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Is Buddhism a philosophy or a religion?

buddhism philosophy religion

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#46    Rlyeh

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 04:34 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 07 March 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

I think the Copenhagen interpretation kinda makes materialism/physicalism impossible; mind is a necessary ingredient in make the interpretation work.
Niel Bohr didn't seem to think so. http://plato.stanfor.../qm-copenhagen/

"Fourth, although Bohr had spoken about "disturbing the phenomena by observation," in some of his earliest papers on complementarity, he never had in mind the observer-induced collapse of the wave packet. Later he always talked about the interaction between the object and the measurement apparatus which was taken to be completely objective. Thus, Schrödinger's Cat did not pose any riddle to Bohr. The cat would be dead or alive long before we open the box to find out. What Bohr claimed was, however, that the state of the object and the state of the instrument are dynamically inseparable during the interaction. Moreover, the atomic object does not posses any state separate from the one it manifests at the end of the interaction because the measuring instrument establishes the necessary conditions under which it makes sense to use the state concept."


#47    Frank Merton

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 04:41 PM

View PostDarkwind, on 08 March 2013 - 04:26 PM, said:

Frank, question, do you think Buddha was to Hinduism what Jesus was to Judaism?  Didn't the Buddha come from a Hindu culture?
No.  Judaism preceded Jesus by ages.  Hinduism differs from earlier Indian religion in that it picked up an Indo-European pantheon of deities from the invading "Aryans," and other Indian religions didn't.  The other similarities -- reincarnation (rebirth), and the notion of karma probably date from the very earliest Indian civilizations of the Indus Valley.  Hindus assert that their religion came first, which is a touchy issue.  Let me just say that the Hinduism of today is less than 1500 years old and the traces that go back further would indicate that both Hinduism and Buddhism came out of a common tradition, and that Buddhism stayed closer to it in not picking up the polytheism that is in Hinduism (although more and more the sophisticated Hindu theologian becomes monotheistic, but that is another business).


#48    Rlyeh

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 04:44 PM

View PostMr Right Wing, on 07 March 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

In effect its you that creates the universe.
According to your egocentric philosophy and nothing more.


#49    Frank Merton

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 04:48 PM

You probably know more about the Copenhagen interpretation than I do, and I do not intend to assert that this is evidence of the truth of any aspect of Buddhist teaching.

I don't think, though, that Bohr's view is the last word.  He was almost desperate to stop mystical and other airy emanations that the interpretation seems to invite, and his words are unconvincing.  Most physicists of my acquaintance avoid the issue, or take a wait-and-see position, and don't look for ways to reject the outre conclusions that are possible.  

And, you know, there is always the "alternative universes" interpretation waiting in the wings.


#50    third_eye

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 04:52 PM

THe secret is there are no secrets ....

that's the problem with languages and verbal communication

You speak to yourself in your own voice but all you hear are the ghosts of mankind

Gotama awakened to his own voice

His voice now also haunts my mind

~

third_eye ' s cavern ~ bring own beer

~


#51    Rlyeh

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 04:58 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 08 March 2013 - 04:48 PM, said:

You probably know more about the Copenhagen interpretation than I do, and I do not intend to assert that this is evidence of the truth of any aspect of Buddhist teaching.

I don't think, though, that Bohr's view is the last word.  He was almost desperate to stop mystical and other airy emanations that the interpretation seems to invite, and his words are unconvincing.  Most physicists of my acquaintance avoid the issue, or take a wait-and-see position, and don't look for ways to reject the outre conclusions that are possible.  

And, you know, there is always the "alternative universes" interpretation waiting in the wings.
I think you're talking about the "consciousness causes collapse" Interpretation though.


#52    Frank Merton

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 05:05 PM

The collapse happens when we make the observation or measurement.  Is that right?  Now it may be an illusion -- the dual state remains because it isn't really a dual state but just some state we can't deal with in our minds -- and we infer a collapse.


#53    Rlyeh

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 05:11 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 08 March 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

The collapse happens when we make the observation or measurement.  Is that right?  Now it may be an illusion -- the dual state remains because it isn't really a dual state but just some state we can't deal with in our minds -- and we infer a collapse.
A few interpretations use the terms interchangeably when not refering to conscious observation.
Even Einstein used the term "observer" in his theories of relativity when any recording device would suffice.

