Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -

Atheism Is Based On Faith?


GoddessWhispers

Recommended Posts

Atheism is Based on Faith?

From Austin Cline

Atheism Myths: Atheists Can't Disprove God & Have Faith in God's Nonexistence

Myth: You cannot prove that God doesn’t exist; therefore, atheism is based on faith.

Response:

Often theists will try to place atheism and theism on the same plane by arguing that while theists cannot prove that god exists, atheists also cannot prove that god does not exist. This is used as a basis for arguing that there is no objective means for determining which is preferable because neither has a logical or empirical advantage over the other. Thus, the only reason for going with one or the other is faith and then, presumably, the theist will argue that their faith is somehow better than the atheist’s faith.

This claim relies upon the erroneous assumption that all propositions are created equal and, because some cannot be conclusively proven, then therefore none can be conclusively disproven.

So, it is argued, the proposition “God exists” cannot be disproven.

But not all propositions are created equal. It is true that some cannot be disproven — for example, the claim “a black swan exists” cannot be disproven. To do so would require examining every spot in the universe to make sure that such a swan did not exist, and that simply isn’t possible.

Other propositions, however, can be disproven — and conclusively. There are two ways to do this. The first is to see if the proposition leads to a logical contradiction; if so, then the proposition must be false. Examples of this would be “a married bachelor exists” or “a square circle exists.” Both of these propositions entail logical contradictions — pointing this out is the same as disproving them.

If someone claims the existence of a god, the existence of which entails logical contradictions, then that god can be disproven the same way. Many atheological arguments do exactly that — for example they argue that an omnipotent and omniscient god cannot exist because those qualities lead to logical contradictions.

The second way to disprove a proposition is a bit more complicated. Consider the following two propositions:

1. Our solar system has a tenth planet.

2. Our solar system has a tenth planet with a mass of X and an orbit of Y.

Both propositions can be proven, but there is a difference when it comes to disproving them. The first could be disproven if someone were to examine all of the space between the sun and the outer limits of our solar system and found no new planets — but such a process is beyond our technology. So, for all practical purposes, it is not disprovable.

The second proposition, however, is disprovable with current technology. Knowing the specific information of mass and orbit, we can devise tests to determine if such an object exists — in other words, the claim is testable. If the tests repeatedly fail, then we can reasonably conclude that the object does not exist. For all intents and purposes, the proposition it disproven. This would not mean that no tenth planet exists. Instead, it means that this particular tenth planet, with this mass and this orbit, does not exist.

Similarly, when a god is defined adequately, it may be possible to construct empirical or logical tests to see if it exists. We can look, for example, at the expected effects which such a god might have on nature or humanity. If we fail to find those effects, then a god with that set of characteristics does not exist. Some other god with some other set of characteristics may exist, but this one has been disproven.

One example of this would be the Argument from Evil, an atheological argument which proposes to prove that an omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent god cannot exist alongside a world like ours which has so much evil in it. If successful, such an argument would not disprove the existence of some other god; it would instead merely disprove the existence of any gods with a particular set of characteristics.

Obviously disproving a god requires an adequate description of what it is and what characteristics it has in order to determine either if there is a logical contradiction or if any testable implications hold true. Without a substantive explanation of just what this god is, how can there be a substantive claim that this god is? In order to reasonably claim that this god matters, the believer must have substantive information regarding its nature and characteristics; otherwise, there is no reason for anyone to care.

Claiming that atheists “cannot prove that God does not exist” often relies upon the misunderstanding that atheists claim “God does not exist” and should prove this. In reality, atheists merely fail to accept the theists' claim “God exists” and, hence, the initial burden of proof lies with the believer. If the believer is unable to provide good reason to accept the existence of their god, it is unreasonable to expect the atheist to construct a disproof of it — or even care much about the claim in the first place.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 486
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • brave_new_world

    182

  • truethat

    79

  • Seraphina

    42

  • GoddessWhispers

    27

One thing I think that needs to stop happening is the one size fits all label of "God." If I were to say that I think the bible is a mythology not unlike Greek Mythology, then I'd say I am atheist towards this God.

