Nerves Use Sound, Not electricity?

[libertyworld]

Scientists say nerves use sound, not electricity:

The common view that nerves transmit impulses through electricity is wrong and they really transmit sound, according to a team of Danish scientists.

The Copenhagen University researchers argue that biology and medical textbooks that say nerves relay electrical impulses from the brain to the rest of the body are incorrect.

"For us as physicists, this cannot be the explanation," said Thomas Heimburg, an associate professor at the university's Niels Bohr Institute. "The physical laws of thermodynamics tell us that electrical impulses must produce heat as they travel along the nerve, but experiments find that no such heat is produced."

Heimburg, an expert in biophysics who received his PhD from the Max Planck Institute in Goettingen, Germany — where biologists and physicists often work together in a rare arrangement — developed the theory with Copenhagen University's Andrew Jackson, an expert in theoretical physics.

According to the traditional explanation of molecular biology, an electrical pulse is sent from one end of the nerve to the other with the help of electrically charged salts that pass through ion channels and a membrane that sheathes the nerves. That membrane is made of lipids and proteins.

Heimburg and Jackson theorize that sound propagation is a much more likely explanation. Although sound waves usually weaken as they spread out, a medium with the right physical properties could create a special kind of sound pulse or "soliton" that can propagate without spreading or losing strength.

The physicists say because the nerve membrane is made of a material similar to olive oil that can change from liquid to solid through temperature variations, they can freeze and propagate the solitons.

The scientists, whose work is in the Biophysical Society's Biophysical Journal, suggested that anesthetics change the melting point of the membrane and make it impossible for their theorized sound pulses to propagate.

http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/2007/03/...&frame=true

[glorybebe]

Scientists say nerves use sound, not electricity:

The common view that nerves transmit impulses through electricity is wrong and they really transmit sound, according to a team of Danish scientists.

The Copenhagen University researchers argue that biology and medical textbooks that say nerves relay electrical impulses from the brain to the rest of the body are incorrect.

"For us as physicists, this cannot be the explanation," said Thomas Heimburg, an associate professor at the university's Niels Bohr Institute. "The physical laws of thermodynamics tell us that electrical impulses must produce heat as they travel along the nerve, but experiments find that no such heat is produced."

Heimburg, an expert in biophysics who received his PhD from the Max Planck Institute in Goettingen, Germany — where biologists and physicists often work together in a rare arrangement — developed the theory with Copenhagen University's Andrew Jackson, an expert in theoretical physics.

According to the traditional explanation of molecular biology, an electrical pulse is sent from one end of the nerve to the other with the help of electrically charged salts that pass through ion channels and a membrane that sheathes the nerves. That membrane is made of lipids and proteins.

Heimburg and Jackson theorize that sound propagation is a much more likely explanation. Although sound waves usually weaken as they spread out, a medium with the right physical properties could create a special kind of sound pulse or "soliton" that can propagate without spreading or losing strength.

The physicists say because the nerve membrane is made of a material similar to olive oil that can change from liquid to solid through temperature variations, they can freeze and propagate the solitons.

The scientists, whose work is in the Biophysical Society's Biophysical Journal, suggested that anesthetics change the melting point of the membrane and make it impossible for their theorized sound pulses to propagate.

http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/2007/03/...&frame=true

Sounds very interesting

[Captain Kolak]

interesting but too complicated. The electricity theory is so much simpler.

[fylgja]

Makes no sense. Have you ever heard of an eeg? How can an eeg work if this "theory" is accurate? Not sure it I buy it, though anything is possible, I guess.

[Essene]

Interesting thought, bio energy making harmonic sounds (fields) which may create phonons (light) which could be the aura and the light energy may help the cells communicate also and even to communicate with other non local cells at the speed of light or faster which involve "torsion fields" from the harmonics of the cell. Its seems we are like a chemical battery and bio electric's may come into play along with other effects from this chemical mixture we live in which is mostly water. Just my opinion..

Makes no sense. Have you ever heard of an eeg? How can an eeg work if this "theory" is accurate? Not sure it I buy it, though anything is possible, I guess.

