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Stan Gooch & The Neanderthal Legacy


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#211    cormac mac airt

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 11:29 PM

View Postjmccr8, on 06 August 2012 - 10:39 PM, said:

Hi Puzzler,

   We may at present hold the view that they were barbaric,however most of what I am seeing does not show that they were creatures without calculation.They understood that they needed to branch out to other communities/groups in order to mate,this indicates that they understood that inbreeding would cause a negative impact on their chances of survival. They seem to have held some form of belief that they showed reverence to,it is possible that this species did adapt both socially and to a degree culturally.

  There may have been pockets of Neanderthals that were procuring Hs females by whatever means be it trade or raid in order to maintain or advance their species.We don't know how long of a time span this may have happened,if it was a brief time period we would expect that the effect of this may be fairly insignificant however if it was a situation that spanned over many generations the effect might have had more impact.

  Did each species whether Cro-magnum,Neanderthal,and Homo-sapiens have one language for each species or did the distances between groups evolve different languages within each of the species so that all of these species were multi-lingual?Or did they become multi-lingual through the process of inter-species inteaction?if Neanderthals were mating with Hs females then is it safe to assume that they became bi-lingual,and if they did this shows another area of adaptation?In hunter/gatherer cultures female talked while gathering in order to identify their positions,as well they would teach their offspring while attending to the daily tasks and duties.I can see a lot of planning and organizing occurring while the females progressed through these activities.Stories have always been a means of educating and amusement, they would probably be of great deeds and others may pertain to religious insights.

  If there were some settlements that had a higher percentage of Hs females than Neanderthal females and that this was a trend that carried on for several generations the cultural effect may have given rise to new languages,gods,social norms,as well as adapted physical features.Over a period of time we may find that there was little physical difference between the blended species and Hs, other than they may have been lighter skin/hair or larger in body size.As these hybrids intergrated with other Hs groups assimilation of religious ideologies and social structure would change both groups until they where wholly one group with a common identity.

Am not sure who your use of the word "we" entails, as more often than not that term is used by either fringe adherents or people with little to no current understanding of what is known about such distant times and peoples. Certainly the scientific community as a whole doesn't consider them "barbaric".

You're assuming that it was a planned idea, when it may have been as simple as "because they could". The problem here is that while it evidently happened, there's no way for us to know "why" it happened.

Cro-magnon isn't a species, but actually a pretty much defunct term used for the earliest Homo sapiens sapiens in Europe.

Why would it be safe to assume they were bi-lingual when it hasn't even been determined, and possibly can't be, that the children born of such a union lived with their Neanderthal relatives as opposed to their HSS ones?

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 06 August 2012 - 11:31 PM.

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#212    jmccr8

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 01:02 AM

Hi Cormac,

  I am not all that knowledgable about the subject so I would fall into that catagory of the ones that you so graciously provide for clarification,I hope that that removes the confusion for you.I suspect that would be the classification for most of us who are reading this thread.

  With respect to your second comment I am not sure as to what you are referring to, if it is in regards to taking Hs females for maintaining population it may have been a plan driven by instinct for self preservation,which could amount to no plan what so ever,just survive.

  How many cultures can you provide where a male takes a mate,impregnates her and goes off to live with a group of other males and leaves his mate and offspring to the people that they were originally found.If they were raised within a hunter/gatherer culture,then to abandon a component of their social structure does not seem credible if they are to survive.

  I used the term Cro-magnum as it has been used in several links provided throughout this thread, some provided by yourself so I thought to include them.Some of the articles that I have read in these pages have expressed the idea that mating of other hominid species may have had an impact on the development of Hs .

  I realize that some of the questions that I ask at this time may be beyond what is currently known{notice that I id not use we},but they are questions that come to mind while reading so they are contributed for discussion and not to vex the souls of the enlightened.Thanks
jmccr8


#213    Swede

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 01:04 AM

[

View Postjmccr8, on 06 August 2012 - 02:02 AM, said:

Hi Swede,

Thanks for the response,part of the reason that I am curios is in the area of whether or not they had a common deity/deities or if their regional distribution gave rise to different deities or rites? Has science observed any differences/similarities given the geographic dispersion of Neanderthals?

  I suspect that at one time there may have been a much larger population of Neanderthals and Hs,that have been destroyed and that for both species those events created stories of gods.There always have been major earth events that have obliterated life around them, are we observing these species as survivors,and do we understand what their social structure  would have been like if they had larger populations in some areas.

Hi jmccr8 -  Given the realities related to the research of the past, some aspects of your questions may be difficult to answer with any degree of authority. Let us begin with the latter section of your question.

Current understandings would tend to indicate that the maximum Eurasian Neandertal population would fall into the range of some 70,000 individuals. These populations were spread over a land area that can be conservatively estimated to have encompassed some 4,320,000 mile2. This would yield an average population density of ~ .00088 individuals/mile2. See below:

http://anthro.paloma.../mod_homo_2.htm

Based upon other research, it is rather likely that the early population of H.s.s. that initially migrated from Africa was notably smaller and were composed (as were the Neanderthals) of small family/extended family groups.

