122 replies to this topic

[Alienated Being]

Seeker79, on 24 November 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

This is completely incorrect. We have plenty of evidence, and science says absolutely nothing about an afterlife... It can't possibly.

We have plenty of evidence? Really? What evidence do we have? I would be interested in seeing what evidence you provide to the table. What we understand about how the human body and how it operates, it is that when we die... our bodies cease function, and begin to decompose. We have no sense of awareness; all of our sense are completely revoked as our brain is what is in control of everything. Once that dies, we lose all sense of consciousness... You won't know that you are dead when you die. Do not go and take experiences after clinical death, either, as clinical death is only concluded when the heart stops... not when the brain dies.

Oh, and I don't want any "testimonials" or near-death experiences. I want other evidence, because as far as I am concerned, those agents are not evidence for the afterlife -- they are evidence of what people perceive as being the afterlife, and I am not looking for misinterpreted perception.

[Seeker79]

Sean93, on 24 November 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

Oh, NDE'S...thought it would be something more mind blowing that that, NDE's are debated all over the place, some think it's brain activity, others think it's a genuine after life. Of course, they vary from God to God, culture to culture, faith to faith so either it's to do with culture or there IS  indeed an after life but not affiliated with any of our Earthly religions OR that all the religions are right, one of the accounts on that site you linked is that a woman saw a girl turn into a mermaid? I want some of what she's smoking!

People have told me that I have had astral projections before. I have said it was Sleep Paralysis. Y'see, I get sleep paralysis a lot due to anxiety but every time I open my eyes in Sleep Paralysis, I can see my room exactly as it is, to the detail. I once even saw myself standing beside my Tv. If the room is bright, I 'wake up' in brightness, if it's dark, I 'wake up' in darkness, even if I change room and awake in SP, I can see that other room before me. I think Astral Projection is balls and if it's real I must be ******* great at it because I can do it any time I'm tired.

What I'm saying is, people are quick to jump onto the 'extra-ordinary' bandwagon when something weird happens and say that science can't explain it. Of course, it is important to note that the effects of NDE's have been brought on in test's by stimulation of the Temporal Lobe, you know, the Godly presence etc. One of the effects of people being near death is a feeling of indifference and seeing a tunnel. Well, a bully once came behind me and strangled me so hard, that I went limp and felt nothing, my mind was almost blank and before me was the ceiling, which I was staring back at through tunnelled vision. I knew I was in the class room, but I felt nothing. This went on for a few seconds and was WEIRD but I eventually got back up and felt numb all over - my oxygen depraved brain most likely.

I have debated all of these things before. Just research the NDE threads here on um.. You will see that these "scientific" explanations are not really scientific or logical at all.  Just the suggestion that an experience is not real because it can be induced is silly to think about. Anyway I did not want this to blow up into an NDE debate. But the current arguments do not hold up to scrutiny, and are not  "scientific" at all.

And like I said its just one body of evidence, then as you mentioned there astral travelers, then deductive evidences in probability... On and on.

[Star of the Sea]

Hi Bling,

I wish I could prove to you that there is life after death. For me I know there is... I don't want to go into specifics on here, but I lost my twin sis 8 years ago and let's just say "I know she is ok".

Edited by Star of the Sea, 24 November 2012 - 09:33 PM.

[Seeker79]

Alienated Being, on 24 November 2012 - 08:08 PM, said:

We have plenty of evidence? Really? What evidence do we have? I would be interested in seeing what evidence you provide to the table. What we understand about how the human body and how it operates, it is that when we die... our bodies cease function, and begin to decompose. We have no sense of awareness; all of our sense are completely revoked as our brain is what is in control of everything. Once that dies, we lose all sense of consciousness... You won't know that you are dead when you die. Do not go and take experiences after clinical death, either, as clinical death is only concluded when the heart stops... not when the brain dies.

