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UFOs from Earth


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#16    Antilles

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 10:55 AM

A question.

The astronauts on route to the Moon on different missions reported strange anomalies.

This is in the 60's.

Ideas?


#17    Sweetpumper

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:00 PM

View Postresearch, on 15 November 2012 - 04:40 AM, said:

As a serious UFO researcher, only one thing is clear: UFOs are man-made aircraft. That's the answer.

Well, guess we can shut down this section of the website then.

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#18    zoser

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:28 PM

View Postresearch, on 15 November 2012 - 04:40 AM, said:

As a serious UFO researcher, only one thing is clear: UFOs are man-made aircraft. That's the answer.

From Keyhoe, to the nonsense written by Hynek to the Condon Report, and let me throw in the science-fantasy writers John Keel and Jacques Vallee. The last two at least wrote interesting prose but with zero evidence.

From the official start of the UFO issue in 1947, it was made clear that such aircraft could be built with 1947 technology. That according to T-3 Engineering at Wright Field and interrogation reports in existence at the time. Scientists working on these craft in the US had to keep it all secret. There could be no official investigation. Not by scientists. Individuals were regularly ridiculed. Just look up the CERVIS-MERINT document for reporting Vital Intelligence Sightings. The report had to be made immediately and it includes a drawing of what cannot be mistaken for anything else - a flying saucer. Their primary purpose? Totally covert aerial reconnaissance. Defense contractors need to build things so the U-2 and then the SR-71 were trotted out as the best we could do. The goal is to always deceive the enemy, to create doubt.

So the military and scientists, along with public officials, have been laughing this all off for decades. Why? The saucers were to be our secret weapon during the Cold War. Sure, the optics could be replaced with the same warhead used on the Atomic Cannon in 1953. No one knew how many saucers were real and making them hoaxes, illusions and so on, just kept everyone guessing. There is no longer any reason not to believe that by the end of 1957, at the latest, supersonic saucers were conducting regular flights over denied areas.

Why sacrifice our own, along with the British? Check your history books. The British knew their tanks were inferior but sent them to fight the German variety anyway.

Serious researcher in what way?  What methods?  What case studies have you examined?  What testimonies have you read.

I suggest you start all over again instead of posting this dismissive nonsense.

Edited by zoser, 15 November 2012 - 04:45 PM.

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#19    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:45 PM

View Postresearch, on 15 November 2012 - 04:40 AM, said:

As a serious UFO researcher, only one thing is clear: UFOs are man-made aircraft. That's the answer.

From Keyhoe, to the nonsense written by Hynek to the Condon Report, and let me throw in the science-fantasy writers John Keel and Jacques Vallee. The last two at least wrote interesting prose but with zero evidence.

From the official start of the UFO issue in 1947, it was made clear that such aircraft could be built with 1947 technology. That according to T-3 Engineering at Wright Field and interrogation reports in existence at the time. Scientists working on these craft in the US had to keep it all secret. There could be no official investigation. Not by scientists. Individuals were regularly ridiculed. Just look up the CERVIS-MERINT document for reporting Vital Intelligence Sightings. The report had to be made immediately and it includes a drawing of what cannot be mistaken for anything else - a flying saucer. Their primary purpose? Totally covert aerial reconnaissance. Defense contractors need to build things so the U-2 and then the SR-71 were trotted out as the best we could do. The goal is to always deceive the enemy, to create doubt.

So the military and scientists, along with public officials, have been laughing this all off for decades. Why? The saucers were to be our secret weapon during the Cold War. Sure, the optics could be replaced with the same warhead used on the Atomic Cannon in 1953. No one knew how many saucers were real and making them hoaxes, illusions and so on, just kept everyone guessing. There is no longer any reason not to believe that by the end of 1957, at the latest, supersonic saucers were conducting regular flights over denied areas.

