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Common Sense vs Tolerance


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#16    Frank Merton

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 03:17 AM

View PostRoyal, on 25 April 2013 - 02:58 AM, said:

The indictment of an entire religion can never equate to anything close to common sense!
Are you sure?  What about the ancient religions that offered up live babies to the fire?  What about the Aztecs who went on raids to capture people so as to carve out their hearts on the temple and then throw the bodies down to be cannibalized?

Now I have to be careful that I don't imply there is anything like that in Islam.  I mainly just want to make the point that religions can be condemned.  Certainly the behavior of the Christian crusaders at many points in that history can be condemned, and it was all endorsed from the highest to the lowest levels of Christendom.

Islam is an example of a "meme" (a word that had a lot of popularity a few years ago but seems to have fallen away, but that I think forms a useful way of thinking).  A meme is a system of thought that is self-perpetuating, like a living thing is self-perpetuating.  It has aspects in its belief system that help it propagate and help it survive.  There is competition among memes, and those with the most effective teachings and behaviors tend to persist and grow while those without them don't.

What is good for the meme however is not necessarily what is good for its adherents nor for humanity in general.  Warlike and intolerant behavior tends to be good for the meme, and harmful otherwise.  The Buddhist tendency to encourage young men to crawl into a monastery and study their toenails is good for many people of a certain personality, but not good for either humanity nor Buddhism, while getting these same devotees to go out and live happily and productively helps both humanity and Buddhism.


#17    Royal

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 03:28 AM

View Postredhen, on 25 April 2013 - 03:13 AM, said:

Not an entire religion, there are most likely many kind and compassionate Muslims (if you ignore the halal slaughter practices), and there are branches of Islam, like Sufism, that are quite acceptable, to us, not so much to other Muslims.

On the other hand, may I ask if it is commonsense to label a murderous spree at Ft. Hood that results in 13 dead while the suspect yells "Allahu Akbar", workplace violence?
   Probably as much as when a couple deny medical care to their children in the name of God and call it Parenthood.

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#18    F3SS

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 03:30 AM

Sick sympathizer.

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#19    Royal

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 03:39 AM

View Post-Mr_Fess-, on 25 April 2013 - 03:30 AM, said:

Sick sympathizer.
Was this directed at me?

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#20    Thanato

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 03:40 AM

I've been to an Islamic Republic, I've met the people and toured the country side. Despite the constant threat of death from an IED, Rocket, or gunfire, I know that 90% of the people who live there just want to go about their day and live their life. The problem is though that many of these nations are poorly educated and a number of them are easily swade by radical clerics who manage to latch on to the minds of kids and teach them radical ways, then that spreads to other means such as the internet. Then you have people over here in the western hemisphere who self radicalize.

The only reason we are demonizing an entire religion is because of the actions of a few people. Over there they are saying the same things about us, as a number of people are claiming it is a religion vs religion battle, which fuels the young people to want to fight us.

I have served along side Muslims who are stand up gentlemen and women, who I would trust with my life in the trenches. We need to remember we are not fighting a religion. We are fighting a minority of men and women who use their religion as a rally to try and twist the minds of young and ignorant people.

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#21    F3SS

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 03:41 AM

You tell me.

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#22    Royal

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 03:55 AM

View Post-Mr_Fess-, on 25 April 2013 - 03:41 AM, said:

You tell me.
   I'm going to take that as a yes. So, let me explain myself. I do not sympathize with any ideology in which atrocities are committed in the name of.

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#23    Frank Merton

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 04:02 AM

Thanato --

What you say is impressive; I suppose you refer to those Americans fight with in Afghanistan or Iraq.

Somehow the mindset of most Muslims has to be brought around to tolerance.  Islam is far too large a portion of the world's population to think that the rest of the world can retain this hostility, natural though it is.  I remember the reaction here in Ho Chi Minh City when Bush began bombing Iraq.  The official government position was of course to condemn the American "aggression."  Let me tell you, the people felt very otherwise, and even the official position was much softer than one would have expected, and steadily disappeared from the government press as the war proceeded.  There is immense hostility to Islam through most of the non-Muslim population in SE Asia and has been all my life.