I also consider Islam a mythology and Buddhism a mythology, and Native American Gods a mythology as well as Pagan and Wiccan beliefs. I consider all of these things a mythology.

If someone came along with evidence of a God outside that realm I'd be open to it, but based on the pattern of humans inventing Gods that don't exist as part of our cultural mythologies, I'd probably be very cynical.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In reality, atheists merely fail to accept the theists' claim “God exists” and, hence, the initial burden of proof lies with the believer. If the believer is unable to provide good reason to accept the existence of their god, it is unreasonable to expect the atheist to construct a disproof of it — or even care much about the claim in the first place.

I wouldn't for a moment suggest that any atheist should provide proof to a believer as to the non-existence of any god, but isn't there more to non-belief than simply not believing? I'm actually asking this simply because I'm interested in how an atheist becomes one, in much the same way as I'm interested in how a Christian becomes one.

I arrived at my beliefs based on an evaluation of the things around me, a weighing up of which is more likely - the existence of a creator or the non-existence of one. I know there's a lot of debate about the difference between the active belief that God doesn't exist and the absence of a belief in any god, but doesn't even an absence of belief come from something?

My mother is an atheist, and her belief that God doesn't exist (because that is what she believes... she isn't simply someone who doesn't believe in gods, she actively believes there is no God) comes from her inability to fathom (her own words) the idea of a God who is so powerful but chooses to allow mankind to behave as it does. She sees no evidence of miracles, creation, and all that... she believes that the idea that we all came from Adam and Eve is beyond bizarre and can't understand how any rational and educated person could arrive at a belief in that. She has spent some considerable time considering the options before arriving at her own atheism. She has complete faith that God doesn't exist.

So, as I said, I'm not suggesting that any atheist should be able to disprove the existence of any god, but wouldn't some thought of that be part of arriving at the lack of belief in a god?

I've never met anyone who was an atheist from childhood, so maybe this makes a difference? Every atheist I know came to be one after being brought up in a predominantly Christian household, which would suggest some form of choice rather than the mere total absence of faith in a god.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wouldn't for a moment suggest that any atheist should provide proof to a believer as to the non-existence of any god, but isn't there more to non-belief than simply not believing? I'm actually asking this simply because I'm interested in how an atheist becomes one, in much the same way as I'm interested in how a Christian becomes one.

I arrived at my beliefs based on an evaluation of the things around me, a weighing up of which is more likely - the existence of a creator or the non-existence of one. I know there's a lot of debate about the difference between the active belief that God doesn't exist and the absence of a belief in any god, but doesn't even an absence of belief come from something?

My mother is an atheist, and her belief that God doesn't exist (because that is what she believes... she isn't simply someone who doesn't believe in gods, she actively believes there is no God) comes from her inability to fathom (her own words) the idea of a God who is so powerful but chooses to allow mankind to behave as it does. She sees no evidence of miracles, creation, and all that... she believes that the idea that we all came from Adam and Eve is beyond bizarre and can't understand how any rational and educated person could arrive at a belief in that. She has spent some considerable time considering the options before arriving at her own atheism. She has complete faith that God doesn't exist.

So, as I said, I'm not suggesting that any atheist should be able to disprove the existence of any god, but wouldn't some thought of that be part of arriving at the lack of belief in a god?

I've never met anyone who was an atheist from childhood, so maybe this makes a difference? Every atheist I know came to be one after being brought up in a predominantly Christian household, which would suggest some form of choice rather than the mere total absence of faith in a god.

I've met Atheists that became so, after having horrific experiences in religious sector. Some attended church from the time they were brought there in the arms of their parents, most all their lives they were indoctrinated to believe. Some were sent to religious schools, like catholic school or some other denominations educational center. All were abused by the nuns, or the ministers, as forms of discipline and according to biblical admonitions.

Some that I've spoken with became Atheists when they reached an age where they could be considered a legal adult and their parents no longer could hold sway over their opinions or practices. As you mentioned with your mother, they said the religious ideologies that sought to explain all life and impart morality by a religious standard, simply didn't make sense or were so hypocritical that they couldn't allow themselves to hold blind faith and thereby abdicate their intellect to live a fiction and think that made them a good person.

