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Question for vegetarians

vegatarian meat free run animals vegan

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#31    Mikko-kun

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 11:26 PM

View Posttrancelikestate, on 16 May 2013 - 12:14 AM, said:

haha I hope not, thats a terrible argument. By that logic we should turn to cannabalism because humans are the most dangerous animals of them all.

Aint so terrible argument if you're for voluntary, responsible cannibalism. Well or is, why need a pretext for that. It's gotten us through hard times before.

and plants are livinf beings, so I think it's fair to admit that we dont know dor sure whether they feel pain or not. Plants do thrive more wheb gardener's mood is better too. But we dont have to feel bad about it because plants eventually eat us too. You could say we're already very indirect cannibals.

Edited by Mikko-kun, 16 May 2013 - 11:32 PM.

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#32    White Crane Feather

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 12:44 AM

View Postredhen, on 16 May 2013 - 09:10 PM, said:



Land is not being massively converted to agricultural fields solely to grow crops for vegetarians. If I'm wrong on this, please show me the evidence.

There are several formal logical fallacies in your argument, straw men, red herrings and the biggest one; tu quoque or "look who's talking".


You are miss understanding me. I'm not saying its wrong to grow crops, im just talking about the double standard being applied. This is not a formal debate, indeed I am just pointing out the hypocracy. If we apply these sentiments then no one will eat. I don't have an argument against being a vegetarian it's vegetarians calling eating meat immoral that I have an issue with. They do not seem to want to apply the same standards to what goes into supplying them with their own food. Even if they are elevating animals animals still suffer through eating only plants just not as direct.

I guess if you tell me that punching somone in the face wrong and then do it yourself it is still wrong, but we are talking about food here. In this case we might as well say its immoral to live.

By the way, the video was pretty funny, but I was not saying that it's ok for me to eat meat because eating Vegies causes damage to. I offered up real solutions Faced in agriculture. I don't think it's immoral to eat either, but I do think it's important to be concious of how it was produced and how that fits into ones moral structure.

Edited by Seeker79, 17 May 2013 - 12:51 AM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
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#33    redhen

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 01:09 AM

View PostArmchair Educated, on 16 May 2013 - 10:38 PM, said:

I gave up meat for lent once and became very ill, I used all the alternative protein foods I could but it still didn't help me. please don't be so judgy, you don't know me. ive struggled my whole life with my diet having a metabolism that burns off fat sitting down, so if Im unable to store carbs, I cant give up meat or id waste away.

Certainly, there are always exceptions. The Dalai Lama, who allegedly is the reincarnation of the Buddhist Lord of Compassion (Avalokiteśvara) eats meat, under his doctors instructions.

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p.s theres nothing wrong with pleasing the majority when theirs no ill repercussions, I come here for enjoyment and I have many displeasing views that people don't agree with on this forum.

Same here.

cheers


#34    redhen

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 01:25 AM

View PostSeeker79, on 17 May 2013 - 12:44 AM, said:

You are miss understanding me. I'm not saying its wrong to grow crops,

You wrote; "Do modern vegetarians understand that many things die, and ecologies  are ruined to support agriculture. It's rediculous actually. "

So is it ok to grow crops or not? Or just not for vegans?

Quote

im just talking about the double standard being applied. This is not a formal debate, indeed I am just pointing out the hypocracy.

You also invoked logic; "If a vegetarian is not a hunter gatherer style vegetarian, then you have no basis in morality nor logic."

To which I invoked the tu quoque fallacy.

Quote

I don't have an argument against being a vegetarian it's vegetarians calling eating meat immoral that I have an issue with.

What's your issue, besides the fallacious argument you keep repeating? If you live in a modern agricultural society, you don't need to eat meat. Eating meat entails pain and suffering, which is also unnecessary, and thus cruel.

Quote

They do not seem to want to apply the same standards to what goes into supplying them with their own food. Even if they are elevating animals animals still suffer through eating only plants just not as direct.

I'm not following you here, are you suggesting we eat only carnivores?