As to your queries regarding belief systems, we would promptly encounter quite a number of difficulties. Amongst these would be:

1) Given the time span and incorporated preservational aspects of the period involved, the accurate determination/interpretation of belief systems becomes quite problematic.

2) If one were to utilize much more contemporary models, the diversity of belief systems, on even a rather microscopic scale, can be quite diverse.

3) It would be highly presumptive to speculate that either early H.s.n. (?) or H.s.s. had any form of "unified" belief system.

Apologies for the brief reply. Time constraints. Will be happy to elaborate if desired.

.


#214    docyabut2

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 01:04 AM

They way I looked at it there is no such thing as speice. Homo sapian came from all life on the planet, as in all life, there were just many different lines.We`ve  always had a little Neanderthal  DNA.but they did go extint and the only way any life goes extint the off spring dies off.

Edited by docyabut2, 07 August 2012 - 01:09 AM.


#215    cormac mac airt

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 02:34 AM

View Postjmccr8, on 07 August 2012 - 01:02 AM, said:

Hi Cormac,

  I am not all that knowledgable about the subject so I would fall into that catagory of the ones that you so graciously provide for clarification,I hope that that removes the confusion for you.I suspect that would be the classification for most of us who are reading this thread.

  With respect to your second comment I am not sure as to what you are referring to, if it is in regards to taking Hs females for maintaining population it may have been a plan driven by instinct for self preservation,which could amount to no plan what so ever,just survive.

  How many cultures can you provide where a male takes a mate,impregnates her and goes off to live with a group of other males and leaves his mate and offspring to the people that they were originally found.If they were raised within a hunter/gatherer culture,then to abandon a component of their social structure does not seem credible if they are to survive.

  I used the term Cro-magnum as it has been used in several links provided throughout this thread, some provided by yourself so I thought to include them.Some of the articles that I have read in these pages have expressed the idea that mating of other hominid species may have had an impact on the development of Hs.

  I realize that some of the questions that I ask at this time may be beyond what is currently known{notice that I id not use we},but they are questions that come to mind while reading so they are contributed for discussion and not to vex the souls of the enlightened.Thanks
jmccr8

Hopefully you're of the latter group, as the former (fringe) like to represent our knowledge of ancient humans as if they were barbarians in order to show themselves as having special knowledge to the contrary. It only makes the former group look more foolish.

That's just it, "no plan whatsoever" is not a plan. Survival is an ingrained instinct IMO.

Considering that the populations of both Neanderthals as well as modern humans (HSS) are evidenced as having been small, and scattered over an immense territory, your argument as to culture is moot. We're not talking about groups of 10's or 100's of thousands of people living together in one specific culture. We're talking of several dozen to possibly a few hundred people, at most, living together. Too few a population and they wouldn't survive while too many and they couldn't be as actively mobile as evidenced. And since the gestation period of humans obviously isn't overnight and both groups were mobile, there's no reason to think that Neanderthals necessarily stuck around, nor that they would have cared for any offspring that weren't fully Neanderthal.

Just as long as you realize Cro-magnon is not a species designation. And the way you wrote it amounts to "a species of ourselves mated with ourselves". Of course modern humans mated with modern humans.

Mating with other species of humans has had an impact.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#216    jmccr8

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 04:29 AM

Hi Cormac,

  I am just a guy who spends some spare time to come here follow arguments and read links to expand myself in some way.This area of discussion does not seem to be very hot subjects like aliens,through the links that posters here contribute,I am better able to understand a part of our history. I understand that we can make some calculation as to their population though certain given periods of time given available data.However when I read an article like this,300mya tropical forest found in a coal mine in China,and I consider the many events that have ensued since then I am left wondering what percentage of the data survived.

  I am not suggesting advanced metropolitan cultures,I am questioning if groups of settlements might have been within  half-day/day walk and a runner or series of could create a network of sorts,after all they were family and extended family. I suspect that as you moved closer to their point of origin the population might have been denser as they would be larger and closer together.These paths that lead to that point of origin would probably follow waterways and pose certain risk depending on location.Oops this is the link for the forest
'Chinese Pompeii': 300m-year-old forest preserved by volcanic ash found in Wuda | Mail Online

  I find it interesting that both Neanderthals and Hs practiced head-binding and used ochre,why would two separate species find a significance in this?It would also display a sense of self awareness,as well as some form of social structure,which is dependent on some form of religious practice.As we move away from point of origin there may have been new languages/religious ideologies that evolved.We are not talking about complex societies so we are able to identify who,what,where,when,we may see certain commonalities within these groups that might give some insight as to their way of life.

  I wouldn't consider myself as fringe,I do look at what science gives of the interpretation of the available facts and accept it as such.I also realize that this knowledge is fluid and will change as we find more data to add to what is known.As always Thanks Cormac and Swede
jmccr8


#217    cormac mac airt

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 05:00 AM

Quote

I am not suggesting advanced metropolitan cultures, I am questioning if groups of settlements might have been within half-day/day walk and a runner or series of could create a network of sorts, after all they were family and extended family.