Why sacrifice our own, along with the British? Check your history books. The British knew their tanks were inferior but sent them to fight the German variety anyway.
really? So, starting with our old friend Kenneth Arnold back in 1947, there've been aircraft developed in absolute secrecy (plausible), and then flown in full view of the public and any passing civilian aviator, but yet they were still kept secret, and not only then, but they've still been kept secret for 60 years? :unsure2: I'm afraid that seems way beyond the realms of plausibility. And exactly the same applies for more recent attributions of UFO Sigthings to Secret aircraft; they let them be seen publicly, even to the extent of flying them at low altitude and slowly, with lights blazing, over major cities,but yet they still manage to keep them Secret so that you won't find any reference to any of them in any reputable source or any aviation publication? I'm afraid that really doesn't seem very likely to me. :no:
Where incidentally do WWII tanks come into it? What have they got to to with UFOs or secret Aircraft? :unsure2:

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#20    zoser

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:47 PM

View Post747400, on 15 November 2012 - 04:45 PM, said:

really? So, starting with our old friend Kenneth Arnold back in 1947, there've been aircraft developed in absolute secrecy (plausible), and then flown in full view of the public and any passing civilian aviator, but yet they were still kept secret, and not only then, but they've still been kept secret for 60 years? :unsure2: I'm afraid that seems way beyond the realms of plausibility. And exactly the same applies for more recent attributions of UFO Sigthings to Secret aircraft; they let them be seen publicly, even to the extent of flying them at low altitude and slowly, with lights blazing, over major cities,but yet they still manage to keep them Secret so that you won't find any reference to any of them in any reputable source or any aviation publication? I'm afraid that really doesn't seem very likely to me. :no:
Where incidentally do WWII tanks come into it? What have they got to to with UFOs or secret Aircraft? :unsure2:

It's not very often I agree with you Mr Omsk but our views intersect this time like two non parallel straight lines.

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#21    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 04:50 PM

View Postpsyche101, on 15 November 2012 - 05:51 AM, said:

I have to echo S2F here. There is clear and conclusive evidence that some UFO's are indeed natural phenomena.

But with regards to space, no UFO has ever been tracked leaving the atmosphere and out into space, or vice versa. That's quite a biggie that everyone overlooks IMHO.
this is an objection that you often bring up, but could it not simply be that, when in what you might call "spaceflight" mode, they wouldnt' be visible to the eye? It could simply be that some byproduct of the propulsion system deflects light, or absorbs it, much in fact as I believe our own Scientists are experimenting with for military purposes here on earth. It needn't be deliberate, or for any Nefarious purpose, it might just be how they work. Maybe they just go too quickly to be spotted.
And that's before we consider questions of dimensional jumps or anything else.

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

H. P. Lovecraft.


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#22    research

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:16 PM

View Postzoser, on 15 November 2012 - 04:28 PM, said:

Serious researcher in what way?  What methods?  What case studies have you examined?  What testimonies have you read.

I suggest you start all over again instead of posting this dismissive nonsense.




On the contrary, what you and most here post is dismissive nonsense. Look up CIRVIS-MERINT. Look up the various versions of JANAP 146 (A), issued in 1950, to start.


#23    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 07:21 PM

View Postresearch, on 15 November 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

On the contrary, what you and most here post is dismissive nonsense. Look up CIRVIS-MERINT. Look up the various versions of JANAP 146 (A), issued in 1950, to start.
i tell you what, why don't you tell us? people telling everybody to do their homework does get a bit tiresome. What do CIRVS-INERT and JANAP 746(A) have to offer?

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

H. P. Lovecraft.


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#24    psyche101

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 05:42 AM

View PostProfessor T, on 15 November 2012 - 07:53 AM, said:

Queenstown, darn, I'm on the north Island.
Jupiter rocks.. I can usually see some banding, plus the four main moons..
Saturn.. Yep, can see the rings...
The Moon is utterly facinating... The details you can get are out of this world.. (lame pun intended)
But what really get's me going is the random stuff, finding a random a tiny smudge in the sky, then looking through the eyepiece and seeing a cluster of a hundred stars.. Or occasionally catching a grain of sand streaking a white-hot tail in the eyepiece overhead that no-one else on earth saw or will ever see again..  

Oop's, bit off topic..... no man-made ufo's though.. But looking at a 747's through a telescope... Hillarious...

:D It just keeps getting better. It sounds like you have stumbled on Messier Objects, the Butterfly Cluster is particularly spectacular I find.

Finding a plane in a telescope is very doable, this A320 photo was taken through a telescope.

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Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#25    psyche101

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 05:44 AM

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 15 November 2012 - 09:26 AM, said:

Given the equipment that existed at that time in the 1940s, they would not have been able to track these objects way out into deep space.  All they could say that something was flying around at very high altitudes and it could not be identified as anything that was produced on earth.