Quote

I guess if you tell me that punching somone in the face wrong and then do it yourself it is still wrong, but we are talking about food here. In this case we might as well say its immoral to live.

Ok I see the problem. It looks like you believe that humans must eat meat in order to survive. To which my answer is Carl Lewis, 9 times Olympic Gold medalist, and vegan.

Quote

By the way, the video was pretty funny, but I was not saying that it's ok for me to eat meat because eating Vegies causes damage to.

But that's exactly what you said, and called it hypocrisy.

Nothing personal here. I don't know you. I'm not attacking you. I'm just practicing my logic and rhetoric skills.


#35    Ever Learning

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 07:30 AM

View Postredhen, on 17 May 2013 - 01:09 AM, said:

Certainly, there are always exceptions. The Dalai Lama, who allegedly is the reincarnation of the Buddhist Lord of Compassion (Avalokiteśvara) eats meat, under his doctors instructions.



Same here.

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that's cool, soz for being over sensitive in my previous comment, I was writing it in the early hours with half my mental faculties working lol

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#36    Toadie

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 01:42 PM

Not eating meat will not stop animals being killed inhumane way. Buying from your local farmer or from organic free range or if you have the land buy live stock and kill your own this will help in reducing numbers of animals being killed inhumane way. Animals brain is not as complex as our brain they do not know the concept of time nor do they have any understanding of how long they could live for. Killing animals I believe is not wrong because that is how humans over the years have survived what is wrong now is the amount of food wastage people create.

If you want to perform at your best then you have to supply your brain with the right fuels. Unlike back in the old times people did not have supplements so they needed to eat a good source of meat products.

Being a vegetarian makes fuelling your body correctly a hard task. For example our body needs EPA and DHA which is found in fish, tuna, salmon if you are lacking it may result in learning difficulties and heart disease. Vegetarian would need to eat sufficient quantities of flaxseeds roughly three tablespoons of ground seeds.


#37    Heaven Is A Halfpipe

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 01:56 PM

View Postshrooma, on 16 May 2013 - 10:49 PM, said:

let'see who started demonising who shall we?
.
http://www.unexplain...pic=247846&st=0
.
can you say hypocrisy....?

What's your point? I do consider the mass slaughter of animals just for selfish indulges a "demonic" act. Problem?

It just staggers me that some people can't comprehend the vegetarian argument and despite everything, even if they're shown the slaughter first hand...they still think this slaughter is okay. And for what? The only possible argument in todays world is the taste...sue me for thinking it's selfish to expect animals to die so you can enjoy the taste of them.

Doesn't mean I'm calling YOU a bad person, I just consider it a flaw. I got plenty of my own. I'm sure you're a grand fella.

Edited by Heaven Is A Halfpipe, 17 May 2013 - 01:56 PM.

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#38    Heaven Is A Halfpipe

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 01:58 PM

View PostToadie, on 17 May 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

Not eating meat will not stop animals being killed inhumane way. Buying from your local farmer or from organic free range or if you have the land buy live stock and kill your own this will help in reducing numbers of animals being killed inhumane way. Animals brain is not as complex as our brain they do not know the concept of time nor do they have any understanding of how long they could live for. Killing animals I believe is not wrong because that is how humans over the years have survived what is wrong now is the amount of food wastage people create.

If you want to perform at your best then you have to supply your brain with the right fuels. Unlike back in the old times people did not have supplements so they needed to eat a good source of meat products.

Being a vegetarian makes fuelling your body correctly a hard task. For example our body needs EPA and DHA which is found in fish, tuna, salmon if you are lacking it may result in learning difficulties and heart disease. Vegetarian would need to eat sufficient quantities of flaxseeds roughly three tablespoons of ground seeds.

