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The Necessity of Nothingness

hyper-science origin of universe space-time mind evolution

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#16    StarMountainKid

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 01:11 AM

Ok, how' this for a critique of our attempts to resolve these kinds of questions...

How accurate is the determination of the true nature of Reality as considered from our own human point of view? Do we think, from our perspective as some animal living on some planet, that we can really determine what Reality is? It seems to me, all we are doing is examining our own limited consciousness, and transferring the results of that examination upon the nature of that consciousness and upon the nature of universe at large.

We think our existence is so special that we can ascertain an exclusive and correct understanding of Reality. Reality check: we're just an accidentally evolved, hairless primate of the lowest level of intelligence that is capable of considering these questions. Our perceptions of the nature of the universe is extremely limited in scope, yet our inflated egos think we can comprehend ourselves and our external environment.

Our science and our philosophy are puny accomplishments. When we think we can comprehend the nature of Reality, we are delusional. Whatever Reality may be, its nature is far too vast in extent and magnitude for the capabilities of our human intellect to ever understand or explain. Our comprehension of Reality, as Kurt Vonnegut said, is a tea leaf's comprehension of the East India Company.  

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#17    Professor T

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 01:48 AM

That is a brilliantly worded Critique!!!

The fact that we are becoming conscious of these failures in the examination of reality say's a lot about how far humanity has come and far we need to go. The fact we are asking these near unanswerable questions about perception and life and the universe speaks volumes. Sure our science and Philosophies are small in comparison to the tasks of comprehending reality.. And speaking of small comparisons, isn't it grand that in all of these questions of reality we haven't forgotten something as poignant as a tea leaf..


#18    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 12:16 PM

View PostStarMountainKid, on 02 September 2012 - 01:11 AM, said:

Ok, how' this for a critique of our attempts to resolve these kinds of questions...

How accurate is the determination of the true nature of Reality as considered from our own human point of view? Do we think, from our perspective as some animal living on some planet, that we can really determine what Reality is? It seems to me, all we are doing is examining our own limited consciousness, and transferring the results of that examination upon the nature of that consciousness and upon the nature of universe at large.

We think our existence is so special that we can ascertain an exclusive and correct understanding of Reality. Reality check: we're just an accidentally evolved, hairless primate of the lowest level of intelligence that is capable of considering these questions. Our perceptions of the nature of the universe is extremely limited in scope, yet our inflated egos think we can comprehend ourselves and our external environment.

Our science and our philosophy are puny accomplishments. When we think we can comprehend the nature of Reality, we are delusional. Whatever Reality may be, its nature is far too vast in extent and magnitude for the capabilities of our human intellect to ever understand or explain. Our comprehension of Reality, as Kurt Vonnegut said, is a tea leaf's comprehension of the East India Company.  


Please show me that our perceptions and reality are two different things.
Please shoe me that our perceptions and minds are two different things.

It isnt a case that reality is beyond our understanding its a case of we are our reality but live in denial about it.

Edited by Mr Right Wing, 02 September 2012 - 12:17 PM.


#19    StarMountainKid

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 03:27 PM

Mr Right Wing said:

Please show me that our perceptions and reality are two different things.
Please shoe me that our perceptions and minds are two different things.

What about the aspects of reality we do not perceive by our senses? Are they therefore not real? Our brain creates its own incomplete version of reality from our limited ability to perceive the totality of the physical world around us. What the mind considers as reality is a construct of the brain, and is restricted by the limited capabilities of our senses.

Our perceptions and minds are the same, but are deficient in scope. What lies "out there" is vastly more complex and unperceived than the simple model of reality the brain constructs for itself. We are only conscious of our own consciousness, which is not a true representation of the actual nature of Reality.

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#20    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 05:19 PM

View PostStarMountainKid, on 02 September 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

1. What about the aspects of reality we do not perceive by our senses?
2. Are they therefore not real? Our brain creates its own incomplete version of reality from our limited ability to perceive the totality of the physical world around us. What the mind considers as reality is a construct of the brain, and is restricted by the limited capabilities of our senses.
3. Our perceptions and minds are the same, but are deficient in scope. What lies "out there" is vastly more complex and unperceived than the simple model of reality the brain constructs for itself. We are only conscious of our own consciousness, which is not a true representation of the actual nature of Reality.

1. Please explain why you think perceptions and reality are two seperate things.
2. If you arent aware of something what makes you think it exists? Quantum Mechanics shows us when no information is being gained on the atom it ceases to be an atom.
3. Please tell me about 1 single thing which exists independantly from perception. We can only ever know perception.

Edited by Mr Right Wing, 02 September 2012 - 05:20 PM.


#21    StarMountainKid

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 07:53 PM

Mr Right Wing said:

1. Please explain why you think perceptions and reality are two seperate things.
2. If you arent aware of something what makes you think it exists? Quantum Mechanics shows us when no information is being gained on the atom it ceases to be an atom.
3. Please tell me about 1 single thing which exists independantly from perception. We can only ever know perception.