[frogfish]

WTF? It is proven that electrical stimulations travel through nerves and myocardial tissue. Just look at the SA node, the Bundle of His, and the Purkinje fibers. The protiens actin and myosin only contract under eletrical impulses. Also, neurotransmitters like dopamine and acetycholine are only released by electrical pulses.

[frogfish]

And like said before, just look at an EKG. It's a reading of the electrical impulses of the heart. The PQPRS segment can be traced to the initiation of the SA node, the upstoke in the AV node, and the downstroke as the impulse travles through the Bundle of His and into the Purkinje fibers (left and right ventricles).

[bee]

[scientists say nerves use sound, not electricity:

Heimburg and Jackson theorize that sound propagation is a much more likely explanation.

Interesting, Libertyworld.

Science aside....this theory makes me think of 'the music of the spheres'.....'celestial choirs'.

The effect of chanting (and humming).

The way music can tap into the emotions.

The way some noises (and some people's voices) can grate on ones

nerves. The way some noises (and some people's voices) sooth and calm.

The peace and beauty of silence.

I can't say anything scientific about Heimburg and Jackson's theory...but it FEELS like it makes sense.

[Essene]

Here is a link that may settle this. http://biologyofkundalini.com/article.php?...iontoZero-Point

Interesting, Libertyworld.

Science aside....this theory makes me think of 'the music of the spheres'.....'celestial choirs'.

The effect of chanting (and humming).

The way music can tap into the emotions.

The way some noises (and some people's voices) can grate on ones

nerves. The way some noises (and some people's voices) sooth and calm.

The peace and beauty of silence.

I can't say anything scientific about Heimburg and Jackson's theory...but it FEELS like it makes sense.

[sbradj]

Take a electric fence for example..You cant hear it...but when you brake the current theres a pop .Is it the sound of the pop that shocks or is it the current flowing through the fence that shocks? my nerves feel the current..but when that current is broke my nerves can hear it...Take a horse that is exposed to electric fence from personal experience I dont think their nerves hear it...when they touch it then their nerves feel it..take a dog or goat they can feel/smell it...get close to a weather head, itll make your hair stand on end..IMO I think its felt not heard..or is it possible it could be Both?

[libertyworld]

or is it possible it could be Both?

That may turn out to be the case.

[frogfish]

You cant hear it...but when you brake the current theres a pop .Is it the sound of the pop that shocks or is it the current flowing through the fence that shocks? my nerves feel the current..but when that current is broke my nerves can hear it...Take a horse that is exposed to electric fence from personal experience I dont think their nerves hear it...when they touch it then their nerves feel it..take a dog or goat they can feel/smell it...get close to a weather head, itll make your hair stand on end..IMO I think its felt not heard..or is it possible it could be Both

It's electrical charge, not sound...

[Startraveler]

It seems the authors were trying to account for some factors not accounted for in the conventional theory:

Various authors have speculated whether mechanical perturbations can travel along nerve axons (10) (note also two monographs by K. Kaufmann from 1989 available online at http:membranes.nbi.dkKaufmann). In fact, mechanical forces and dislocations as well as temperature responses of nerve membranes in-phase with the action potential have been found experimentally (11–16). They are accompanied by changes in the fluorescence of membrane probes and changes in turbidity and birefringence (17). None of these phenomena play a role in the Hodgkin–Huxley theory (18) that is the accepted model of nerve pulses. Most interestingly, the initial temperature increase in the nerve during the action potential is followed by a cooling, which is in-phase with voltage changes (13). This seemingly isentropic behavior of the nerve pulse is clearly not contained in the Hodgkin–Huxley theory. . .