I agree. Thank heavens it's been proven time and time again (without supplements) that a meat/fish free diet can do just that. You know what that means... no more animals should need to die. :tu:

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#39    White Crane Feather

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 02:11 PM

View Postredhen, on 17 May 2013 - 01:25 AM, said:



You wrote; "Do modern vegetarians understand that many things die, and ecologies  are ruined to support agriculture. It's rediculous actually. "

So is it ok to grow crops or not? Or just not for vegans?



You also invoked logic; "If a vegetarian is not a hunter gatherer style vegetarian, then you have no basis in morality nor logic."

To which I invoked the tu quoque fallacy.



What's your issue, besides the fallacious argument you keep repeating? If you live in a modern agricultural society, you don't need to eat meat. Eating meat entails pain and suffering, which is also unnecessary, and thus cruel.



I'm not following you here, are you suggesting we eat only carnivores?



Ok I see the problem. It looks like you believe that humans must eat meat in order to survive. To which my answer is Carl Lewis, 9 times Olympic Gold medalist, and vegan.



But that's exactly what you said, and called it hypocrisy.

Nothing personal here. I don't know you. I'm not attacking you. I'm just practicing my logic and rhetoric skills.
Hahaha, no problem I do it all the time. I guess i am using an appeal to hypocrisy. Let me try again.

The moral argument against eating meat is founded on the premis that we should cause no unnecessary pain and suffering (P&S) to other animals. Pain and suffering is a bad thing.  Bad things should be avoided. If we really want to get to the bottoms of this we should assign a unit of badness and goodnes. Ill call the unit a B & G.

The first thing that becomes apparent is that if animals can be raised in good natural environments like humane organic farming, then killed instantly without ever knowing or feeling the instrument ( ie a bullet to the head or equivalent), then it's safe to say that no units of B were ever produced. Quit the oposites the multitude of happy animals that were produced producing more units of G. The meat taste great producing even more units of G. The meat generates a productive economy generating even more units of G. Animals produce non chemical fertilizers producing more G, and grazing ( not over grazing)  is good for grazed lands as part of the natural cycles of life, to this produces even more G.

The moral argument against eating meat comes from the B produced by mistreating animals. This is not an argument agains EATING meat. This is an argument against MISTREATING animals. EATING meat does not necessarily ( but definantly can) lead to mistreating animals.

If one wants to be moral which means you are a marginal G seeker and a marginal B avoider, it's easy to see EATING meat is not an issue. Buying meat comeing from mistreated animals however is. Buying meat that is produced humanely and organically however is perfectly moral.

The vegitarian claimin that eating all meat is immoral, must make a better argument that more G is produced by avoiding all meat. This means that the B from producing crops must be factored into the equation. This is not pointing out hypocrisy of e vegetarian ( though certainly true ;) ) the vegetarian is makeing a tally of Bs and Gs associated with ones choice in diet but conviently leaving out the Bs of one side of the equation and souly focused on the Bs of another.

If the vegetarian is going to logically claim moral high ground, he/she is going to have to explain why eating  only plants creates more marginal G than  humainly grown and treated meat does.

( I'm starting to sound like economics professors)





"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#40    Mnemonix

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 03:29 PM

Personally, I say don't live life. It sucks.

And I eat vegetables for health, and also that I don't like killing.

I'm not a vegetarian, but I plan to be one.

Edited by Mnemonix, 17 May 2013 - 03:40 PM.


#41    redhen

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 04:31 PM

View PostToadie, on 17 May 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

Not eating meat will not stop animals being killed inhumane way.

True, but we're not talking about torturing kittens for fun and profit or dog fighting for gambling purposes. This is a Straw man argument.

Quote

Buying from your local farmer or from organic free range or if you have the land buy live stock and kill your own this will help in reducing numbers of animals being killed inhumane way.

That's not always the case, there are many examples of animal abuse and neglect on small farms.

Quote

Animals brain is not as complex as our brain they do not know the concept of time nor do they have any understanding of how long they could live for.

Neither does an infant or someone who is severely mentally disabled. "“The question is not, "Can they reason?" nor, "Can they talk?" but "Can they suffer?”"  ― Jeremy Bentham

Quote

Killing animals I believe is not wrong because that is how humans over the years have survived what is wrong now is the amount of food wastage people create.