Oh, and I don't want any "testimonials" or near-death experiences. I want other evidence, because as far as I am concerned, those agents are not evidence for the afterlife -- they are evidence of what people perceive as being the afterlife, and I am not looking for misinterpreted perception.

This is because you are a fundamentalist. You have an undieing faith in pure materialism and empiricism. The first of which is prooven to be a philosophy not based in reality the second a completely flawed approach to test the extremes of fundamental reality.

You have zero evidence that there is no awareness after brain death. This is a brain as a producer of conciousness philosoph. In fact closely studied events would seem to suggest otherwise. Notice I did not say proove. It's just evidence not proof. We need a greater body of evidence to approach "proof".

That's nice that you perceive it to be that way. But quite obviously it's evidence for a far majority of people reguarfdess of your philosophically  adopted rules for what constituts as evidence or not evidence.

In truth you have no framework to understand at what point Somone would become aware of the spirit world upon approaching death along a continuum of conciousness. Or even how the information of the person would be attached to a body if indeed there is a spirit world. The definition for "death" is now all over the place. It is not your place to define it. If death is cessation of awareness then you would be right, but as the only kind of evidence that can exist if such a thing is true is suggesting, awareness may not stop once the body stops functioning even the brain. Creative scienceism conjecture dosnt cut it.

It dosnt matter an iota about what you want or do not want for evidence. Fortunately illogical bias based in scienceism does not rule the day.

Edited by Seeker79, 24 November 2012 - 09:41 PM.

[Kafkaesque]

What do I believe happens when a person dies?

Well, the universe is a very strange and expansive place. There's no direct evidence to empirically suggest that there's an afterlife, but I suppose if there was, I probably wouldn't get in. All joking aside, I'm not sure if I believe in reincarnation.. As young children we often have strange memories. I know for a fact I did. I often wonder if we don't remember anything after we die because we're born again, and vice versa. The universe is ridiculously large, so if reincarnation could possibly be real, it would make sense if we were reincarnated in a different part of the universe where the rules of existence are different because of the different circumstances for the environment.. Time is relative, so if we die who's not to say our consciousness doesn't transfer to different parts of the universe in different "times" where once existed great civilizations, or even primitive civilizations for that matter. Civilizations that, by the rules of relativity, could have once existed and been completely untraceable after their destruction because of the amount of time it takes for light to travel..

Or we just die and nothing happens. I don't know. I'm pretty alive at the moment.

[_Only]

Cybele, on 24 November 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:

Now this is making me curious as to what anesthesia actually does to the brain...

I don't know, but I know I've woken up under light anesthesia, to look up at the clock and see the second hand flying around the clock on the wall in front of me, and the minute hand move at an equally rapid, but different, pace. It was as if someone pressed fast forward in life.

[Seeker79]

Cybele, on 24 November 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:

Even in sleep there are varying levels of awareness. For anyone who's been under anesthesia for major surgery (which I had the misfortune of requiring on my eye at the tender age of 14), the time between going under and waking up is just completely gone. There seems to be absolutely no consciousness or any sort of transition between these two points. It's striking, really.

This is what I imagine death to be like except, you know, you can't wake up because your body has rotted to the point where it can't sustain neural activity. What I described was neither a good or bad experience. We fear change and the unknown, so we invent stories and interpret our experiences so as to comfort ourselves. I do not believe our consciousness survives death, though I think it can certainly do funny things while we're dying, which we can then report if we're "given a second chance" which doesn't come with significant brain damage.

Now this is making me curious as to what anesthesia actually does to the brain...

No conciousness... Or no memory of conciousness... Just because you don't remember something dosnt mean it was not happening.

[Alienated Being]

Seeker79, on 24 November 2012 - 09:39 PM, said:

This is because you are a fundamentalist. You have an undieing faith in pure materialism and empiricism.

No, I am a realist who does not take too kindly to nonsensical metaphysical mumbojumbo.

Quote

You have zero evidence that there is no awareness after brain death.

