4029 replies to this topic

[Abramelin]

(To Van Gorp:)

LOL, only yesterday I changed the banner of my OLB blog:

http://oeralinda.blogspot.nl/

Look at the birds in the sky...... must be swans, right?


.

Edited by Abramelin, 06 October 2012 - 09:31 AM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 06 October 2012 - 09:24 AM, said:

Maybe more in Summer...

During the whole summer the sun had been hid behind the clouds, as if unwilling to look upon the earth. There was perpetual calm, and the damp mist hung like a wet sail over the houses and the marshes. The air was heavy and oppressive, and in men’s hearts was neither joy nor cheerfulness. In the midst of this stillness the earth began to tremble as if she was dying.

And when does the summer end? At the autumnal equinox.

"During the whole summer..." and then etc.

[The Mule]

OK...without reading the entire 500 page thread, can someone give me a brief synopsis of where you're at here? You guys are translating OLB yourselves? Hoax or genuine anti-deluvian history?

[Abramelin]

The Mule, on 06 October 2012 - 02:01 PM, said:

OK...without reading the entire 500 page thread, can someone give me a brief synopsis of where you're at here? You guys are translating OLB yourselves? Hoax or genuine anti-deluvian history?

It's like 870 pages.

A brief synopsis, lol: I once did that for the Doggerland thread and wrote some 30 lines as summary of all I had brought up.

And that thread was only 50+ pages long....

About the translating: that has been done already a long time ago, but we have all discovered errors in those translations.

That's not - I think - because we are geniuses, but because we use online information and online copies of ancient (Dutch) books, books and Old Frisian dictionaries that are hard to get in a library or a bookshop.

The latest published translation plus transliteration was done by Goffe Jensma, and even he left errors or made new ones.

Hoax or genuine? That depends whom you ask. I'd say fabrication.

[Abramelin]

To give you an idea what I think - and nothing more than that, no theory, no ultimate conclusion - you should read this post from almost a year ago:

http://www.unexplain...90#entry4123896

[The Mule]

Abramelin, on 06 October 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:

It's like 870 pages.

A brief synopsis, lol: I once did that for the Doggerland thread and wrote some 30 lines as summary of all I had brought up.

And that thread was only 50+ pages long....

About the translating: that has been done already a long time ago, but we have all discovered errors in those translations.

That's not - I think - because we are geniuses, but because we use online information and online copies of ancient (Dutch) books, books and Old Frisian dictionaries that are hard to get in a library or a bookshop.

The latest published translation plus transliteration was done by Goffe Jensma, and even he left errors or made new ones.

Hoax or genuine? That depends whom you ask. I'd say fabrication.

thanks Abe!

[The Puzzler]

The Mule, on 06 October 2012 - 02:01 PM, said:

OK...without reading the entire 500 page thread, can someone give me a brief synopsis of where you're at here? You guys are translating OLB yourselves? Hoax or genuine anti-deluvian history?

What's interesting to me is the historical story written in the OLB and whether it could be true - that some North European peoples, who saw themselves as children of Frya, actually were in Rome, Greece, Phoenicia and whether Nyhellenia is Athena. The mention of a huge cataclysm that lasted 3 years and the mention of the language as being Gods language that indicates a pure language that others might have come from. I like to translate words to see if the Frisian language could be the base for many other words, which I think it does show, maybe even the PIE homeland.
It appears very realistic because of the known ways of the Frisians tend to agree with what's being said and it's a reasonable explanation of how the area was taken over by religion from the East as well as how Athena came to be in Greece and other mentions of ancient Bronze-Iron Age events.

We are at whatever comes from it and have discussed numerous things numerous times - it's all good, any opinion or idea is welcome here imo. I personally like to think the OLB is true, there are many points though that have me thinking otherwise, which keeps me going in the hunt for the elusive truth...