I was raised in an Atheist family. Both sides (mom & dad) have been Atheists since our family record can recall. I think, for every Atheist, it's a matter of personal reflection and critical observation of theist philosophies and how those resonate to who one knows themselves to be.

My family and I have never taken issue with believers in our lives. We have a healthy sense of morality, we are compassionate, kind, good hearted, we're environmentalists, we're activists in various causes, and a few of us are attorneys and professionals in other fields of community service. I live in a former church, and if indeed Atheists had a "problem" with faith and religions, I don't think that would occur at all.

For me, besides how I was raised, I am at an age now wherein I can decide for myself what feels right. I'll never stop being Atheist, it's who I am. I can not abdicate my responsibilities for making my choices, unto the influence of mythological spirits, nor can I ever think I'll be saved from myself, or damned in myself, for believing in something that offers salvation or attends me in my damnation after my judgment by an alleged savior.

I know the mythologies of the religions and faiths of the world, and because they are precluded from ever communicating fact, I know that I can not accept superstition, fantasy, myth, fable, legends or the characters associated with those ideologies, as real. I can not worship or give homage to beings born from imagination, as if something called a soul depends on it. It simply, as you said of your mother, does not make sense to me. And while I respect people have a right to choose their own path, and believe as they see fit, I choose not to believe in any such thing as religion or spiritual faith. I simply do not need to follow, in order to lead my life. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Claiming that atheists “cannot prove that God does not exist” often relies upon the misunderstanding that atheists claim “God does not exist” and should prove this. In reality, atheists merely fail to accept the theists' claim “God exists” and, hence, the initial burden of proof lies with the believer. If the believer is unable to provide good reason to accept the existence of their god, it is unreasonable to expect the atheist to construct a disproof of it — or even care much about the claim in the first place.

There is nothing logical about faith, if there was a logical approach to faith, then it would no longer be faith. It is that more than anything else that makes any "constructive" discussion about this topic basically impossible. By definition, there is no way I can logically prove to you what I know to be true.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's an interesting intellectual argument - but it bases itself on being able to define god. If there is a god it is quite possible that god is beyond definition so the whole argument is invalidated.

IMO Atheism IS based on faith and is as much a religion (albeit with no central organisational body) as theist beliefs. I do not see theist faith as being 'stronger' than atheist faith simply because they base this faith on the existence of something.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you for that Goddess Whispers. You have a greater understanding of what you believe (or should I say don't believe?) than I do... stronger convictions and a better awareness of yourself I think. I am in a state of flux for the most part.

I can not abdicate my responsibilities for making my choices, unto the influence of mythological spirits, nor can I ever think I'll be saved from myself, or damned in myself, for believing in something that offers salvation or attends me in my damnation after my judgment by an alleged savior.

I can not worship or give homage to beings born from imagination, as if something called a soul depends on it.

I am of the same mind. I do not hold anyone responsible for my actions other than myself, I do not expect forgiveness for them or salvation, and I do not pay homage to a being for fear that my soul will be damned if I don't.

My mother does believe that she, as an atheist, has faith that God doesn't exist, but she also believes that all people are different and that she may be the only one in the world with her belief structure. Perhaps the point of conflict - do atheists have faith or not? - exists because we try to prove one way or the other that all atheists have faith, or don't have it. My mother does, and even if she is the exeption which proves the rule, she exists and therefore disproves the argument that all atheists are without faith.

Each individual's understanding of the word "faith" and how it applies to them is so different... I find this in itself to be fascinating. :yes:

Edited by Shadow_Hill
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would say that Atheism is based on the lack of faith! On pure examination of the physical evidence. Not being an Atheist (or, as most know a Christian) that is not my belief, but to each their own.... :yes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's an interesting intellectual argument - but it bases itself on being able to define god. If there is a god it is quite possible that god is beyond definition so the whole argument is invalidated.

Atheism is from the Greek, meaning, "without god" A-"without" , "theos" = "god". A-theism =without god.

In another post I linked an article defining strong and weak Atheism. Strong Atheism simply means there is no deity, no god, no supernatural force at work to create or articulate it's existence as that responsible for all that exists. Strong Atheists do not believe in any known god forms, nor do they believe there is anything that can be construed as such. Weak Atheists do not believe in the known god forms, nor do they expect to ever accept any god forms they may hear about later. (excerpt) Weak atheists are also open to the idea that there is some driving force that keeps the universe in motion but that force is not a divine being.

