactly. The church has ways of dealing with tricky subjects like this without alienating people. The bible says sex outside marriage is a sin just as it says homosexuality is a sin, but they don't actively preach intolerance to it, and are supportive of unwed mothers - if they keep the baby. There seems to be a hierarchy of sin - premarital sex is not as bad as abortion which is not as bad as being gay - which has nothing to do with the bible.

I agree, you have brought in an excellent point.

Why not extend that same forgiveness to those that are gay?

It doesn't make sense to me.

[shadowhive]

Exactly. The church has ways of dealing with tricky subjects like this without alienating people. The bible says sex outside marriage is a sin just as it says homosexuality is a sin, but they don't actively preach intolerance to it, and are supportive of unwed mothers - if they keep the baby. There seems to be a hierarchy of sin - premarital sex is not as bad as abortion which is not as bad as being gay - which has nothing to do with the bible.

Very true. It's a shame really. They seem to have their priorities all skewed.

That is my sentiment exactly I am at a loss as to why they just don't let go .

To continue is only gonna hurt their reputation, even .their own members are speaking out. I bet we see more of this. IMO

I say it could very well result in such a loss of integrity that they will end up as a fringe sect/cult of some kind.

That whatever may be beneficial i as as religion is obscured due to a need to be right, or a fear change, or worse the refusal to admit they are wrong.

I really don't get it.

I'm sure they will eventually. The church is often the last to let things go. The church was the last organisation to give up it's slaes after all. The church is always out of step with everyone for some reason.

It will. I'm hoping this sentiment continues.

Yeah, most likely.

Religion can be a force for good. Look at the anti-gay marriage campaigns in America. Religious groups spent hundreds of millions on it. However the bible says to 'help your fellow man'. Think about how many people that money could have helped. The homeless, the sick, the genuinely needy. But no, they had to waste it on hate instead. It disgusts me.

[+Sherapy]

Very true. It's a shame really. They seem to have their priorities all skewed.

I'm sure they will eventually. The church is often the last to let things go. The church was the last organisation to give up it's slaes after all. The church is always out of step with everyone for some reason.

It will. I'm hoping this sentiment continues.

Yeah, most likely.

Religion can be a force for good. Look at the anti-gay marriage campaigns in America. Religious groups spent hundreds of millions on it. However the bible says to 'help your fellow man'. Think about how many people that money could have helped. The homeless, the sick, the genuinely needy. But no, they had to waste it on hate instead. It disgusts me.

Exactly, I reside in Calif. prop 8 the state and I followed this literally on the streets through the whole thing, it was huge here and so many spoke up. I would be places in hair salon, or whole foods, or Saks Fifth Avenue and conversations would ensue about why was our Christian community doing this.

They literally put a spotlight on themselves and said look at us we are hate mongers.

The money , don't get me started on that, gosh our skid row could of used it ..We have so many homeless.

Then the reasons they gave for doing this harming of g-d's children were lame and nonsensical to me. . .

Now of course it was overturned and will be going to the supreme court, but the amount of money wasted on hate mongering is staggering and sad for me.

Gosh my heart hurts thinking of those that have been hurt because of this.

I still struggle to understand.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Sherapy

[ChloeB]

GARDEN GROVE (CBS) — Choir members at the Crystal Cathedral are upset over something they've been asked to sign. It's a covenant about homosexuality, and the members say it tells them they should commit to being Christians by following the Bible in every way, including one section that says they must acknowledge that marriage can only occur between a man and a woman.

Some members are complaining that the covenant is anti-gay.

But Pastor Sheila Schuller Coleman, daughter of cathedral founder Robert Schuller, says the document only clarifies what is expected of them as ministry leaders.

Still, she issued an apology saying, "We are sincerely sorry. Those of us in church leadership ask for understanding as we seek to obey God and love his children."

Some members say they will quit if forced to sign the covenant.

http://losangeles.cb...i-gay-covenant/

This is caught my attention on the Christian radio station I listen to all the time in the Los Angeles area, on The Frank Pastorie Show.

The show was defending the Church of course, it is Christian radio after all, but I thought good for the members, the very brave Christians who do not want to be a part of anything that is anti- gay.

IMO this is how change starts !

I have other friends who did this in their Mormon ward when asked to go door to door and spread anti gay pamphlets. They opted out. They said they would not be a part of this because all it accomplished was harm to gays for no reason.

Thoughts everyone?

That church is ridiculous. They were filing bankruptcy earlier this year.

http://www.ocregister.com/news/housing-282823-court-southard.html

The U.S. Trustee, an employee of the Department of Justice who works in an administrative capacity with the court, questioned the need for a $132,019 housing allowance for Southard. The trustee, backed by the creditors committee, also questioned the need for a $70,000 annual salary for Gretchen Penner, the youngest of four Schuller daughters, who produces the "Hour of Power" broadcasts. An objection was also filed to the $55,000 annual salary for Neyva Penner Klaassen, who helps schedule musical guests for "Hour of Power."

Documents filed in bankruptcy court also showed that Schuller family members received annual salaries totaling more than $2 million – about $834,000 in tax-exempt housing allowances.

The U.S. Trustee specifically questioned the need for Southard, who is not a family member, to serve as a chief financial officer when the church already has a full-time accounting staff. Southard, who draws a $12,000 annual salary and gets a $132,000 annual housing allowance, has been employed as the cathedral's CFO since 1978.

"There is no justification whatsoever for a housing allowance of this amount," the U.S. Trustee states in court documents. "Mr. Southard has failed to explain why such a housing allowance is necessary or appropriate, given this Debtor is in Chapter 11 and suffering financial difficulties."