Nevertheless, a number of unanswered questions regarding nerve propagation remain. Tasaki and coworkers presented data showing that nerve pulses can also be obtained in the absence of sodium or other monovalent cations in the external medium (30) and that tetrodotoxin, believed to block the sodium channel, alters the excitibility of nerves even in the absence of sodium (31). These findings speak against the sodium channel as an indispensable element responsible for nerve activity. Moreover, the Hodgkin–Huxley theory (18) is based on equivalent circuits (Kirchhoff circuits). It is not a thermodynamic theory, and its language contains neither temperature and pressure nor entropy, heat, or volume. Various authors have noted that the action potential is accompanied by reversible mechanical dislocations, changes in volume and temperature (11–16, 27, 32), and changes in fluorescence, turbidity, and birefringence (17). In particular, data indicate that heat release is exactly in phase with the action potential (12, 13), and that there is no net heat release after completion of the action potential. This finding suggests that the action potential is isentropic. A. V. Hill’s early work on heat production in nerves is considered in Hodgkin’s book (33), where it is noted that the heat release and absorption response during the action potential is important but is not understood (11). Given the many experimental features not explained within the Hodgkin–Huxley theory, it is surprising that it remains as unchallenged dogma. The thermodynamic data on nerves reveal many similarities to an adiabatic wave. The Hodgkin–Huxley theory is based on irreversible processes, i.e., fluxes of ions along their chemical potential gradient (across the nerve membrane or along the axon). If one assumes as here that the nerve pulse is related to the propagation of an isentropic pulse, a temporal correlation between mechanical dislocations, forces, voltage, and heat release would not be surprising but rather an intrinsic property of the pulse. Further, measured propagation velocities, which are ~100 m/s in myelinated nerves, find a satisfying explanation. In nonmyelinated nerves, propagation velocities are usually significantly slower.

The soliton suggestion seems a little out there but it's interesting, particularly since it seems much remains to be explained in this area of biology.

[crystal sage]

It seems the authors were trying to account for some factors not accounted for in the conventional theory:

The soliton suggestion seems a little out there but it's interesting, particularly since it seems much remains to be explained in this area of biology.

If you look at sound being a vibration... and what we percieve as electrical impulses as chemical reactions..

http://science.netscape.com/story/2007/06/...ing-sound-waves

"It is believed in India universe started with a vibration of sound ."

" chemistry basically is electromagnetism

on the quantistic level"

http://www.crystal-healing.com/sound.htm

FUNCTION OF SOUND IN CREATION - In the beginning was the word.

Sound can create order out of chaos. All the naturally occurring structures and shapes - from the subatomic electron to the individual atomic elements, from microscopic forms to planets, stars and galaxies, are ultimately created from intelligently organised bundles of standing waveforms possessing precise geometric structure and symmetry, formed and sustained by sound pervading the Universal medium - Even the rotational and spiralling motions are sustained by sound.

Scientific evidence for this is present in the study of CYMATICS. Fine powdered particles [lycopodia spore or talc] on a vibrating surface are subjected to particular sound frequencies - audible to the human ear. Each different frequency causes beautiful and precise geometric patterns to be formed by the particles. Gradually changing the frequency causes the pattern to change. Several different frequencies together will create increasingly complex patterns as well as rotational & spiralling movements. Similar shapes to galaxies and solar systems can even be seen to form also.

Here the vibrating surface and powder could be thought of as the Universal Medium with sound passing through, creating the waveform structures of our existence.

Many different and complex vibrational sound frequencies are harmonically generated from the primordial sound source creating our reality from the great void.

Thus, the tonal order of creation is based on the combination of many frequencies which are at precise proportion and ratio to each other. This is in fact what we call MUSIC and HARMONY as opposed to random noise and disharmony where sound frequencies are not in the correct ratio to each other with respect to a fundamental keynote. When we see the incredible order of nature within the cosmos we realise, based on the above principles, that there must be some sort of intelligent and complex, omnipresent celestial musical vibration.

and then there's the genetic music...

http://whozoo.org/mac/Music/

http://whozoo.org/mac/Music/Sources.htm

http://www.toddbarton.com/index2.asp

Edited June 14, 2007 by crystal sage

[crystal sage]

http://www.star-knowledge.net/12lawoflightsoundvibration.htm

A reference source of 'The Secret'???

http://williamwalkeratkinson.wwwhubs.com/tvib.htm

Thought Vibration:

