682 replies to this topic

[Sthenno]

For some reason this story reminds me of Coral Castle http://en.wikipedia....ts_construction
Maybe there really are some secret laws of weight and leverage that allow people who master them to easily manipulate huge lumps of stone.
Most likely not, but who knows.

[lightly]

anyone have any info or ideas on WHY the types of stonework tiwanaku and puma punku are so different from each other?   .. if.. they were built by the same people and at nearly the same time?

[Abramelin]

lightlyy, on 08 January 2010 - 02:31 PM, said:

anyone have any info or ideas on WHY the types of stonework tiwanaku and puma punku are so different from each other?   .. if.. they were built by the same people and at nearly the same time?

Maybe because they were built for different purposes?

EDIT:


This how Tiwanaku looked in 1903:

Edited by Abramelin, 08 January 2010 - 02:56 PM.

[Abramelin]

And here's thread with lots of pics that show us how the Tiwanaku site actually looked before they started reconstructing it:

http://www.skyscrape...t=886390&page=3


And about the supposed age of Tiwanaku, the next info is important:


For example, the disturbance of Tiwanaku, "Tiahuanaco,"
was described in the politically incorrect and less than
polite language of his day by Verrill (1929) when he wrote:

   "Through the ages that had then passed since Tiahuanaco
   had become a veritable "Place of the Dead" and, through
   the centuries that have passed since the days of Incan
   dominion, this most ancient American city has been
   desecrated, looted, literally torn to bits.  Choice portions
   of its magnificent sculptured stone work have been
   carried off by the natives and used to build their own
   miserable huts, and there is scarcely an Indian dwelling
   within miles of the ruins that does not possess a doorstep,
   a lintel, or some portion of its walls formed of fragments
   of Tiahuanaco.  Even the rough, narrow, filthy streets of
   the villages are, in places, roughly paved with pieces of
   carved or worked stones filched from the ruins.  The
   little Spanish church at the modern village of Tiahuanaco
   is almost entirely constructed of portions of the ancient
   town, and flanking the entrance are the heads and
   shoulders of two colossal stone images that were
   ruthlessly knocked from the bodies of Tiahuanaco's
   stone gods. The Indian farmers have surrounded their
   stony thin soiled fields with walls constructed of
   stonework from the ruins, and vandals, collectors, and
   curio seekers have done their part. But the greatest
   damage of all, the most ruthless and inexcusable
   destruction, was caused by the railway whose tracks run
   directly through the center of the ancient city. Thousands
   of tons of stone, idols, statues, monoliths, carved
   columns, magnificent doorways, immense slabs and
   priceless sculptures were broken up, crushed and used
   for ballasting the tracks."

Clearly, long before Posnansky (1943) studied Tiwanaku, it
had been badly disturbed.  He was studying a site severely
damaged by stone mining, looting, and vandalism.   As a
result, even his pains-taking study of the site would have
been badly skewed by the severe disturbance to this site.
This is one reason why his dating of Tiwanaku has been
ignored by archaeologists.

http://members.cox.n...e/Tiwanaku.html

Edited by Abramelin, 08 January 2010 - 03:11 PM.

[zoser]

Hi Abe

Thanks for the info, and you have gone to a lot of trouble to find that info.

Sonmething puzzles me that just does not sound right:

My understanding is that part of Posnansky's independant study of Tiahuanaco was based on two main pillar features, and he did some calculations on solar positioning.  He apparently did some calculations concerning procession of the equinox, and this is how he arrived at his controversial date of 17,500 years old (or was it BC?)

How was he able to do this with so much of the site in ruins?  It does not make sense!  He could have only performed accurate calculations if he knew that key points of the main structure were in place, otherwise his work would amount to pure conjecture.

As usual, due to interference, claims, counter claims, the truth is difficult to discern.  Just like the GP, and Howard Vysse with his graffiti.  No one will ever know the truth.

I also have to apologise again because I just don't believe the dating for PP - again something is wrong.  Nothing was happening on the planet in 500AD to compare with the sophistication and accuracy of those blocks. It is however typical of work that goes much much further back in time.

[Abramelin]

zoser, on 08 January 2010 - 05:52 PM, said:

Hi Abe

Thanks for the info, and you have gone to a lot of trouble to find that info.

Sonmething puzzles me that just does not sound right:

My understanding is that part of Posnansky's independant study of Tiahuanaco was based on two main pillar features, and he did some calculations on solar positioning.  He apparently did some calculations concerning procession of the equinox, and this is how he arrived at his controversial date of 17,500 years old (or was it BC?)

How was he able to do this with so much of the site in ruins?  It does not make sense!  He could have only performed accurate calculations if he knew that key points of the main structure were in place, otherwise his work would amount to pure conjecture.

As usual, due to interference, claims, counter claims, the truth is difficult to discern.  Just like the GP, and Howard Vysse with his graffiti.  No one will ever know the truth.

I also have to apologise again because I just don't believe the dating for PP - again something is wrong.  Nothing was happening on the planet in 500AD to compare with the sophistication and accuracy of those blocks. It is however typical of work that goes much much further back in time.

How did he do it with so much of the site in ruins? Using a LOT of assumptions and guess work.


Here's another quote from the link in my former post:


A real mystery about the Tiwanaku Site is that Posnansky
(1943) clearly knew how badly trashed the Tiwanaku Site
was when he mapped it.  Yet, he disregarded these obvious
problems and tried to date the site using archaeoastronomical
methods that he should have known would produce relatively
meaningless results.   He simplistically assumes without any
hard evidence that astronomical alignments were unaltered
by the destruction that the Tiwanaku site has suffered.  He
also assumes without either the benefit of inscriptions or
any ethnographic or other data that buildings were
astronomically aligned to a high degree precision in specific
directions.