Often times people believe that Atheism is a belief system in and of itself. Sometimes those ideologies are derived by people that seem almost obsessed with the definition of "belief" so much so as to imply everyone that believes anything is a member of a faith based philosophy. And that would thereby imply it is tantamount to a religious kinship, in and of itself. And I think, (notice the "I think" so it's not speaking for anyone else, nor is it based on studies, empirical evidence etc...), that Atheism is not in any way a faith based philosophy. I do not have faith there is no such being some call god. I know there is not. I know that all things that allude to such a creation are in and of themselves articles of faith. And that, by definition, precludes fact. People believe in god because they're told first what god is, what it means to hold faith in such a creative force, a sentient creature that empathizes with it's human creations. They read myths perpetrated by centuries old scribes, and accept that as evidence the being those passages describe, exists. That doesn't mean it does, it means that one must have faith that it does. It's not proof, it's trust in the word that calls something god and attaches to that identity the powers necessary for making everything that is or ever shall be.

When I meet religious people, I meet flesh and blood, not fable. I meet human beings, just like me, that live their life by a creed, an article of trust, there is some invisible sky father or mother, that cares about them. And then I watch and I learn from their example of their faith, what they make that god or goddess to be, in their living by the standard they think defines who they are and what it means to be religious, for insight into exactly what their god is, by their example.

I once had a man that thought himself very religious. The fact I was an Atheist irked him to no end. Why, was beyond me because we were not responsible for living each others lives, we didn't really know one another save meeting in a forum on-line. But this man, took exception with me and in his zeal as one religious, he stalked , harassed, verbally abused , because he wanted me to alter something of myself, to his approval. And he in as much as said, until I did, he would not stop! The Moderators on the forum , normally very good at policing such bully tactics, let this man slide. Because they knew him. And so, this man, this person who imagined himself religious, exampled his god, in himself. He was the sin his god condemned, for being vicious, assaultive, disrespectful, terroristic and vile. He became the evil, that his god warned about, that his jesus overcame when it tried to tempt him from the path of righteousness. This man assumed another Screen Name, because he was known on the forums as a Moderator, just so he could stalk and harass, me. Because he did not approve who I was, living my life, without his approval. And so, he thought he would terrorize me, until I weakened and succumbed.

I don't know what ever happened to that man, but I do know that while I ignored him, he flamed on. And I do know that all that read him, even not knowing who he was as he dawned that alter ego in print, that what he spewed lived inside him. And that all the faith in the world, would never change what he was at heart.

Living up to a faith is a huge responsibility. It first requires someone relinquish full responsibility for themselves and their choices, unto something else that they believe made them and watches over them, forgives and judges them, for being who they are. They imagine there is a tempter, a deceiver, the antithesis of what they hold holy, that is always at work calling to that other side of one's self, to be the opposite of what their faith tells them is good. For an Atheist there is no such thing. It's all me. If I were to become like that man, a hate filled vile abuser, it's me that chooses to be so. It's something in me that feels so little for myself living happy and well, that I would descend into the opposite of that and live miserable and afraid. It's me! It's my free choice , and it's also something more. Something in one's character, something born from the beginning and how they were raised. No god saves me, no devil tempts. It's all my responsibility, for my life. And if there is any faith to be had, by this Atheist, it's that I trust I am worth more than believing something else is responsible for me. :wub:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would say that Atheism is based on the lack of faith! On pure examination of the physical evidence. Not being an Atheist (or, as most know a Christian) that is not my belief, but to each their own.... :yes:

I love it. Thank you for that. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think many atheists....oh...uh...hi people, I'm just stopping in *waves at the people she knows*....anyway, many atheists dislike having the term 'faith' applied to them, because it often isn't the appropriate word. To many, ‘faith’ implies a certain degree of ‘believing no matter what’....I, for example, feel that the concept of faith implies sticking your head in the sand, and stubbornly believing in something not just without evidence, but often in spite of it.

