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Ball lightning is all in the mind, say


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#1    Still Waters

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 02:30 PM

www.theregister.co.uk said:

Physicists in Austria say they have solved the conundrum of "ball lightning", mysterious glowing spherical apparitions which baffled boffins have struggled to explain for centuries.

According to Josef Peer and Alexander Kendl of the University of Innsbruck, there is in fact no such thing as ball lightning in reality.Rather, powerful magnetic fields created by ordinary lightning affect the brains of humans nearby so that they see things which aren't there.

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#2    karl 12

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Posted 19 May 2010 - 02:41 PM

StillWaters, interesting thread - I'm having trouble accepting the explanation as, in some ball lightning accounts, physical trace evidence is left behind and/or there are reports of strange odours.

There's some intriguing testimony in the thread below from an Arthur C Clarke documentary and, although I do admire the scientists who actualy investigate this phenomenon, I still think there are a lot of unanswered questions.


Ball lightning and UFOs


Cheers.


#3    Larving

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 11:49 AM

A bit of a longshot, but still as good as any other theory out there. (And waaaayy better than a lot)


#4    Tiggs

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 12:00 PM

View PostLarving, on 20 May 2010 - 11:49 AM, said:

A bit of a longshot, but still as good as any other theory out there. (And waaaayy better than a lot)
If it's all in the mind...why are there photo's of it?


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#5    karl 12

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 12:02 PM

View PostLarving, on 20 May 2010 - 11:49 AM, said:

A bit of a longshot, but still as good as any other theory out there. (And waaaayy better than a lot)


Hi Larving, I can't find the link but the claims that 'electromagnetic effects causes hallucinations and false memory' were also reported in this U.K. Ministry of Defense UFO Executive summary report but they were later deemed invalid when it was discovered that the researcher had fabricated the data.


UAP in the UK Air Defence Region: Executive Summary


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#6    Larving

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 01:45 PM

View PostTiggs, on 20 May 2010 - 12:00 PM, said:

If it's all in the mind...why are there photo's of it?
In a hypothetical "if" those images would then obviously be fake.
Of whether or not that's the case, I have no clue.


Thank you for the link Karl 12. Added it to favourites and will try to read through it later. Since there's quite a lot to read.  :lol:


#7    nycblman

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 02:13 PM

Google ball lightning and you will find many photos and videos of it. One lab even posted a video of having reproduced ball lightning in a lab, although with that one I have to say, if they don't understand what causes it, how can they know they specifically recreated what people have been seeing/recording?

Anyways, given the recorded evidence, I don't believe this study. I don't even see where they reproduced this phenomenon in a lab. Can environmental factors cause hallucinations? Yes! Does it explain this away? Not in my opinion given what I've seen recorded on still- and video-cameras.


#8    karl 12

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 02:58 PM

View PostLarving, on 20 May 2010 - 01:45 PM, said:

Thank you for the link Karl 12. Added it to favourites and will try to read through it later. Since there's quite a lot to read.  :lol:

Larving,no probs matey -there's also a good interview about unidentified aerial phenomena here if you're interested in that sort of thing (worth saving for a rainy day anyway :) ).

Here are those interviews from the Arthur C Clarke documentary mentioned above - it also shows some interesting lab footage in the second vid.



Quote

Interviews at 7:25




Followed on here:



Cheers.

Edited by karl 12, 20 May 2010 - 03:00 PM.


#9    Mbyte

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 04:43 PM

Thats what skeptics athiests and egotistic scientists say when they can't explain something. Your imagining it.

"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance."

#10    JohnPeniel

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 05:04 PM

What I would like to know is "What God ever gave these little scientists the authority to make any official claims as to what is real and what is not?". Has it ever occurred to many of you that these 'scientists' are just kids. 90%+ of them are still in the midst of schooling that is be paid for by rich parents or "Government" grants. RARELY will you ever find one that is even beyond his or her 30s with any chance to have experienced life yet in order to be in any position to give any credible decision on what's real or not. These scientists are no different that any other KID that just thinks he or she knows everything about life before they even had a chance to live one for themselves.

As an example... look at who is running your Hadron Collider that has the potential to destroy our entire planet...



#11    embarrasment

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 06:17 PM

View PostJohnPeniel, on 20 May 2010 - 05:04 PM, said:

What I would like to know is "What God ever gave these little scientists the authority to make any official claims as to what is real and what is not?". Has it ever occurred to many of you that these 'scientists' are just kids. 90%+ of them are still in the midst of schooling that is be paid for by rich parents or "Government" grants. RARELY will you ever find one that is even beyond his or her 30s with any chance to have experienced life yet in order to be in any position to give any credible decision on what's real or not. These scientists are no different that any other KID that just thinks he or she knows everything about life before they even had a chance to live one for themselves.

As an example... look at who is running your Hadron Collider that has the potential to destroy our entire planet...


You are right on many points.  Publish or perish academic culture forces people to choose between success or dishonesty.  Journals don't publish negative results.  So you spent $250,000 dollars researching how magnetic fields create hallucinations?  Reporting that they don't will mean no more funding, and no chance to get your article in the journal, which means no Ph.d,tenure,job, ...