This is an appeal to tradition, and it is a logical fallacy. Slavery was a long held tradition.

Quote

If you want to perform at your best then you have to supply your brain with the right fuels. Unlike back in the old times people did not have supplements so they needed to eat a good source of meat products.

That's not the case. One example is Carl Lewis, 9 time Olympic Gold medalist and vegan.

Quote

Being a vegetarian makes fuelling your body correctly a hard task. For example our body needs EPA and DHA which is found in fish, tuna, salmon if you are lacking it may result in learning difficulties and heart disease. Vegetarian would need to eat sufficient quantities of flaxseeds roughly three tablespoons of ground seeds.

see Carl Lewis.


#42    Toadie

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 05:41 PM

View Postredhen, on 17 May 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

True, but we're not talking about torturing kittens for fun and profit or dog fighting for gambling purposes. This is a Straw man argument.

Not sure what you mean by straw man argument??


That's not always the case, there are many examples of animal abuse and neglect on small farms.

Yes I know this but you would try go to farmer that has a good reputation, even take the next step and go out to the farm then you can see the living conditions of the animals

Neither does an infant or someone who is severely mentally disabled. "“The question is not, "Can they reason?" nor, "Can they talk?" but "Can they suffer?”"  ― Jeremy Bentham

Any animal can suffer in the wrong hands. I don't believe having lambs or cattle grazing on land is going to cause the animal to suffer.

This is an appeal to tradition, and it is a logical fallacy. Slavery was a long held tradition.

You can not compare slavery and eating meat because two are totally different

That's not the case. One example is Carl Lewis, 9 time Olympic Gold medalist and vegan.

I never said you can not live without meat I said it is harder to get the right amount of nutrients if one does not eat any sort of animal

see Carl Lewis.



#43    White Crane Feather

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 05:46 PM

View PostHeaven Is A Halfpipe, on 16 May 2013 - 10:15 PM, said:



Farming animals for meat is "hunting" them, is it? Do you hunt for the meat you consume? If you do, fair play to you. If you just pop down to your local supermarket, you have no leg to stand on.

For the few comments that vegetarians should feel bad, also, because plants communicate with one another, are they actually aware that fruits and things don't actually kill (nor presumably harm) plants they come from? An apple falls from a tree..the tree doesn't die. Also, it's not news that plants are living things.

How ridiculous to compare that to the slaughter mankind inflicts upon wildlife day in, day out. The attempt to try and demonise vegetarians too comes from a deep rooted personal guilt and desperate justification for their own indulgences.

Just imo of course :tu:
Actually I do. Deer, wild big, and others with a bow actually.  I also raise my own chickens for eggs and ocasionally meat, have an organic garden, and am working on producing most of my meat from a small giant flemish rabbit set up. I buy organic grass raised meat from a small local meat market. We are not 100% yet, but as soon as I can start trading the meat market large rabbits for other types of meat. I will be very very close.

No one is demonizing vegitarians. If Somone wants to tell me I am immoral fur the way that I eat, I deserve the right to defend that aligation and I will point out that simple vegetable production also causes much damage, so there is noone without blood on their hands.

Please believe me, I feel no guilt what so ever eating humainly treated meat. I do have practices of respect and honor given to animals I have hunted including prayers, but these are not guilt driven.  As for a fat burger that I know was raised from a feed lot, yes I'll feel guilty if I do indulged which is fairly rare, but my guilt is lessened by the fact that I am actually doing something about and vocal against it. I have looked my food in the face many many times.

You also seem a little misinformed how apples are produced for production. They don't just fall of trees. Land is cleared, water is diverted, pesticides and herbacides dusted, fossil fules burned for transport, then insult to injury most of it is thrown out!!!!

You don't think all those piles of apples at the super market all get sold to you?  It makes no sense for a vegetarian to buy one of those apples then frown at the guy buying a chicken. It makes even less sense for the vegetarian buying one of those apples and frowning at the guy buying grass fed organic and no sense at all criticizing the guy raising his own with a kind heart to how they live.