In other words, it isn’t at all scientific…which is how many atheists arrive at believing there isn’t a god. As a scientist, I see the world in a very analytical manner….I weigh things based entirely on ‘evidence for’ and ‘evidence against’…and I’ve simply seen no evidence whatsoever to support the idea of a god, but a great deal of evidence to contradict any given religious mythos. For me it hasn’t been a matter of simple ‘faith’, but rather a matter of discovery.

Simply put, many atheists shape their view of the world based on the evidence around them…faith implies shaping the evidence around them based on their view of the world :P As an atheist, I find the connotations of faith slightly demeaning.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think many atheists....oh...uh...hi people, I'm just stopping in *waves at the people she knows*....anyway, many atheists dislike having the term 'faith' applied to them, because it often isn't the appropriate word. To many, ‘faith’ implies a certain degree of ‘believing no matter what’....I, for example, feel that the concept of faith implies sticking your head in the sand, and stubbornly believing in something not just without evidence, but often in spite of it.

In other words, it isn’t at all scientific…which is how many atheists arrive at believing there isn’t a god. As a scientist, I see the world in a very analytical manner….I weigh things based entirely on ‘evidence for’ and ‘evidence against’…and I’ve simply seen no evidence whatsoever to support the idea of a god, but a great deal of evidence to contradict any given religious mythos. For me it hasn’t been a matter of simple ‘faith’, but rather a matter of discovery.

Simply put, many atheists shape their view of the world based on the evidence around them…faith implies shaping the evidence around them based on their view of the world :P As an atheist, I find the connotations of faith slightly demeaning.

I thank you for sharing your thoughts and agree with your insight. ~waves back even though you don't know me :P~ And, as someone that once browsed exchristian.net, I really love your signature. :lol::rofl:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Sera....been awhile since you dropped by...Beowulf says "Hello" also...don't be a stranger, we miss your wit and knowledge in this wasteland of the TV generation! - Mako :yes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

also...don't be a stranger, we miss your wit and knowledge in this wasteland of the TV generation!

A wise person once said that "you don't know what you have until it's gone". This line was in fact first used by Nostradamus, when he predicted the great woe that would befall the world in my absence. Years later, other people took his words, reworded them a half dozen times, and put it into various songs; usually taken out of context and used to describe things far less valuable than Seraphina.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Atheism is from the Greek, meaning, "without god" A-"without" , "theos" = "god". A-theism =without god.

In another post I linked an article defining strong and weak Atheism. Strong Atheism simply means there is no deity, no god, no supernatural force at work to create or articulate it's existence as that responsible for all that exists. Strong Atheists do not believe in any known god forms, nor do they believe there is anything that can be construed as such. Weak Atheists do not believe in the known god forms, nor do they expect to ever accept any god forms they may hear about later. (excerpt) Weak atheists are also open to the idea that there is some driving force that keeps the universe in motion but that force is not a divine being.

Often times people believe that Atheism is a belief system in and of itself. Sometimes those ideologies are derived by people that seem almost obsessed with the definition of "belief" so much so as to imply everyone that believes anything is a member of a faith based philosophy. And that would thereby imply it is tantamount to a religious kinship, in and of itself. And I think, (notice the "I think" so it's not speaking for anyone else, nor is it based on studies, empirical evidence etc...), that Atheism is not in any way a faith based philosophy. I do not have faith there is no such being some call god. I know there is not. I know that all things that allude to such a creation are in and of themselves articles of faith. And that, by definition, precludes fact. People believe in god because they're told first what god is, what it means to hold faith in such a creative force, a sentient creature that empathizes with it's human creations. They read myths perpetrated by centuries old scribes, and accept that as evidence the being those passages describe, exists. That doesn't mean it does, it means that one must have faith that it does. It's not proof, it's trust in the word that calls something god and attaches to that identity the powers necessary for making everything that is or ever shall be.

When I meet religious people, I meet flesh and blood, not fable. I meet human beings, just like me, that live their life by a creed, an article of trust, there is some invisible sky father or mother, that cares about them. And then I watch and I learn from their example of their faith, what they make that god or goddess to be, in their living by the standard they think defines who they are and what it means to be religious, for insight into exactly what their god is, by their example.

