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A Battle of Two Muslim Women

niqab france spitzer cnn

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#16    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 06:07 PM

View PostYamato, on 07 June 2012 - 03:56 PM, said:

I'm fleshing out my position which is based on what we actually have a right to do. (SNIP)

No one is stopping you from  fleshing your position..but you can do that easy without directing it all at me... You have not addressed my posts..

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 07 June 2012 - 06:32 PM.

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#17    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 06:17 PM

View PostTaun, on 07 June 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

I was kind of hoping this "battle" involved a large pit of jello, mud or oil or something...

What a let down...

Ha ha what is it with some men and women fighting in jello? :P

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#18    Taun

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 06:20 PM

View PostEuphorbia, on 07 June 2012 - 05:55 PM, said:

I am a little torn between the right to be veiled or not.

I can't speak for France but in the United States:
  • On all identification that requires a photo ID, the picture must be taken unveiled.
  • If driving a car they must be unveiled so the driver and passengers can be seen. This is the same as in our laws that limit the amount of tinting on the windows so police officers can see in. You don't really have a right to privacy in your own vehicle out in public.
  • If entering any stores they must remain unveiled. Stores have surveillance cameras for a reason....to identify shoplifters or robbers.
  • Banks and other places (especially large venues) will also not let you in because it is the same as wearing a mask.
On the flip side:
  • They should be able to wear them at home or at friends houses.
  • Just walking down the street might be acceptable ( Can't think of a reason why not.)
But , if a woman wearing the veil tried to talk to me, I would ask her to remove it or I probably wouldn't speak to her. When I talk to someone in person I want to see their eyes and their facial expressions. These convey a lot about a person and add meaning to the conversation. For this same reason I don't like talking to people wearing sunglasses and always remove mine if in a conversation.

If they can live with these rules then I am OK with it......although I've never actually seen anyone wear the veil in person.......only in pictures or on TV.

Agree with your post mostly... but the odds of a veiled woman coming up and speaking to you are next to nil...
They really are not encouraged to talk to strangers (unless they have no choice)...  When I was in Iraq, troops
out on patrol were told to not talk directly to women, but to get a male family member to 'relay' the message, even
though she might be standing right there yelling at you...

This didn't always work of course - but that was the cultural expectation...


#19    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 06:32 PM

View PostTaun, on 07 June 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:


Agree with your post mostly... but the odds of a veiled woman coming up and speaking to you are next to nil...
They really are not encouraged to talk to strangers (unless they have no choice)...  When I was in Iraq, troops
out on patrol were told to not talk directly to women, but to get a male family member to 'relay' the message, even
though she might be standing right there yelling at you...

This didn't always work of course - but that was the cultural expectation...

Wow that is so weird and very odd way to live...  I find it hard to wrap my head around that... Go figure

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#20    Yamato

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 06:52 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 07 June 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

No one is stopping you from  fleshing your position..but you can do that easy without directing it all at me... You have not addressed my posts..
I'm not directing anything at you that I'm not directing at everyone else including myself.  There's no reason to take it personally.  As for not addressing your posts, I'm sorry if you feel that way.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#21    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 06:58 PM

View PostYamato, on 07 June 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

I'm not directing anything at you that I'm not directing at everyone else including myself.  There's no reason to take it personally.  As for not addressing your posts, I'm sorry if you feel that way.

You quoted my posts  .. When we quote someone's post,  shot in the dark but that usually means we are addressing their posts   lol

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#22    Knight Of Shadows

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 07:23 PM

so what i can conclude and understand is that they might ban islamic traditional cover
due to the fear of that cover is being used as mean to hide personality
such as mentioned cases of bank robbery or shoplifting etc etc etc

but then we are missing the point here .. is that this religious cover is being USED by your corrupted societies
by YOUR corrupted individals to do corrupted deeds
so basically you're blaming the islamic cover or clothing on the actions the might be done by the filth of your societies
your own theifs and murderers etc etc etc and you know you got alot of those worthless criminals
that enough for you to fear that a tradtional or religious clothes that cover's one face might be a danger
because YOUR own socitiy would use it as way to crime " which other countries with islamic majorities have those cover religious clothes everywhere
and it wasn't used or been abused by robberies or such actions "

therefore the problem root is within your own western society not the islamic clothes
and personally i think if they wanna ban them .. at least have the guts to put it the same way i did above
and say the truth that " our society is way too filthy and might used such code of clothes to do nasty crimes "

. don't blame me now on being harsh ... freedom of speech !