Edited by Seeker79, 17 May 2013 - 06:03 PM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#44    redhen

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 06:01 PM

View PostToadie, on 17 May 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

Not sure what you mean by straw man argument??

You claimed that "Not eating meat will not stop animals being killed inhumane way."

A straw man argument is an argument that  easily defeats a claim (as easy as knocking down a straw man/scarecrow), but does not pertain to the original proposition. The OP claimed that eating "organic" "happy" meat is morally better than eating factory farmed animals.  You said that not eating meat will not stop animals from being cruelly killed. Right, but that wasn't the original argument.

Quote

Yes I know this but you would try go to farmer that has a good reputation, even take the next step and go out to the farm then you can see the living conditions of the animals

How about taking the next step and watch the farmer slaughter the animal? I don't see the humane part of shooting a bolt or bullet in an animals head, slitting it's throat or sticking it and bleeding it.

Quote

Any animal can suffer in the wrong hands. I don't believe having lambs or cattle grazing on land is going to cause the animal to suffer.

It is definitely going to suffer when it is slaughtered.

Quote

You can not compare slavery and eating meat because two are totally different

Both beings are treated as property, to be used as seen fit. Keep in mind we are not just talking about eating meat. If you find some roadkill or eat an animal that is already dead, I don't see a problem.

Quote

I never said you can not live without meat I said it is harder to get the right amount of nutrients if one does not eat any sort of animal

It may be more inconvenient, but it can be done. Thus, if you don't need to eat meat, as you just agreed to, it would be cruel to do so because it entails unnecessary pain and suffering.


#45    Heaven Is A Halfpipe

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 06:08 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 17 May 2013 - 05:46 PM, said:

Actually I do. Deer, wild big, and others with a bow actually.  I also raise my own chickens for eggs and ocasionally meat, have an organic garden, and am working on producing most of my meat from a small giant flemish rabbit set up. I buy organic grass raised meat from a small local meat market. We are not 100% yet, but as soon as I can start trading the meat market large rabbits for other types of meat. I will be very very close.

No one is demonizing vegitarians. If Somone wants to tell me I am immoral fur the way that I eat, I deserve the right to defend that aligation and I will point out that simple vegetable production also causes much damage, so there is noone without blood on their hands.

Please believe me, I feel no guilt what so ever eating humainly treated meat. I do have practices of respect and honor given to animals I have hunted including prayers, but these are not guilt driven.  As for a fat burger that I know was raised from a feed lot, yes I'll feel guilty if I do indulged which is fairly rare, but my guilt is lessened by the fact that I am actually doing something about and vocal against it. I have looked my food in the face many many times.

You also seem a little misinformed how apples are produced for production. They don't just fall of trees. Land is cleared, water is diverted, pesticides and herbacides dusted, fossil fines burned for transport, then insult to injury most of it is thrown out!!!!

You don't think all those piles of apples at the super market all get sold to you?  It makes no sense for a vegetarian to buy one of those apples then frown at the guy buying a chicken. It makes even less sense for the vegetarian buying one of those apples and frowning at the guy buying grass fed organic and no sense at all criticizing the guy raising his own with a kind heart to how they live.

I can respect (in some way) that you kill (most of) your own meat because I think most people wouldn't be able to do that (me included). I think there is a big difference between hunting your own meat and simply buying it down at the shops, where somebody else has done that. That old saying "out of sight, out of mind" springs to mind. It doesn't mean I think it's the right thing to do and I think I made that abundantly clear; in my ideal world the thousands of years of slaughter comes to an end. Of course, this will never happen because $$$$$ rules this world and so does the selfish/ignorant majority. It's easier to simply forget what these animals go through (on a mass scale) rather than have what is supposed to make us different from animals and that's to have a conscience.

I'm sorry but I just don't buy the argument that vegetable farming causes comparable suffering.

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