I once had a man that thought himself very religious. The fact I was an Atheist irked him to no end. Why, was beyond me because we were not responsible for living each others lives, we didn't really know one another save meeting in a forum on-line. But this man, took exception with me and in his zeal as one religious, he stalked , harassed, verbally abused , because he wanted me to alter something of myself, to his approval. And he in as much as said, until I did, he would not stop! The Moderators on the forum , normally very good at policing such bully tactics, let this man slide. Because they knew him. And so, this man, this person who imagined himself religious, exampled his god, in himself. He was the sin his god condemned, for being vicious, assaultive, disrespectful, terroristic and vile. He became the evil, that his god warned about, that his jesus overcame when it tried to tempt him from the path of righteousness. This man assumed another Screen Name, because he was known on the forums as a Moderator, just so he could stalk and harass, me. Because he did not approve who I was, living my life, without his approval. And so, he thought he would terrorize me, until I weakened and succumbed.

I don't know what ever happened to that man, but I do know that while I ignored him, he flamed on. And I do know that all that read him, even not knowing who he was as he dawned that alter ego in print, that what he spewed lived inside him. And that all the faith in the world, would never change what he was at heart.

Living up to a faith is a huge responsibility. It first requires someone relinquish full responsibility for themselves and their choices, unto something else that they believe made them and watches over them, forgives and judges them, for being who they are. They imagine there is a tempter, a deceiver, the antithesis of what they hold holy, that is always at work calling to that other side of one's self, to be the opposite of what their faith tells them is good. For an Atheist there is no such thing. It's all me. If I were to become like that man, a hate filled vile abuser, it's me that chooses to be so. It's something in me that feels so little for myself living happy and well, that I would descend into the opposite of that and live miserable and afraid. It's me! It's my free choice , and it's also something more. Something in one's character, something born from the beginning and how they were raised. No god saves me, no devil tempts. It's all my responsibility, for my life. And if there is any faith to be had, by this Atheist, it's that I trust I am worth more than believing something else is responsible for me. :wub:

Fascinating, but I wasn't disputing the meaning of Atheism or faith. I was debating whether god (any god) is knowable and can therefore be defined. If something cannot be defined or known then either believing or not believing (denying) that thing is an act of faith.

You can, as you pointed out, take the indeterminate route. You called it weak Atheism but that is not so.

Atheism is from the Greek, meaning, "without god" A-"without" , "theos" = "god". A-theism =without god.

How can one be 'weakly without'? Without means 'not with'. There is no middle road with Atheism - to be an Atheist you have to be 'without god(s)'. Being indeterminate is to be Agnostic.

Atheists do not like to have their 'belief' referred to as faith or religion because it makes them uncomfortable. They want to think they have given up religion but they've simply swapped an affirmative religion for a negative one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's an interesting intellectual argument - but it bases itself on being able to define god. If there is a god it is quite possible that god is beyond definition so the whole argument is invalidated.

IMO Atheism IS based on faith and is as much a religion (albeit with no central organisational body) as theist beliefs. I do not see theist faith as being 'stronger' than atheist faith simply because they base this faith on the existence of something.

HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA THAT WAS BRILLIANT!@! WELL SAID MATE WELL SAID. *APPLAUSE*

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fascinating, but I wasn't disputing the meaning of Atheism or faith. I was debating whether god (any god) is knowable and can therefore be defined. If something cannot be defined or known then either believing or not believing (denying) that thing is an act of faith.

You can, as you pointed out, take the indeterminate route. You called it weak Atheism but that is not so.

How can one be 'weakly without'? Without means 'not with'. There is no middle road with Atheism - to be an Atheist you have to be 'without god(s)'. Being indeterminate is to be Agnostic.

Atheists do not like to have their 'belief' referred to as faith or religion because it makes them uncomfortable. They want to think they have given up religion but they've simply swapped an affirmative religion for a negative one.