1. Because we do not perceive the complete nature of reality. We only perceive what our senses are sensitive to, and our senses are limited in scope. We do not directly perceive the four fundamental forces of nature, for instance, we only perceive their effects. If our perception determined reality, we would be directly perceiving these forces. Our perception would be creating these forces, as well as many other aspects of the physical world of which we are not aware. Our perception of reality is incomplete, therefore perception and reality are two separate things.

2. When an elementary particle exists in superposition, that superposition itself is existent. We can not be aware of an elementary particle in that state, but that state of potential must still exist. Just because we are not directly aware of superposition doesn't mean it doesn't exist as itself..  Atoms may still exist and behave as atoms as they interact with each other, even when they are not being observed by our consciousness.

3. The nuclear strong force. Yes, we can only ever know perception, but our perception is limited, and does not describe the complete nature of reality.

As I said before, our brain creates an interior model of reality, but that model is inadequate in its description of the actual external reality. We are conscious only of our own limited consciousness.

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#22    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 01:36 PM

View PostStarMountainKid, on 02 September 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

1. Because we do not perceive the complete nature of reality. We only perceive what our senses are sensitive to, and our senses are limited in scope. We do not directly perceive the four fundamental forces of nature, for instance, we only perceive their effects. If our perception determined reality, we would be directly perceiving these forces.
2. Our perception would be creating these forces, as well as many other aspects of the physical world of which we are not aware. Our perception of reality is incomplete, therefore perception and reality are two separate things.
3. When an elementary particle exists in superposition, that superposition itself is existent.
4. Atoms may still exist and behave as atoms as they interact with each other, even when they are not being observed by our consciousness.
5. The nuclear strong force. Yes, we can only ever know perception, but our perception is limited, and does not describe the complete nature of reality.
6. As I said before, our brain creates an interior model of reality, but that model is inadequate in its description of the actual external reality. We are conscious only of our own limited consciousness.

1. How do you know something exists unless you can perceive it? I think you are getting muddled up with human beings making themselves extra senses (infra-red cameras, giegor counters, etc) which extends their range of perception.
2. Again you fail to understand that the human mind creates what you experience as reality. Reality is perceptions.
3. A super-position is not an object or a thing that exists. It is simply potential.
4. If you isolate your mind from an atom, or an atom from your mind then there is no atom.
5. Reality is perceptions. Something which cant be perceived doesnt exist in reality. Its like when the isolated atom ceases to exist.
6. No it isnt. There is nothing that exists independant of the mind.


#23    StarMountainKid

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 02:39 PM

Mr Right Wing said:

2. Again you fail to understand that the human mind creates what you experience as reality.

Here you agree with me! If your sentence is read from my point of view, this is my whole argument. I could rebut you point for point, but I think we just disagree on the subject. Maybe we should just leave it at that, unless you want to continue, which is ok with me. In any case, I've enjoyed our discussion.

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#24    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 03:18 PM

View PostStarMountainKid, on 03 September 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

Here you agree with me! If your sentence is read from my point of view, this is my whole argument. I could rebut you point for point, but I think we just disagree on the subject. Maybe we should just leave it at that, unless you want to continue, which is ok with me. In any case, I've enjoyed our discussion.

Lets leave QM for now and take a look at people.

Your eyes detect photons, electrical signals are sent to the brain, the brain constructs what you call vision from them. The visual experience is constructed in your mind it doesnt exist out there seperate from your being. Reality (visual experience + sensations of feeling, touch and taste + sound experience) is constructed in your mind it doesnt exist out there seperate from your being.

Many argue that doesnt mean there is nothing objective out there underlying everything so now lets include QM.

Experiments show that when you have a super-position (which is just potential) and seek information (by measuring) you collapse the potential and bring into being particles. When you stop seeking information on a particle it stops existing as it dissolves back to a super-position.

So what exactly is out there which is objective? You are living in a self-creating feedback loop there is nothing out there which is objective (or any outhere for that matter).

Edited by Mr Right Wing, 03 September 2012 - 03:19 PM.


#25    StarMountainKid

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 04:43 PM

Mr Right Wing said:

1. Your eyes detect photons, electrical signals are sent to the brain, the brain constructs what you call vision from them. The visual experience is constructed in your mind, it doesnt exist out there seperate from your being.

I agree. What the brain constructs from electrical signals is in your mind, it (the contend of your mind) doesn't exist out there separate from your being.

Quote

2. Reality (visual experience + sensations of feeling, touch and taste + sound experience) is constructed in your mind it doesnt exist out there seperate from your being.

I agree. The model of reality the brain creates from its sense receptors doesn't exist out there separate from you mind, this internal model of reality is a simulation of Reality, and only exists within the mind.

Quote

3. Experiments show that when you have a super-position (which is just potential) and seek information (by measuring) you collapse the potential and bring into being particles. When you stop seeking information on a particle it stops existing as it dissolves back to a super-position.

Yes, but when you are not observing or stop seeking information from a star somewhere in the galaxy, does it not behave in the same manner as when you are observing it? If so, its reality is separate from your mind when the mind is not observing the star.

A photon traveling some distance is still a photon, whether as superposition or as a particle. A photon in superposition means its potential exact location withing that superposition cannot be determined.  There is still a potentially resolvable photon existing in its superposition state, the only difference is its exact location is indeterminate.