#12    Drj312

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 06:21 PM

View PostJohnPeniel, on 20 May 2010 - 05:04 PM, said:

What I would like to know is "What God ever gave these little scientists the authority to make any official claims as to what is real and what is not?". Has it ever occurred to many of you that these 'scientists' are just kids. 90%+ of them are still in the midst of schooling that is be paid for by rich parents or "Government" grants. RARELY will you ever find one that is even beyond his or her 30s with any chance to have experienced life yet in order to be in any position to give any credible decision on what's real or not. These scientists are no different that any other KID that just thinks he or she knows everything about life before they even had a chance to live one for themselves.

As an example... look at who is running your Hadron Collider that has the potential to destroy our entire planet...

everything you just said is wrong


#13    Larving

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 06:35 PM

View PostMbyte, on 20 May 2010 - 04:43 PM, said:

Thats what skeptics athiests and egotistic scientists say when they can't explain something. Your imagining it.
When "egotistic scientists" actually bring scientific backing to support their claims, it's worth listening to.

View PostJohnPeniel, on 20 May 2010 - 05:04 PM, said:

What I would like to know is "What God ever gave these little scientists the authority to make any official claims as to what is real and what is not?".
Having actually studied withing a specific field of science generally does give you some authority to talk about it. With good reason.

Besides, saying these scientists are making claims as of "what is real and what is not" is an incredible blanketing statement considering they are not claiming that ball lightning "isn't real" but that it's a real phenomenon which they have concluded, through their research, is most likely caused by magnetic fields creating phosphenes.

View PostJohnPeniel, on 20 May 2010 - 05:04 PM, said:

Has it ever occurred to many of you that these 'scientists' are just kids. 90%+ of them are still in the midst of schooling that is be paid for by rich parents or "Government" grants. RARELY will you ever find one that is even beyond his or her 30s with any chance to have experienced life yet in order to be in any position to give any credible decision on what's real or not. These scientists are no different that any other KID that just thinks he or she knows everything about life before they even had a chance to live one for themselves.

As an example... look at who is running your Hadron Collider that has the potential to destroy our entire planet...
The director general for CERN, the organization responsible for the Hadron Collider, is Rolf-Dieter Heuer, he is a particle physicist and is turning 62 in a few days, I believe. And while I agree that you do need experience to be able to speak about "life" with any form of authority. These people aren't discussing life, they are discussing physics. Something that "growing old" won't teach you.

And the Hadron Collider will not destroy our planet, neither can it.

(When did scientists and education in general get such a bad reputation?)


#14    character

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 07:58 PM

View PostMbyte, on 20 May 2010 - 04:43 PM, said:

Thats what skeptics athiests and egotistic scientists say when they can't explain something. Your imagining it.

As opposed to what religious and uneducated people say - "its magic" ? (yes magic includes god).

View PostJohnPeniel, on 20 May 2010 - 05:04 PM, said:

What I would like to know is "What God ever gave these little scientists the authority to make any official claims as to what is real and what is not?". Has it ever occurred to many of you that these 'scientists' are just kids. 90%+ of them are still in the midst of schooling that is be paid for by rich parents or "Government" grants. RARELY will you ever find one that is even beyond his or her 30s with any chance to have experienced life yet in order to be in any position to give any credible decision on what's real or not. These scientists are no different that any other KID that just thinks he or she knows everything about life before they even had a chance to live one for themselves.

As an example... look at who is running your Hadron Collider that has the potential to destroy our entire planet...


Wow, i can only assume your some 50+ year old person that has a complex about young people being smarter than you. Since for one, a person in his/her 30s or even 20s isnt a kid by most definitions, secondly a 22 year old that finished university will 99% of the time be a bigger authority on any scientific subject then any "non-kid" that isnt an expert on the subject(a real expert, not some self proclaimed know-it-all). And lastly, a person living an active life and/or reading the right things will always be a bigger authority on "life" (not that this blank statement describes anything in particular) that some redneck yokel, regardless of age.


As for the topic, i find it hard to believe the magnetic fields would be so strong as to affect the mind, and in such a specific and consistent way, especially when nothing else (i.e. electronics) arent affected. And then theres all the visual evidence...

"the mysteries of the universe are revealed when you break stuff

#15    Drj312

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Posted 20 May 2010 - 08:13 PM

View Postcharacter, on 20 May 2010 - 07:58 PM, said:

As opposed to what religious and uneducated people say - "its magic" ? (yes magic includes god).



Wow, i can only assume your some 50+ year old person that has a complex about young people being smarter than you. Since for one, a person in his/her 30s or even 20s isnt a kid by most definitions, secondly a 22 year old that finished university will 99% of the time be a bigger authority on any scientific subject then any "non-kid" that isnt an expert on the subject(a real expert, not some self proclaimed know-it-all). And lastly, a person living an active life and/or reading the right things will always be a bigger authority on "life" (not that this blank statement describes anything in particular) that some redneck yokel, regardless of age.


As for the topic, i find it hard to believe the magnetic fields would be so strong as to affect the mind, and in such a specific and consistent way, especially when nothing else (i.e. electronics) arent affected. And then theres all the visual evidence...
the magnetic fields do not have to be strong. its not the magnetic fields that are inducing the hallucinations, its the change in magnetic field which induces a current in the brain's neurons, resulting in an hallucination





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