One hundred and one years after the submersion of Aldland a people came out of the East. That people was driven by another. Behind us, in Twiskland (Germany), they fell into disputes, divided into two parties, and each went its own way. Of the one no account has come to us, but the other came in the back of our Schoonland, which was thinly inhabited, particularly the upper part. Therefore they were able to take possession of it without contest, and as they did no other harm, we would not make war about it. Now that we have learned to know them, we will describe their customs, and after that how matters went between us. They were not wild people, like most of Finda’s race; but, like the Egyptians, they have priests and also statues in their churches. The priests are the only rulers; they call themselves Magyars, and their headman Magy. He is high priest and king in one. The rest of the people are of no account, and in subjection to them. This people have not even a name; but we call them Finns, because although all the festivals are melancholy and bloody, they are so formal that we are inferior to them in that respect. But still they are not to be envied, because they are slaves to their priests, and still more to their creeds. They believe that evil spirits abound everywhere, and enter into men and beasts, but of Wr-alda’s spirit they know nothing. They have weapons of stone, the Magyars of copper. The Magyars affirm that they can exorcise and recall the evil spirits, and this frightens the people, so that you never see a cheerful face. When they were well established, the Magyars sought our friendship, they praised our language and customs, our cattle and iron weapons, which they would willingly have exchanged for their gold and silver ornaments, and they always kept their people within their own boundaries, and that outwitted our watchfulness. http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#be

Edited by The Puzzler, 06 October 2012 - 03:11 PM.

[The Mule]

The Puzzler, on 06 October 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

What's interesting is the story written in the OLB itself and whether it could be true - that some North European peoples, who saw themselves as children of Frya, actually were in Rome, Greece, Phoenicia and whether Nyhellenia is Athena. The mention of a huge cataclysm that lasted 3 years and the mention of the language as being Gods language, and indicates a pure language that others might have come from.
It appears very realistic because of the known ways of the Frisians tend to agree with what's being said and it's a reasonable explantion of how the area was taken over by religion as well as how Athena came to be in Greece and other mentions of ancient Bronze-Iron Age events.

We are at whatever comes from it and have discussed numerous things numerous times - it's all good, any opinion or idea is welcome here imo. I personally like to think the OLB is true, there are many points though that have me thinking otherwise, which keeps me going in the hunt for the elusive truth...

One hundred and one years after the submersion of Aldland a people came out of the East. That people was driven by another. Behind us, in Twiskland (Germany), they fell into disputes, divided into two parties, and each went its own way. Of the one no account has come to us, but the other came in the back of our Schoonland, which was thinly inhabited, particularly the upper part. Therefore they were able to take possession of it without contest, and as they did no other harm, we would not make war about it. Now that we have learned to know them, we will describe their customs, and after that how matters went between us. They were not wild people, like most of Finda’s race; but, like the Egyptians, they have priests and also statues in their churches. The priests are the only rulers; they call themselves Magyars, and their headman Magy. He is high priest and king in one. The rest of the people are of no account, and in subjection to them. This people have not even a name; but we call them Finns, because although all the festivals are melancholy and bloody, they are so formal that we are inferior to them in that respect. But still they are not to be envied, because they are slaves to their priests, and still more to their creeds. They believe that evil spirits abound everywhere, and enter into men and beasts, but of Wr-alda’s spirit they know nothing. They have weapons of stone, the Magyars of copper. The Magyars affirm that they can exorcise and recall the evil spirits, and this frightens the people, so that you never see a cheerful face. When they were well established, the Magyars sought our friendship, they praised our language and customs, our cattle and iron weapons, which they would willingly have exchanged for their gold and silver ornaments, and they always kept their people within their own boundaries, and that outwitted our watchfulness. http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#be

and thank you, too! I guess I'll just have to start reading the book right from there.

[Abramelin]

Now, if you want to know more about a certain name, word, or expression, and you (of course) don't want to wander through 870 pages, then do this (the search function here doesn't work for archived threads):

Enter this in Google:

"keyword" "archived" "oera linda" "unexplained mysteries"

Don't forget the quotation marks.

An example with "atland":

https://www.google.n...iw=1010&bih=609

And that results in only 20 pages, lol.

Btw, I assume you know how to search in an active thread.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 06 October 2012 - 03:27 PM.

[Van Gorp]

Abramelin, on 06 October 2012 - 09:28 AM, said:

(To Van Gorp:)

LOL, only yesterday I changed the banner of my OLB blog:

http://oeralinda.blogspot.nl/

Look at the birds in the sky...... must be swans, right?


.

:-) Nice Co-incident Abe.

[Van Gorp]

The Puzzler, on 06 October 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

What's interesting to me is the historical story written in the OLB and whether it could be true - that some North European peoples, who saw themselves as children of Frya, actually were in Rome, Greece, Phoenicia and whether Nyhellenia is Athena. The mention of a huge cataclysm that lasted 3 years and the mention of the language as being Gods language that indicates a pure language that others might have come from. I like to translate words to see if the Frisian language could be the base for many other words, which I think it does show, maybe even the PIE homeland.
It appears very realistic because of the known ways of the Frisians tend to agree with what's being said and it's a reasonable explanation of how the area was taken over by religion from the East as well as how Athena came to be in Greece and other mentions of ancient Bronze-Iron Age events.