I would consider elementary particles in superposition still an aspect of Reality.

Quote

So what exactly is out there which is objective? You are living in a self-creating feedback loop there is nothing out there which is objective (or any outhere for that matter)

Everything out there is objective, even particles in superposition, as superposition itself is an aspect of Reality. Yes, we are living in a self-creating feedback loop. That is the limiting factor for our conscious awareness. We only experience this incomplete internal loop created by the brain as determined by our senses.

I think it is a error to consider the content of the mind to represent the totality of Reality, much less to create Reality. The mind creates its own internal reality, which is separate from the aspects of Reality it is unable to experience.

There must be an "outthere" for the mind to create its model.

]

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#26    Beany

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 05:30 PM

You know, I LIKE reality. I'm happy in it, happy to be here now, happy about my past because it brought me to this every-changing moment of grace & beauty. I guess I'm sort of done with philosophizing, done with searching for answers, and done with religious/spiritual philosophies arrived at by others. These days, I try to live my own spiritual/higher truths outside of a body of knowledge, content with letting  Spirit/Divinity reveal itself. I'm even questioning the concept of Spirit; I'm beginning to think there is no divinity, but in fact, everyone and every thing around me just simply is, I'm part of that, it's part of me, and while it may have qualities of the divine, it isn't necessarily sacred in, as in a religious context, but sacred in a sense that it supports all life.

Is it possible that we we have come to use religious/spiritual terms to describe the whole? Because the whole is so awesome, so beautiful, so complex, so diverse, so immense, that it is almost impossible to conceive every part of it? Does this make any sort of sense to any one? I'm struggling to find words for what are my changing perceptions. So maybe this DOES go back to I AM, maybe that's all that essentially needs to be said or known, and each of us experiences or explores what that means to us in our lifetimes. So I guess I'm not really done with philosophizing, contrary to what I said previously!


#27    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 06:26 PM

View PostStarMountainKid, on 03 September 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

1. Yes, but when you are not observing or stop seeking information from a star somewhere in the galaxy, does it not behave in the same manner as when you are observing it? If so, its reality is separate from your mind when the mind is not observing the star.
2. A photon traveling some distance is still a photon, whether as superposition or as a particle. A photon in superposition means its potential exact location withing that superposition cannot be determined.
3. Everything out there is objective
4. Superposition itself is an aspect of Reality.
5. Yes, we are living in a self-creating feedback loop. That is the limiting factor for our conscious awareness. We only experience this incomplete internal loop created by the brain as determined by our senses.
6. I think it is a error to consider the content of the mind to represent the totality of Reality, much less to create Reality. The mind creates its own internal reality, which is separate from the aspects of Reality it is unable to experience.
7. There must be an "outthere" for the mind to create its model.

1. In quantum mechanics it becomes harder to prevent information leakage between two objects as they become bigger. This is because theres more information you have to prevent from leaking from one to the other. If you close your eyes does the star in the night sky cease to exist? That depends if closing your eyes is enough to block all information leakage between it and you. If its isolated from you then yes it ceases to exist becoming a super-position instead.
2. It is only a photon when information is being gained on it.
3. If you take away mind what exists?
4. A super-position is not a particle, it is not material, it has no substance to it at all, it is just potential.
5. The loop is full as without your mind there are no perceptions and no measuring going on to bring into existance the universe from potential.
6. You're dividing reality and perception as if they were two different things.
7. A self-contained feedback loop doesnt require 'an outthere'


#28    StarMountainKid

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 11:16 PM

Mr. Right Wing, I believe I understand your position on this subject, but I don't think we will ever agree with each other, or convince each other that one of our opposing views is correct.. If we continue with this discussion, we'll just continue to go round and round. I think we both may have stated our positions as well as we can, so far.

We can continue, if you like, but It will only continue as a presentation of opposing views. I say this in a friendly way. Maybe we both should just move on to some other subject in the future. If so, it's been fun. There are not many of us who take an interest in these kinds of profound subjects, so I think we both (as well as others who comment on these topics) should feel good about ourselves, in that we don't spend all our time in deep thought about the newest reality show on television.

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#29    jugoso

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 10:56 PM

A special thanks to Mr.Right Wing and StarMountainKid for your time and elequency in addressing the OP   . It really helped to deepen my understanding on a number of things. They are certainly interesting concepts to contemplate and who knows.....maybe somehow you are both right! :rofl:

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#30    lightly

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 12:40 AM

i think nothingness is self explanatory .  
     ...   If i may jump in late...  i can't understand how Reality can be in MY, or anyone's,  mind alone.
    If there are two of us in a room ..  and I dropped  dead.. did the Reality of the universe change?    Did the perceptions, mind, or reality of the other person in the room change?   .. nope.

I can get behind the idea of some sort of all inclusive universal cosmic consciousness as  being the source of Reality  .. if that's the idea ?     .. but not separate "minds".

These sorts of questions/arguments always remind me of the tree falling in the forest gag.    Things happen  , whether we know it or not. :)   And nothing ever happened in nothingness.  .. potential is somethingness?

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.




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