OH THIS IS MUSIC TO MY HEARS!@! BRAVO MY GOOD MAN!@! HOW BEAUTIFULLY AND ARTICULATELY SAID!@!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think many atheists....oh...uh...hi people, I'm just stopping in *waves at the people she knows*....anyway, many atheists dislike having the term 'faith' applied to them, because it often isn't the appropriate word. To many, ‘faith’ implies a certain degree of ‘believing no matter what’....I, for example, feel that the concept of faith implies sticking your head in the sand, and stubbornly believing in something not just without evidence, but often in spite of it.

In other words, it isn’t at all scientific…which is how many atheists arrive at believing there isn’t a god. As a scientist, I see the world in a very analytical manner….I weigh things based entirely on ‘evidence for’ and ‘evidence against’…and I’ve simply seen no evidence whatsoever to support the idea of a god, but a great deal of evidence to contradict any given religious mythos. For me it hasn’t been a matter of simple ‘faith’, but rather a matter of discovery.

Simply put, many atheists shape their view of the world based on the evidence around them…faith implies shaping the evidence around them based on their view of the world :P As an atheist, I find the connotations of faith slightly demeaning.

hey seraphina long time no see and i agree 100 percent with this post as always :wub: well said

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is nothing logical about faith, if there was a logical approach to faith, then it would no longer be faith. It is that more than anything else that makes any "constructive" discussion about this topic basically impossible. By definition, there is no way I can logically prove to you what I know to be true.

Actually you can. Mystical experience can be had by everyone and so people if they wish can come face to face with god themselves and see for themselves that it is true. Quite logical.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Living up to a faith is a huge responsibility. It first requires someone relinquish full responsibility for themselves and their choices, unto something else that they believe made them and watches over them, forgives and judges them, for being who they are.

You rekon Mahatma Gandhi never took full responsibility for his actions?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fascinating, but I wasn't disputing the meaning of Atheism or faith. I was debating whether god (any god) is knowable and can therefore be defined. If something cannot be defined or known then either believing or not believing (denying) that thing is an act of faith.

You can, as you pointed out, take the indeterminate route. You called it weak Atheism but that is not so.

How can one be 'weakly without'? Without means 'not with'. There is no middle road with Atheism - to be an Atheist you have to be 'without god(s)'. Being indeterminate is to be Agnostic.

Atheists do not like to have their 'belief' referred to as faith or religion because it makes them uncomfortable. They want to think they have given up religion but they've simply swapped an affirmative religion for a negative one.

Fascinating. And you are certainly entitled to your opinion of what an Atheist is. However, Atheists are not obligated to agree. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Living up to a faith is a huge responsibility. It first requires someone relinquish full responsibility for themselves and their choices, unto something else that they believe made them and watches over them, forgives and judges them, for being who they are.

I haven't relinquished anything to anyone. :unsure2:

They imagine there is a tempter, a deceiver, the antithesis of what they hold holy, that is always at work calling to that other side of one's self, to be the opposite of what their faith tells them is good.

I don't believe that at all. :no:

If I were to become like that man, a hate filled vile abuser, it's me that chooses to be so.

That applies to me too...

With regards to living up to a faith... are we talking about people who believe in a creator/god... or just ones that believe in the biblical God, Jesus and all that?

The only people I have ever seen relinquish their responsibility, act in a vile manner and then await judgement and forgiveness, and blame the whole sorry thing on God have been sad excuses for human beings who just needed someone to blame so went to church and called themselves Christians so they'd have a divinity to point the finger at.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only people I have ever seen relinquish their responsibility, act in a vile manner and then await judgement and forgiveness, and blame the whole sorry thing on God have been sad excuses for human beings who just needed someone to blame so went to church and called themselves Christians so they'd have a divinity to point the finger at.

That is the type of person I was describing when I mentioned that man I met on-line. It's not an indictment of all that hold faith, nor was any of my statement intended to be a blanket statement deriding everyone of faith. It was a generality based on the over all impression I've been given about faith, generally. I certainly meant no offense to you personally in any way. :no:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fascinating. And you are certainly entitled to your opinion of what an Atheist is. However, Atheists are not obligated to agree. :)

:lol: Absolutely. I love debating with you Goddess, thank you so much for making me smile :tu:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pleasure! :tu::lol: Just as long as you smile with me, and not at me. (or is that laugh with, not at!? :unsure2::P) Ok, smiling at me, is cool to then. :rofl:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.