The Law of Attraction

by William Walker Atkinson (1906)

Light and heat are manifested by vibrations of a far lower intensity than those of Thought, but the difference is solely in the rate of vibration. The annals of science throw an interesting light upon this question. Prof. Elisha Gray, an eminent scientist, says in his little book, "The Miracles of Nature:"

There is much food for speculation in the thought that there exist sound-waves that no human ear can hear, and color-waves of light that no eye can see. The long, dark, soundless space between 40,000 and 400,000,000,000,000 vibrations per second--and the infinity of range beyond 700,000,000,000,000 vibrations per second, where light ceases, in the universe of motion--makes it possible to indulge in speculation.

Each form of vibration requires its own form of instrument for registration. At present the human brain seems to be the only instrument capable of registering thought waves, although occultists say that in this century scientists will invent apparatus sufficiently delicate to catch and register such impressions

Edited June 15, 2007 by crystal sage

[Essene]

Here is a video of what sound can do. It may amaze you. If the link dont work just look up "you tube soundwaves in salt". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aV8wgnM-o0...ted&search=

If you look at sound being a vibration... and what we percieve as electrical impulses as chemical reactions..

http://science.netscape.com/story/2007/06/...ing-sound-waves

"It is believed in India universe started with a vibration of sound ."

" chemistry basically is electromagnetism

on the quantistic level"

and then there's the genetic music...

http://whozoo.org/mac/Music/

http://whozoo.org/mac/Music/Sources.htm

http://www.toddbarton.com/index2.asp

[crystal sage]

Here is a video of what sound can do. It may amaze you. If the link dont work just look up "you tube soundwaves in salt". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aV8wgnM-o0...ted&search=

Brilliant !!! ... the answer to how Crop Circles are created !!!!!!

sound vibrations from???

So add to that what DNA sound vibrations look like ... when they are played in a similar situation... we could perhaps find out what the Crop Circles mean!!!

A new language!!! The language of the Universe!!!!!!

( We could also use different powdered minerals...or combinations of them... and then experiment what patterns certain combinations of sounds... vibrations... create... )

Edited June 15, 2007 by crystal sage

[frogfish]

And what's your point crystal sage? What you post has no relevance to the topic whatsoever.

[Essene]

Frogfish dude, it has everything to do with the subject. If you watch the video it shows various changes in shapes of the salt with various sound waves and if you get down to the cellular level on how cells and nerves communicate its obvious different sound waves create different structures almost like an alphabet with different meanings for each wave pitch. I could be wrong but it seems sound waves can cause different structures that each have a different meaning and is possibly how cells and nerves communicate in almost like a sign language in a way, among other possible ways they may communicate which also may include scalar waves, phonons and even quarks so called. I really don't know, but I thought the video was pretty cool my self.

And what's your point crystal sage? What you post has no relevance to the topic whatsoever.

[frogfish]

If you watch the video it shows various changes in shapes of the salt with various sound waves and if you get down to the cellular level on how cells and nerves communicate its obvious different sound waves create different structures almost like an alphabet with different meanings for each wave pitch

That's because the sound created standing waves...interference patterns with nodes and antinodes that create the salt patterns. It a relatively simple Highschool lab.

It has nothing to do with neurons. Plus, I'm still waiting to see if anyone can tell why we have EKG readings, if our neurons communicate by sound...

[Essene]

I am sorry frogfish dude, it was meant as an visual aid on what waves can do in different oscillations as with most waves you can not see them unless you have detectors but I believe the video is more graphic so to speak. Here is a site I think I posted in the past here. Quote: Scalar waves might be the point of fundamental intersection where matter and consciousness can influence each other. Their effect is independent of distance and time and is 3-5 times stronger than that of electromagnetic fields. They are prior to, that is more fundamental than magnetic fields and they transmit information, not energy. The transmission of scalar information creates consciousness fields--which are probably Rupert Sheldrake's Morphogenic Fields. They cannot be detected by the usual instruments for measuring electric and magnetic fields, that work by interacting with electron flow and energy transmission. For this reason they are still considered theoretical. http://biologyofkundalini.com/article.php?...iontoZero-Point

WTF? It is proven that electrical stimulations travel through nerves and myocardial tissue. Just look at the SA node, the Bundle of His, and the Purkinje fibers. The protiens actin and myosin only contract under eletrical impulses. Also, neurotransmitters like dopamine and acetycholine are only released by electrical pulses.