After reading this, I take you as seriously as Mr Walker and Lion6969.

[lightly]

'We'  still haven't figured out completely what happens  when you live ...   one thing at a time

[Rlyeh]

Seeker79, on 24 November 2012 - 09:21 PM, said:

I have debated all of these things before. Just research the NDE threads here on um..

Pay special attention when lack of NDEs are brought up, seeker ignores them because they don't fit his confirmation bias.

[Rlyeh]

Seeker79, on 24 November 2012 - 09:39 PM, said:

You have zero evidence that there is no awareness after brain death.

Can you give an example of awareness without a brain?

Quote

In truth you have no framework to understand at what point Somone would become aware of the spirit world upon approaching death along a continuum of conciousness. Or even how the information of the person would be attached to a body if indeed there is a spirit world. The definition for "death" is now all over the place. It is not your place to define it. If death is cessation of awareness then you would be right, but as the only kind of evidence that can exist if such a thing is true is suggesting, awareness may not stop once the body stops functioning even the brain. Creative scienceism conjecture dosnt cut it.

You're inventing your own jargon then criticising science for not conforming to your arbitrary terms.

[Cybele]

Seeker79, on 24 November 2012 - 10:01 PM, said:

No conciousness... Or no memory of conciousness... Just because you don't remember something dosnt mean it was not happening.

It seems to be fundamentally different from normal sleep or waking consciousness, from an electrochemical perspective. The parts of the brain lose their integration, though of course there is isolated activity; you are not "brain-dead" during anesthesia, but that doesn't necessarily mean you're conscious in any familiar sense of the word.

http://www.latimes.c...0,1408053.story
http://healthland.ti...der-anesthesia/

You may insert your beliefs into unknown areas of life and death and try to prove them to others, if you wish. Your past efforts seem to have failed to convince anyone other than yourself.

Edited by Cybele, 25 November 2012 - 03:10 AM.

[RavenEyes19]

There's this Mark Twain quote that I like "I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it."

I think when I die I will return to the same state I was in before birth (nonexistance) This honestly used to terrify me, but not anymore. It's the process of dying and the potential pain that I fear, but death itself doesn't seem so scary.
I've been under anesthesia as well and I imagine it's like that. It's very strange blacking out and then immediately waking up (having not felt the time pass)
I can't take NDEs as proof of an afterlife. People who 'die' and come back aren't brain dead..they've gone into cardiac arrest. It's likely that they are experiencing vivid dreams or hallucinations as the brain is being starved of oxygen.

[Seeker79]

Alienated Being, on 24 November 2012 - 10:14 PM, said:

After reading this, I take you as seriously as Mr Walker and Lion6969.

That is one of the best compliments I have had on UM.

Rlyeh, on 24 November 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:

Can you give an example of awareness without a brain?

You're inventing your own jargon then criticising science for not conforming to your arbitrary terms.

Pam Reynolds.

I certainly am not.

[Seeker79]

Cybele, on 25 November 2012 - 02:59 AM, said:

It seems to be fundamentally different from normal sleep or waking consciousness, from an electrochemical perspective. The parts of the brain lose their integration, though of course there is isolated activity; you are not "brain-dead" during anesthesia, but that doesn't necessarily mean you're conscious in any familiar sense of the word.

http://www.latimes.c...0,1408053.story
http://healthland.ti...der-anesthesia/

You may insert your beliefs into unknown areas of life and death and try to prove them to others, if you wish. Your past efforts seem to have failed to convince anyone other than yourself.

So.... That dosnt mean that there is no awareness... Don't you see what you are doing....assuming the conclusion. It's circular reasoning.

One cannot convince the faithful Cybele, you should be very aware of that. One can only point out the illogic of their arguments and hope at some point they will deconstruct their bias on their own. There is not a single shred of evidence that NDEs are anything other than they apear to be. I'll challenge you to find it.