We are at whatever comes from it and have discussed numerous things numerous times - it's all good, any opinion or idea is welcome here imo. I personally like to think the OLB is true, there are many points though that have me thinking otherwise, which keeps me going in the hunt for the elusive truth...

One hundred and one years after the submersion of Aldland a people came out of the East. That people was driven by another. Behind us, in Twiskland (Germany), they fell into disputes, divided into two parties, and each went its own way. Of the one no account has come to us, but the other came in the back of our Schoonland, which was thinly inhabited, particularly the upper part. Therefore they were able to take possession of it without contest, and as they did no other harm, we would not make war about it. Now that we have learned to know them, we will describe their customs, and after that how matters went between us. They were not wild people, like most of Finda’s race; but, like the Egyptians, they have priests and also statues in their churches. The priests are the only rulers; they call themselves Magyars, and their headman Magy. He is high priest and king in one. The rest of the people are of no account, and in subjection to them. This people have not even a name; but we call them Finns, because although all the festivals are melancholy and bloody, they are so formal that we are inferior to them in that respect. But still they are not to be envied, because they are slaves to their priests, and still more to their creeds. They believe that evil spirits abound everywhere, and enter into men and beasts, but of Wr-alda’s spirit they know nothing. They have weapons of stone, the Magyars of copper. The Magyars affirm that they can exorcise and recall the evil spirits, and this frightens the people, so that you never see a cheerful face. When they were well established, the Magyars sought our friendship, they praised our language and customs, our cattle and iron weapons, which they would willingly have exchanged for their gold and silver ornaments, and they always kept their people within their own boundaries, and that outwitted our watchfulness. http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#be

And for me personally, I like to invest the seemingly sharing point of view in the OLB story as with 16th-17th century linguists/historians who claim basically the same story as told in OLB:

"There is a history of the Diets speaking peoples that is not well understood by the commonly told (basically Catholic) history in schoolbooks.  It describes an origine of a common and widespread language/culture that predates Greek/Latin and in fact formed the basis for such languages and their history.  Simply put: the Romans and Greek did not influence as much the culture in the low lands, the people from these low lands went different sides of the world (Baltic, America, Med Sea, Turkey, ...) and left their marks there."

This view contradicts a bit the most common 'modern' insights on the connection between Roman/Greek mythology and their basis in Western European culture.
Whether OLB is being believed to be an 'authentic' family chronicle or not, is for me not that much an issue.

[Abramelin]

Van Gorp, on 06 October 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

And for me personally, I like to invest the seemingly sharing point of view in the OLB story as with 16th-17th century linguists/historians who claim basically the same story as told in OLB:

"There is a history of the Diets speaking peoples that is not well understood by the commonly told (basically Catholic) history in schoolbooks.  It describes an origine of a common and widespread language/culture that predates Greek/Latin and in fact formed the basis for such languages and their history.  Simply put: the Romans and Greek did not influence as much the culture in the low lands, the people from these low lands went different sides of the world (Baltic, America, Med Sea, Turkey, ...) and left their marks there."

This view contradicts a bit the most common 'modern' insights on the connection between Roman/Greek mythology and their basis in Western European culture.
Whether OLB is being believed to be an 'authentic' family chronicle or not, is for me not that much an issue.

It is always a possibility, but up to know we only have archeological proof of people from the Med (Phoenicians, Minoans, Romans) visiting northern parts of Europe.

And it's a bit of a stretch to think that all ancient Latin, Greek and Levantian myths and languages were picked up by sailors visiting nothern countries and then changed beyond recognition when they were back home again. A story, a legend, words, and so on, yes, but that appears to be about it.

Now, if we found proof of Nordics settling en masse in the Med and Levant many thousands of years ago (like an OLB suggests), then things will change. Up to that moment it is nothing but an entertaining thought.

[Van Gorp]

Abramelin, on 06 October 2012 - 06:11 PM, said:

It is always a possibility, but up to know we only have archeological proof of people from the Med (Phoenicians, Minoans, Romans) visiting northern parts of Europe.