The Garden Grove megachurch filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy Oct. 12 after a series of financial problems prompted officials to cut about 150 members of its staff, suspend its iconic "Glory of Christmas" and "Glory of Easter" pageants and sell off several assets including its retreat center in San Juan Capistrano.

The church is looking a $36 million mortgage and a total debt of nearly $60 million. The Cathedral owes about $7.5 million to unsecured creditors including many long-time vendors who provided services for the "Glory of Christmas" pageant.

I think that would have been enough for me to walk before they started trying to get them to sign these contracts. They've got bigger things to worry about than who marries who, which is none of their business. They need to take a look at themselves, taking honest people's money and squandering it and can't pay their bills.

[+Sherapy]

That church is ridiculous. They were filing bankruptcy earlier this year.

http://www.ocregiste...t-southard.html

I think that would have been enough for me to walk before they started trying to get them to sign these contracts. They've got bigger things to worry about than who marries who, which is none of their business. They need to take a look at themselves, taking honest people's money and squandering it and can't pay their bills.

Yepper's, Shelia Coleman thinks g-d is gonna give her church a miracle and save them from bankruptcy.

I think there is a can of scandal worms here that would curl my ears.

I just have a gut feeling things are not as they seem .I have a client who works for Fox News who keeps me abreast of what the public doesn't know tee hee. I can't wait to ask him.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Sherapy

[ChloeB]

Yepper's, Shelia Coleman thinks g-d is gonna give her church a miracle and save them from bankruptcy.

I think there is a can of scandal worms here that would curl my ears.

I just have a gut feeling things are not as they seem .I have a client who works for Fox News who keeps me abreast of what the public doesn't know tee hee. I can't wait to ask him.

Yeah, I saw it earlier this year and didn't even realize a church could file bankruptcy, that whole separation of church and state, and them not paying taxes, surprised me. They're just a bunch of hypocritical televangelist crooks. I don't know why anyone would listen to what they say as far as what God says is right and wrong; they're obviously lighting up several of the big 10 themselves. Go figure, why people give their money to them is beyond me.

[+Sherapy]

Yeah, I saw it earlier this year and didn't even realize a church could file bankruptcy, that whole separation of church and state, and them not paying taxes, surprised me. They're just a bunch of hypocritical televangelist crooks. I don't know why anyone would listen to what they say as far as what God says is right and wrong; they're obviously lighting up several of the big 10 themselves. Go figure, why people give their money to them is beyond me.

Your are correct they can't be forced to, but they can elect to on their own..It's not real common, but it does happen.

I learned a lot in Tax school when I became a CTEC certified Tax preparer, on the actual reality about tax exempt and non profit orgs..

it's a very interesting read ...In the event you were curious as to how it works.

I think it is interesting. But you are under no obligation to read it. Just a FYI thingy for my Chloe bear.

I'd actually like to see more rules placed on NP myself.

There is an actual list provided by the IRS if one cares for the churches that have NP status and who doesn't . You'd be surprised at how many don't do what is required to maintain this status. This was something that I would investigate if I was giving Donations/money to a church, but I bet few do. I'd also be following the Tax fraud listings too if I was a church member oy vey..

http://www.irs.gov/p...s-pdf/p1828.pdf

Edited March 19, 2011 by Sherapy

[shadowhive]

Exactly, I reside in Calif. prop 8 the state and I followed this literally on the streets through the whole thing, it was huge here and so many spoke up. I would be places in hair salon, or whole foods, or Saks Fifth Avenue and conversations would ensue about why was our Christian community doing this.

They literally put a spotlight on themselves and said look at us we are hate mongers.

The money , don't get me started on that, gosh our skid row could of used it ..We have so many homeless.

Then the reasons they gave for doing this harming of g-d's children were lame and nonsensical to me. . .

Now of course it was overturned and will be going to the supreme court, but the amount of money wasted on hate mongering is staggering and sad for me.

Gosh my heart hurts thinking of those that have been hurt because of this.

I still struggle to understand.

I know a few people over there and it just brke my heart that Prop 8 actually passed because f them.

It's absolutely ridiculous.

I'm so glad it was overturned. Hopefully the pointless DOMA will go next

Me too.

[+Sherapy]

I know a few people over there and it just brke my heart that Prop 8 actually passed because f them.

It's absolutely ridiculous.

I'm so glad it was overturned. Hopefully the pointless DOMA will go next

Me too.

I know SH mine too. But the good thing is their are Christians that do not want to be a part of hate mongering and will stand up and be counted and maybe many others will follow suit. I hope anyways.

Hopefully the pointless DOMA will go next

I think it is isn't it?

Talk about absurd.

I loved what the judge said in the prop 8 overturn ruling, if you ever get a chance give it a read.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/04/prop-8-ruling-read-the-fu_n_671050.html

It's really informative too.

[Beckys_Mom]

, the very brave Christians who do not want to be a part of anything that is anti- gay.

Really? wow

[+Sherapy]

Really? wow

I know, I was very pleased to hear this , the radio station was not supportive of these Christians of course,( geez they'll turn on their own in a hot second) but I sure think this is really kool.

[Beckys_Mom]

I know, I was very pleased to hear this , the radio station was not supportive of these Christians of course,( geez they'll turn on their own in a hot second) but I sure think this is really kool.

I'm more so shocked to hear it.. I feel like saying - ok proof please?

[+Sherapy]

I'm more so shocked to hear it.. I feel like saying - ok proof please?

ha ha ha ha ha

[Beckys_Mom]

ha ha ha ha ha

It sounded a bit derpy to me lol