The assumption you're making here though, from what I can see, is that Neanderthals would have seen it that way. And just based on the fact that we modern humans, in many ways and many parts of the world, can't seem to accept people who are different from us for one reason or another and that Neanderthals were likely very similar to us then it stands to reason that they'd be no different.

There's also the problem of the women impregnated by Neanderthal men only giving birth to girls (or sterile males, if males ever survived). Neither situation would be good for them as the men were responsible for hunting. A reduced number of men would equal a reduced chance for survival.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#218    jmccr8

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 09:34 AM

Hello Cormac,

  I am not suggesting that Neanderthals and Hs. are identical,however based on the facts that they created tools used fire,cooked food,created art,paid respect for the dead and cared for the afflicted does tend to lead me to believe that they had something going on there that that merits considering them as an evolved species.The fact that their mating with Hs.females was counter productive for their species may have played a part in their demise.Sterile males would still grow into able bodied and productive adults,who still need to eat so I am quite sure that they would still be proficient hunters.

  Unless they had some understanding of biology they may not understand why they are no-longer producing males able to reproduce,and continue mating with Hs.females.I realize that I can only speculate,and that is part of my learning process.jmccr8


#219    lightly

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 11:52 AM

View Postjmccr8, on 07 August 2012 - 04:29 AM, said:

I find it interesting that both Neanderthals and Hs practiced head-binding and used ochre
jmccr8


Hi Jmccr8,     Me too! ...  and it appears as if both made cave paintings?

Edited by lightly, 07 August 2012 - 11:52 AM.

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#220    docyabut2

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 12:36 PM

The Neanderthals were our consins out of Africa, why would there be to much difference?


#221    jmccr8

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 03:55 PM

Hi Lightly,

  Yes they did make cave paintings,and it is because of these expressions of self awareness that has lead me to wonder if they might have been something more than  group of wandering primates with no purpose.It makes me wonder if I have been raised with a species-centric attitude that has clouded my understanding of their significance in our past.
jmccr8


#222    Dragonwind

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 05:28 AM

View Postjmccr8, on 07 August 2012 - 03:55 PM, said:

Hi Lightly,

  Yes they did make cave paintings,and it is because of these expressions of self awareness that has lead me to wonder if they might have been something more than  group of wandering primates with no purpose.It makes me wonder if I have been raised with a species-centric attitude that has clouded my understanding of their significance in our past.
jmccr8
It hasn't been confirmed they made cave paintings - it has been suggested and it would not be a suprise if they did. Both Neanderthal and early Hss moved into the niche cold climates of eurasia that forced selection pressures on them including larger capacity for planning (organisation of hunting, storing food for winter, creating/finding shelter etc) i.e. larger brain, an environment with high energy mega fauna meat to fuel such a large brain, resistence to new adversities such as cold and disease. A hominid cannot be stupid and survive in ice age or cold climate eurasia. Even early heidelbergensis in europe would more than likely be very formiddible. In many other animal species moving into a new niche environment selects adaptive advantages including intelligence such as the whales and dolphins which were once land mammals moving into the oceans.


#223    Dragonwind

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 05:30 AM

View Postjmccr8, on 07 August 2012 - 04:29 AM, said:

I find it interesting that both Neanderthals and Hs practiced head-binding
I have not seen evidence Neanderthals practices head binding. Can you provide a link?


#224    Dragonwind

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 05:36 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 05 August 2012 - 06:37 AM, said:

. Seems a bit odd everyone would head into Asia though, from Africa, after this massive eruption in Asia.
Maybe it was the perfect opportunity. Many species flourish or gain an advantage after disasters or environments are disturbed. Plus it's the easy coastal route as a matter of course. Humans are far more likely to follow waterways and coasts then trek straight up into forbidding mountain ranges (ie Caucaus, Zagros, euro spline, himilaya Kush interconnected jumble). Also the Toba eruption's fallout was carried west covering an oval shaped area that extended over southern India, middle east and africa. There is also some evidence for a comet/meteor strike in Iraq around this period judged by a significant crater seen on satelite imagery and geologic dating.


#225    jmccr8

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 01:51 AM

Hello Dragonwind,

  Here are a couple of links regarding headbinding.

Artificial Cranial Modification: Head Shaping

Artificial cranial deformation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I lost another link that I was going to add and somehow lost it,I will look for it and add it later.I am also adding a couple of links for Neanderthal art.

BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Neanderthal 'face' found in Loire

With Science, New Portrait of the Cave Artist - NYTimes.com

Neandertals and Art

La Ferrassie Cave, Neanderthal Cupule Art: Description, History, Date: Middle Paleolithic Petroglyphs
  I realize that a couple of these links are from wiki,but I thought that they were fine so I added them,I hope that these will be of some use to you.
jmccr8





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