It is like an archaeologist finding the base of the
Louisiana State Capitol a thousand years from now and
lacking any written record of it.  Because it is aligned
in an east-west direction, he /she assumes that it must
have been aligned a high degree precision to some
astronomical event and uses that assumption to date it.
The result is "Garbage In, Garbage Out" regardless of how
skillfully the surviving parts of the building have been
mapped.

About Tiwanaku, Browman (1981) states:

   "The site is very poorly preserved and imaginatively
reconstructed."

Similarly, Isbell (1986) states:

   "the original megalithic facade of the Kalasasaya,
   the other great U-shaped complex at Tiwanaku, is
   poorly preserved and imaginatively reconstructed."

Likely, too much undocumented destruction and alteration
has occurred at Tiwanaku for archaeoastronomy dating to be
done on it.  It would be like getting a watch that has had
most of its springs and gears ripped from it to work, much
less correctly tell time.


EDIT:

I visited Tiwanaku in 1991, and all I could say was "WOW !!" It's a huge area, something you can hardly imagine if you only see pics of it..

But through the years I have learned that like 95 percent of that site was completely reconstructed, and much based on Posnansky's ideas of how it should have looked, but also with the idea in mind to attract tourists (gullible idiots like me back then).

.

Edited by Abramelin, 08 January 2010 - 07:03 PM.

[zoser]

Hi Abe

I cannot find references to the idea that Posnansky rebuilt Tiahuanaco to the extent you describe.  Your sources are the only ones I have seen. Until I can find more information or actually get hold of a book about him, I will have to remain open minded about it.

Meanwhile, here is something that I keep coming across; I have seen this on many sites now, and I think it is worthy of consideration:

Refering to Tiahuanaco:

The figures flanking the centerpiece are unfinished, causing viewers to wonder what could have interrupted the craftsmen. Of the animals represented on the gate, two have been extinct for thousands of years. Jaguars and condors are still with us, but toxodons and elephants can no longer be found in the area.

History shows that an elephant-like creature thrived in the area during the Pleistocene era, some 11,000-12,000 years ago." [2/3]

[1] AtlantisQuest.com
[2] http://www.s8int.com/page9.html
[3] John Stafford

[lightly]

Thanks Abramelin and zoser

[Abramelin]

zoser, on 09 January 2010 - 08:59 AM, said:

Hi Abe

I cannot find references to the idea that Posnansky rebuilt Tiahuanaco to the extent you describe.  Your sources are the only ones I have seen. Until I can find more information or actually get hold of a book about him, I will have to remain open minded about it.

That's right, and that's because I didn't say that, lol.

Quote

and much based on Posnansky's ideas of how it should have looked, but also with the idea in mind to attract tourists

It wasn't Posnansky doing all the reconstruction, much of the reconstruction was done after him.

And about finding more sources: the photos I posted are from a book, and I know I had it in my hands, many years ago. When I found the photos online, I immediately recognized them.

And the 95 % reconstruction was just my guess; but if you read in what state they rediscovered Tiwanaku, then I don't think I'm far off. Even stones and statues that were still in place were tilted or badly damaged.

[Abramelin]

PERU - Incidents of Travel and Exploration in the LAND OF THE INCAS
by E. George Squier, New York, Harper and Brothers, 1877

http://www.jqjacobs....anaku.html#peru

NOTE: This excerpt serves to provide a description of the ruins before the harvesting of many stones for railroad construction. It also provides insights into some nineteenth-century attitudes towards archaeology sites by and the racism of its author, cited writers, and the local priest (cura) in Tiahuanaco village.

EDIT: to prevent any confusion, this is not the book I said I once read. This book is far older and only (well, only..) contains drawings.

==

Btw, if you click on that link in an earlier post, you come to a site called "Skyscrapercity", and the one posting all these very old photos of Tiwanaku stole them from the 'bibliotecapleyades" site.

So I searched on that site for those photos, and didn't find them, but maybe I didn't look good enough.

Anyway, on that Bibliotecapleyades site are a few chapters from Posnansky's book:

http://www.bibliotec...tiahuanaco5.htm

Edited by Abramelin, 09 January 2010 - 03:53 PM.

[Shadow_of_Man]

Skim Milky, on 13 August 2009 - 01:26 PM, said:

Are the history books in our schools the real science fiction?

Absolutely! The history we have been taught is manipulated history. Even in American history, events such as Paul Revere’s Ride, the Liberty Bell, Plymouth Rock, the Fourth of July, etc., etc. are not the true accounts of what actually happened. Some of them never even happened.

[Oniomancer]

Shadow_of_Man, on 10 January 2010 - 05:06 PM, said:

Absolutely! The history we have been taught is manipulated history. Even in American history, events such as Paul Revere’s Ride, the Liberty Bell, Plymouth Rock, the Fourth of July, etc., etc. are not the true accounts of what actually happened. Some of them never even happened.

I've noticed though that people who bring this up tend to be very selective about which histories they think were altered.

[lightly]

Abramelin, Thanks for  the informative info and for posting this site  http://www.jqjacobs.net/andes/tiwanaku.html#peru  .. it shows and speaks about the same sort of  complex interlocking  blocks at Tiwanaku as Puma Punku.  The two sites are much more similar than i knew.

[Lander7]

You can see a clip of that site on www.thinkonyourown.com under "Timeline" called "Advanced Oldest Race"

[zoser]

Lander7, on 14 January 2010 - 11:10 PM, said:

You can see a clip of that site on www.thinkonyourown.com under "Timeline" called "Advanced Oldest Race"

Lander

Tried to watch the video.  The stream download is slower than molasses in January!  Why so painfully slow?

Edited by zoser, 15 January 2010 - 09:01 PM.