Edited by Knight Of Shadows, 07 June 2012 - 07:30 PM.

by the name of Allah the Gracious the Merciful
Say, "I seek refuge in the Lord of daybreak From the evil of that which He created
And from the evil of darkness when it settles And from the evil of the blowers in knots
And from the evil of an envier when he envies"
truthful was Allah The Most High And Great


#23    Euphorbia

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 07:28 PM

View PostTaun, on 07 June 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

Agree with your post mostly... but the odds of a veiled woman coming up and speaking to you are next to nil...
They really are not encouraged to talk to strangers (unless they have no choice)...  When I was in Iraq, troops
out on patrol were told to not talk directly to women, but to get a male family member to 'relay' the message, even
though she might be standing right there yelling at you...

This didn't always work of course - but that was the cultural expectation...

In a predominantly Muslim country I would agree with you. But in a western country you never know. Some that wear the veil might be a little more westernized than one would think. Odds are they wouldn't but again, you never know.....

Get three coffins ready.

My mistake, four coffins.

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#24    Taun

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 07:35 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 07 June 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

Ha ha what is it with some men and women fighting in jello? :P

Copious quantities of beer helps...


#25    Yamato

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 07:38 PM

View PostEuphorbia, on 07 June 2012 - 05:55 PM, said:

I am a little torn between the right to be veiled or not.

I can't speak for France but in the United States:
  • On all identification that requires a photo ID, the picture must be taken unveiled.
  • If driving a car they must be unveiled so the driver and passengers can be seen. This is the same as in our laws that limit the amount of tinting on the windows so police officers can see in. You don't really have a right to privacy in your own vehicle out in public.
  • If entering any stores they must remain unveiled. Stores have surveillance cameras for a reason....to identify shoplifters or robbers.
  • Banks and other places (especially large venues) will also not let you in because it is the same as wearing a mask.
On the flip side:
  • They should be able to wear them at home or at friends houses.
  • Just walking down the street might be acceptable ( Can't think of a reason why not.)
But , if a woman wearing the veil tried to talk to me, I would ask her to remove it or I probably wouldn't speak to her. When I talk to someone in person I want to see their eyes and their facial expressions. These convey a lot about a person and add meaning to the conversation. For this same reason I don't like talking to people wearing sunglasses and always remove mine if in a conversation.

If they can live with these rules then I am OK with it......although I've never actually seen anyone wear the veil in person.......only in pictures or on TV.
I acknowledge why you're torn and think you've thought it out well.  Your laundry list is prudent, yet government is great at finding exceptions to our liberties just like that, and its intentions for doing so are always good as I'm sure yours are.   We can broach the topic of security issues, but it's an extracurricular activity not framed by the differences between these two women in the video.   On this matter, I again agree with the woman in the niqab, and with you as well.  I agree security is an important consideration in some circumstances and in those, we should show our faces.

That said, I can wear a wig, a hat, grow a beard and dye it, wear sunglasses that even hide my eyes, and hide more of my appearance than a woman in a niqab and yet I don't hear any rush of agreement to ban such preferences in my appearance in the grand quest that is always the federal government making us "safe".   It's more specific to Muslims than that, it's more discriminatory than that.    Rules about going into stores isn't the federal government's business, that is typically a matter of store policy.   If businesses want to discriminate and risk shooting themselves in the foot in the pursuit of security, that's their responsibility.  Taking risks is a business's job.

Using bad words in speech, speaking dishonestly, or hiding one's true feelings with false emotional expressions wouldn't be conducive to a quality conversation either, but likewise, I don't want government enforcing legislation that seeks to control or ban those behaviors.   Maybe behind her veil, you have to judge her by what she says and not what she looks like.   Don't tell me that can't be used to advantage by some women.  I can understand why some women want to wear clothes like this and I respect their right to do so.  Our visual brains may feel deprived by that, but our auditory brains could use the workout!