[crystal sage]

That's because the sound created standing waves...interference patterns with nodes and antinodes that create the salt patterns. It a relatively simple Highschool lab.

It has nothing to do with neurons. Plus, I'm still waiting to see if anyone can tell why we have EKG readings, if our neurons communicate by sound...

It's all vibrational....

http://www.voxmundiproject.com/recommended_readings_15.htm

http://www.harpercollins.com.au/global_scr...59371&tc=cx

actually the EKG machines could be interpreting sound vibrations... as electricity.... if so it is only doing part of it's job... by only registering it's beats...

It would therefore leave out whole diagnostic areas.. by not registering the notes... the harmonic play of the neurons...

The phenomenon of quorum sensing

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/...40212090156.htm

"To understand this further, let's consider what music can do to your physiology. The sound of music operates on frequencies, and specific frequencies will trigger neurological changes in the transmitters of the brain:

"Each brain center generates impulses at a certain frequency based on the predominant neurotransmitters it secrets, in other words, the brains internal communication system (the language) is based on frequencies. Presumably, when we send waves of external energy at, say, 10hz, certain cells in the lower brain stem will respond because they normally fire within that particular frequency range; as a result, specific mood-altering chemicals associated with that region will be released." (TAGC - Teste Tones liner notes)

"As you can see it's literally possible to get high off music. The electrochemicals that are stimulated help to create an altered state of mind."

(Space/Time Magic p 109)

http://www.tech.plym.ac.uk/spmc/links/biom.../eeg_waves.html

http://peyote.com/jonstef/brain.htm

When pure, precise audio signals of different frequencies are delivered to the brain through stereo headphones, the two hemispheres of the brain function together to "hear" not the actual external sound signals, but a phantom third signal - a binaural beat.

Brain cells sympathetically resonate and vibrate in response to the binaural beat, in the same way a crystal goblet resonates and vibrates in response to a pure musical tone

( vibrations )

The silica found in our bodies is in the form of crystals. This silica in the connective tissues bind the body cells together. Silica is a prominent part of brain tissues also. The brain is filled with "dust’" crystal. These infinitesimal dust crystals are found in all the brain cells, especially in the third eye area, the pineal gland.

http://www.llewellynencyclopedia.com/article/279

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2003/apr200...silicon_01.html

nature physics portal - research highlights

Now, it has been found within the human brain. ... Solitons have been observed in many physical systems, including water waves, sound waves and light. ...

http://www.nature.com/physics/highlights/200205.html

The Science Behind Neural Noise Synthesizer

http://www.transparentcorp.com/products/nns/overview.php

Edited June 17, 2007 by crystal sage

[crystal sage]

Maybe by adding Cochlear Technology to the EKG machines... will help add new dimensions to understanding the brain....??

Rewiring it for sound!!!!

http://www.science.org.au/nova/029/029print.htm

Edited June 17, 2007 by crystal sage

[Spyda]

http://www.star-knowledge.net/12lawoflightsoundvibration.htm

A reference source of 'The Secret'???

Interesting... makes me remember somthing an art teacher told me years back.. it was about a guy who controled people using sound - he made a sound that made them need to go toilet (lol not running water, an instrumental), dont really remember the purpose or details but i like the theory. Resonance pops in to my head.. I think sound has alot more secrets that we need to understand.

Still dont know if i buy the sound / nerves idea as most medicine works well on the theory that they use e-pulses... but wouldnt rule it out

[STIX]

I like the idea of it being a combination of both sound and electricity... maybe it is sound, but at the ends of the nerves it gets converted into electricity in order to stimulate the muscle and that is why EKG's work

Edited June 25, 2007 by STIX