In this experiment the "observer" is a device
http://www.scienceda...80227055013.htm

"To demonstrate this, Weizmann Institute researchers built a tiny device measuring less than one micron in size, which had a barrier with two openings. They then sent a current of electrons towards the barrier. The "observer" in this experiment wasn't human. Institute scientists used for this purpose a tiny but sophisticated electronic detector that can spot passing electrons. The quantum "observer's" capacity to detect electrons could be altered by changing its electrical conductivity, or the strength of the current passing through it."

Edited by Rlyeh, 08 March 2013 - 05:18 PM.


#54    awest

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 05:58 PM

What about the oracles? Are they not possessed by "gods"?

Edited by awest, 08 March 2013 - 05:59 PM.


#55    awest

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 06:03 PM

"

The studies that exist on Tibetan oracles show the tradition to be quite diverse and heterogeneous; however, there are some basic universal elements indicative of an oracle cult. There are a number of Tibetan words that refer to oracles: kuten (sku rten), "bodily receptacle;" lhabap (lha ‘bab), "god descent;" and lhaka (lha bka’), "god speech." These terms are descriptive enough in their capacity as titles, yet a number of other terms exist with varying levels of popular use and carrying greater cultural significance. Pawo (dpa’ bo)153 and pamo (dpa’ mo), "hero" and "heroine" respectively, focus more on the heroic qualities of these figures. Hildegard Diemberger argues that this title ties oracles to the epic bard traditions of Tibet and also draws attention to the dangerous experiences that are commonly found in the life narratives of oracles."

Seems that they do indeed believe in gods, at least in some form or fashion. Even the Dalai Lama consults the Oracles




#56    Br Cornelius

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 06:06 PM

Buddhism is an anti-religion dressed up as a religion. it assumes the religious forms of the culture it enters and then subverts them to undermine the principles of that cultures indigenous religion. Ultimately religion becomes meaningless if you achieve the central goal of the quest.
There is no God of Buddhism.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 08 March 2013 - 06:11 PM.

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

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#57    Frank Merton

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 06:16 PM

Tibetan Buddhism and its close relative in Mongolia are the end product of a long history of relatively isolated development, and markedly different from other Buddhists.  

Other than that I am not qualified to talk about them.


#58    Frank Merton

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 06:23 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 08 March 2013 - 06:06 PM, said:

Buddhism is an anti-religion dressed up as a religion. it assumes the religious forms of the culture it enters and then subverts them to undermine the principles of that cultures indigenous religion. Ultimately religion becomes meaningless if you achieve the central goal of the quest.
There is no God of Buddhism.

Br Cornelius
Although you speak in a hostile manner, there is something very true in what you say, although I would deny that this truth -- the assimilation that Buddhism encourages -- is in any way intended or planned.  Buddhism always allows the locals to practice whatever traditions they want, and works hard to find ways to make it succeed.  This stems I think from the view that all religious impulses are good and enlightening at heart.

The basic Buddhist teaching, that the objective of life is to end the trap of Samsara, and that the Buddhist life is a way (almost certainly not the only way) to do this, is not left behind.  The interpretation of the local culture as to what happens when the trap is escaped is probably just as valid as any other interpretation, since it is not something we can really imagine.I'm not sure what your intent is in saying ultimately it renders religion meaningless.  I don't think this has been the experience of any culture where Buddhism is important.

Edited by Frank Merton, 08 March 2013 - 06:24 PM.


#59    Godofcats

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 06:33 PM

I view buddism as more of a religion. It is full of supernatural beliefs. Fist it isn't true that buddism is athiest or agnostic about God. It gives one the choice of believing in God or not and i think one will find many a buddist do belive in God
Also buddism came out of hinduism mush like chistian faith came from jewish faith. There are many supernatural stories about budha himselve such as he spoke the day he was born, he snuck out of his palace carried by angels, and he meditated for seven years eating nothing but a grain of rice a day. Not to mention the belief in reincarnation and Nirvana,


#60    awest

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 06:51 PM

Well the whole not eating anything while meditating for a week isn't really all that far fetched. The man in this article was under scientific observation for two weeks without eating or drinking anything(that they saw, he might have been using slight of hand but he is 82, so I would like to think he wasn't so sneaky that he could sneak food and drink with "magic").

"In a country remarkable for tales powerful deities and exotic mystics, an 82-year-old man who claims he can survive without food or drink has baffled doctors who studied him and did not see him eat or drink anything for more than two weeks."
http://abcnews.go.co...ory?id=10787036





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