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#26    Euphorbia

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 07:39 PM

View PostKnight Of Shadows, on 07 June 2012 - 07:23 PM, said:

so what i can conclude and understand is that they might ban islamic traditional cover
due to the fear of that cover is being used as mean to hide personality
such as mentioned cases of bank robbery or shoplifting etc etc etc

but then we are missing the point here .. is that this religious cover is being USED by your corrupted socities
by YOUR corrupted individals to do corrupted deeds
so basicall you're blaming the islamic cover or clothing on the actions the might be done by the filth of your socities
your own theifs and murderers etc etc etc and you know you got alot of those worthless criminals
that enough for you to fear that a tradtional or religious clothes that cover's one face might be a danger
because YOUR own socitiy would use it as way to crime " which other countries with islamic majorities have those cover religious clothes everywhere
and it wasn't used or been abused by robberies or such actions "

therefore the problem root is within your own western society not the islamic clothes
and personally i think if they wanna ban them .. at least have the guts to put it the same way i did above
and say the truth that " our society is way too filthy and might used such code of clothes to do nasty crimes "

. don't blame me now on being harsh ... freedom of speech !

All societies have corruption, yours included. Like it or not all people over here have to have their faces exposed in most public buildings, or to drive or fly, etc. That's just the way it is. This applies to all people, not just those that wear the veil!

Even though it applies all year around, at Halloween most stores here specifically state with signs that masks (this includes veils) cannot be worn inside the store.

Get three coffins ready.

My mistake, four coffins.

Separation of corporation and state!

#27    Knight Of Shadows

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 07:40 PM

View PostTaun, on 07 June 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:


Agree with your post mostly... but the odds of a veiled woman coming up and speaking to you are next to nil...
They really are not encouraged to talk to strangers (unless they have no choice)...  When I was in Iraq, troops
out on patrol were told to not talk directly to women, but to get a male family member to 'relay' the message, even
though she might be standing right there yelling at you...

This didn't always work of course - but that was the cultural expectation...
nope this is not part of any culture
but my personal guess is being alongside with an army that raped their citizians women
let alone bombing their shelters which had children and families
and tortured their men in prison might have had something to do of women not talking to you directly

the only way women would not talk to some one directly is the thought that person is viewed
as .. umm unworthy or viewed as threat or enemy etc etc etc
sorry though it's not what i think it's how i guess it's explained but i just wanted to make it clear
there's no such thing in our cultures
but to tradtions or cutlure there is no such thing that prevent women from talking directly to normal men

by the name of Allah the Gracious the Merciful
Say, "I seek refuge in the Lord of daybreak From the evil of that which He created
And from the evil of darkness when it settles And from the evil of the blowers in knots
And from the evil of an envier when he envies"
truthful was Allah The Most High And Great


#28    Knight Of Shadows

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 07:45 PM

View PostEuphorbia, on 07 June 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

All societies have corruption, yours included. Like it or not all people over here have to have their faces exposed in most public buildings, or to drive or fly, etc. That's just the way it is. This applies to all people, not just those that wear the veil!

Even though it applies all year around, at Halloween most stores here specifically state with signs that masks (this includes veils) cannot be worn inside the store.
indeed and mine might be way more corrupted in some means
it's just my socitiy did not dig low enough to use religious costumes or clothes as mean to crimes
" my socitiy not my goverment coz the latter have gone worst than animals in their corruption "

my socitiy does not ban religious covers and claim democracy and freedom at least if they wanna ban them
just put it as the fact for it stand for .. that is some of your socity's scums and filth will use it as mean to crime
and say that is your socities fault .. and the problem not within the veil it self
that's all am saying

Edited by Knight Of Shadows, 07 June 2012 - 07:50 PM.

by the name of Allah the Gracious the Merciful
Say, "I seek refuge in the Lord of daybreak From the evil of that which He created
And from the evil of darkness when it settles And from the evil of the blowers in knots
And from the evil of an envier when he envies"
truthful was Allah The Most High And Great


#29    Yamato

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 07:51 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 07 June 2012 - 06:58 PM, said:

You quoted my posts  .. When we quote someone's post,  shot in the dark but that usually means we are addressing their posts   lol
So then I addressed your posts?

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#30    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 08:00 PM

View PostYamato, on 07 June 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

So then I addressed your posts?

Post 6  --> http://www.unexplain...pic=228333&st=0      .. You  quote my post  making it lok like you are addressing me ...but you never address anything I posted, meaning the post content.. you rambled off in a tangent that was irrelevant to my post..  and you kept going.. I found it odd and  a bit  boring..  I will just skip them next time..  no offence.. I am more keen on addressing others who have actually addressed what I wrote and not what I haven't wrote..

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