And it's a bit of a stretch to think that all ancient Latin, Greek and Levantian myths and languages were picked up by sailors visiting nothern countries and then changed beyond recognition when they were back home again. A story, a legend, words, and so on, yes, but that appears to be about it.

Now, if we found proof of Nordics settling en masse in the Med and Levant many thousands of years ago (like an OLB suggests), then things will change. Up to that moment it is nothing but an entertaining thought.

All understandable doubts Abe, in that i can follow.  Really do.

For that I just try to find common ground/relations for this seemingly unfundamented view on history.  At the moment, whether it is really transpired like that or not: intriguing for me to look at, is the relation between for instance Becanus, Mylius, Stevin, Schriek, … and OLB-like histroy.  Just for the sport.

And then there seems to be a whole lot, plus the growing scepticism even within modern scholarship about the entrance of Greeck and Latin mythology into our culture.  From the time books could be printed and copied :-) We all know who took the lead there.  Knowing that we also know the story of his-story .  Greek myths are so unlogical in it’s tale, that it’s hard to accept that a true history can be made that un-believable by recounting (as you told) except if by some kind of authority it has been used to spray mist about historical events on purpose.  And that’s what is my personal believe concerning the myths (whats in a name).

[Otharus]

Van Gorp, on 06 October 2012 - 09:20 AM, said:

Some connections with Leda, Nobility, Black/White view and Swan metafor in Frisian/Sea faring history and on people's behaviour.

Nice story VG, who wrote it?



A big Zwaan family in North Holland descends from Cornelia Kofman-Reuvers (1818-1878), who owned the OLB manuscript till 1848, until her cousin Cornelis Over de Linden (1811-1874) became the owner (according to his account).

See abridged genealogy below (source).

<<owners OLB till 1820?>>
(II-3) Andries Jansz OVER DE LINDEN (1759-1820)
married Enkhuizen 1782
Iefje SCHOLS (1762-1820)
child:
6) Aafje OVER DE LINDEN (1798) ==>> see (III-7)

============

<<owners OLB till 1848?>>
(III-7) Aafje OVER DE LINDEN (1798-1849)
married (1st) Enkhuizen 1821
Hendrik REUVERS (1796-1845);
married (2nd) Enkhuizen 1846
Koop Simonsz. MEIJLOF (ca.1804 - ca.1875)
(lived in house of her parents)

child:
1) Cornelia/ Kee REUVERS (1818) ==>> see (IV-15)

============

<<owners OLB till 1848?>>
(IV-15) Cornelia/ Kee REUVERS (1818-1878)
married Enkhuizen 1838
Rijkent KOFMAN (1820-1861)
(lived in house of her parents)

child:
1) Trijntje KOFMAN (1839) ==>> see (V-24)

Cornelia Kofman-Reuvers; with granddaughters Cornelia and Teetje Zwaan (?)

============

(V-24) Trijntje KOFMAN (1839-1912)
married 1858 Andijk to:
Andries ZWAAN (1830-1909)
children, born Enkhuizen:
1) Hendrik ZWAAN (1859-1919)
2) Rijkent ZWAAN (1860-1954)
3) Klaas ZWAAN (1862-1922)
4) Cornelia ZWAAN (1863-1924)
5) Teetje ZWAAN (1865-1919)
6) Aafje ZWAAN (1867-1941)
7) Andries ZWAAN (1870-1945)
8) Jacob ZWAAN (1873-1937)
9) Roelof ZWAAN (1875-?)
10) Piet ZWAAN (1877-1935)
11) Willem ZWAAN (1882-?)

Edited by Otharus, 07 October 2012 - 07:23 AM.

[Otharus]

The OLB word "OD" has been discussed several times here, but thus far the following definition (which I think is the best) was not given. Source: Van Dale online dictionary - professional (English -> Dutch).

od  [ɒd, (Am.) ɑd] (telbaar zelfstandig naamwoord) (verouderd)
1.od (eertijds hypothetisch vooropgestelde natuurkracht ter verklaring van allerlei natuurverschijnselen)

translation:

formerly hypothetically postulated elementary force of nature, explaining miscellaneous natural phenomena

This would make the fragment (MS page 6) much better understandable:



Dutch:
Wralda's od (?) trad tot hen binnen.
En nu baarden zij elk twaalf zonen en twaalf dochters

English:
Wralda's od (?) came into them.
And now they each bore twelve sons and twelve daughters