But not the case in the 50's 60's and 70's which provided ample opportunity.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#26    psyche101

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 05:45 AM

View PostAntilles, on 15 November 2012 - 10:55 AM, said:

A question.

The astronauts on route to the Moon on different missions reported strange anomalies.

This is in the 60's.

Ideas?


Buzz Aldrin was deliberately misquoted on his version of the Apollo 11 UFO, which by all counts is debris from the mission. Is there a specific case you have in mind?

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#27    psyche101

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 05:48 AM

View Postzoser, on 15 November 2012 - 04:47 PM, said:

It's not very often I agree with you Mr Omsk but our views intersect this time like two non parallel straight lines.

Of course he is right, it is ridiculous to think every sighting can be explained by a single answer. The UFO phenomena obviously has many answers. That however does not equate to Alien.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#28    TheMacGuffin

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 06:05 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 16 November 2012 - 05:44 AM, said:

But not the case in the 50's 60's and 70's which provided ample opportunity.


UFOs have been seen by astronomers, amateur and professional, all throughout history.  There have been many discussions about that before on here.  It's just a question of being lucky and looking in the right place at the right time.


#29    psyche101

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 06:10 AM

View Post747400, on 15 November 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:

this is an objection that you often bring up, but could it not simply be that, when in what you might call "spaceflight" mode, they wouldnt' be visible to the eye? It could simply be that some byproduct of the propulsion system deflects light, or absorbs it, much in fact as I believe our own Scientists are experimenting with for military purposes here on earth. It needn't be deliberate, or for any Nefarious purpose, it might just be how they work. Maybe they just go too quickly to be spotted.
And that's before we consider questions of dimensional jumps or anything else.



If that is the case we should not be seeing them inside of the atmosphere only. We know that thousands of reports of sighting exist, yet every single one is terrestrial with regards to it's flight path.



Dimensional jumps.


Posted Image




5. Physics A physical property, such as mass, length, time, or a combination thereof, regarded as a fundamental measure or as one of a set of fundamental measures of a physical quantity: Velocity has the dimensions of length divided by time.


tr.v. di·men·sioned, di·men·sion·ing, di·men·sions







Does that equate to another world? Another Universe? That very much remains to be seen. At this point it time, using it as an answer is no more than a guess. We do not have experience with dimensions, we barely have theory. Time travel is just as viable, which negates the need for space travel. So why do the claimed inhabitants, and that is all we have to go on with regards to the ideal, insist that they come from another planet and travel through space? Remember the Hill star map? The Reticulum, Roswell Aliens, all of them are supposedly travelling through space. Dimensionality has been invented to prop up the failing ETH. But is there any reason to think for a second that idea is any more believable than Andrea Rossi? The ideal did not come from testimony, it came from UFOlogy. Do you think that makes it a viable option? I think that lessens it's value as a possibility?

When I think about it, why is dimensional travel on the table? It helps some stories become easier to explain, but has anything rational to date supported this ideal?


From what I understand, we had inflation, and the primary element involved there is hydrogen. What if, and a big what if, this reaction happened slightly differently, I dont now, maybe two different molecules of matter and anti matter collided as opposed to what happened here, and a different element became the most abundant element. Instead if Hydrogen, perhaps some gas we do not know of, or something like helium replaced it. I wonder, surely that would affect the make up of the Universe as we know it. Carbon based life might not even be viable in such conditions. This could create a Universe that could exist right by our own undetected, perhaps even caused by the same "Big Bang".

But that is about as much sense as I have been able to make out from Vallee, like I always say, he a very complex and intelligent person. One that requires a little thought as opposed to the face value stuff.  



Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#30    psyche101

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 06:13 AM

View PostTheMacGuffin, on 16 November 2012 - 06:05 AM, said:

UFOs have been seen by astronomers, amateur and professional, all throughout history.  There have been many discussions about that before on here.  It's just a question of being lucky and looking in the right place at the right time.

Indeed, and I have to admit, I was quite surprised at just how many astronomers had reported UFO's. Some websites will say only 4 or 5 ever saw them, I have learned since that is not the case. But still not one has been observed coming here, or leaving here, or offered a direction in space, as the WOW! signal did.

That one I think is best bet.

Edited by psyche101, 16 November 2012 - 06:14 AM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who




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