It is very simply because of Muslim arrogance and intolerance.  It appears everywhere: they are entitled to do things that a non-Muslim is severely attacked for.  This especially applies to their attitude toward other religions and their freedom to criticize them, and when they can to persecute them.

I think Islam has to change, and I think it is changing, but perhaps not rapidly enough to avoid some sort of disaster.


#24    redhen

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 04:56 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 25 April 2013 - 04:02 AM, said:

It is very simply because of Muslim arrogance and intolerance.  It appears everywhere: they are entitled to do things that a non-Muslim is severely attacked for.  This especially applies to their attitude toward other religions and their freedom to criticize them, and when they can to persecute them.

Thanato, I appreciate your experience in Afghanistan, and I understand your refusal to generalize, but Frank has a good point. Members of non-Muslim religions (dhimmi) are severely restricted in Muslim nations. This is not some corruption of Islam, it's part of sharia law. Here's a list of some "regulations with respect to dhimmis". Not all Muslim countries execute apostates, but many do or at least have the death penalty on the books. Even in Afghanistan people have faced the death penalty for converting from Islam.

When you served in Afghanistan you must have sat in on some talks that explained the lesser status that non-Muslims have especially in regards public display of crosses, crucifixes, bibles, etc.? I'm sure these warnings were given in the most pc way though.


#25    acidhead

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 05:17 AM

View PostNefer-Ankhe, on 25 April 2013 - 01:03 AM, said:

@The first video...

It's a two way ticket, America is in these Islamic countries, sieging war, whilst these Islam's are in America. These type of radical religious actions and outbursts were inevitable to happen...

bingo


Its too obvious.  Some can't release their ego and admit it.

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#26    Frank Merton

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 05:26 AM

What you say doesn't square with what is happening now in Thailand, Myanmar (Burma) or Sri Lanka.  None of these countries is involved in Muslim countries, but they sure get their share of terrorism.


#27    Purifier

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 06:24 AM

View PostLeave Britney alone!, on 25 April 2013 - 02:25 AM, said:

Link lazy here so you will have to provide the trasnscript or you can transcribe a select quote.

In either case I don't watch Maher, he is not a true progressive, and you should quit parading him around as if he was one of us. Did you really think he was?

Maher sees it for what it is and tells the truth, perhaps you and your progressive kind should listen. A bias attitude will get in the way of mental clarity and always brings a blind eye to what is really true.

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#28    Thanato

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 11:16 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 25 April 2013 - 04:02 AM, said:


Thanato --

What you say is impressive; I suppose you refer to those Americans fight with in Afghanistan or Iraq.

Somehow the mindset of most Muslims has to be brought around to tolerance.  Islam is far too large a portion of the world's population to think that the rest of the world can retain this hostility, natural though it is.  I remember the reaction here in Ho Chi Minh City when Bush began bombing Iraq.  The official government position was of course to condemn the American "aggression."  Let me tell you, the people felt very otherwise, and even the official position was much softer than one would have expected, and steadily disappeared from the government press as the war proceeded.  There is immense hostility to Islam through most of the non-Muslim population in SE Asia and has been all my life.

It is very simply because of Muslim arrogance and intolerance.  It appears everywhere: they are entitled to do things that a non-Muslim is severely attacked for.  This especially applies to their attitude toward other religions and their freedom to criticize them, and when they can to persecute them.

I think Islam has to change, and I think it is changing, but perhaps not rapidly enough to avoid some sort of disaster.

Islam does need to evolve. It appears that as technology and society in general have evolved that particular religion from primarily the Middle East has failed to keep up. However when you look at the two most populace Muslim nations (India and Indonesia which together of nearly have 400 million people of that faith) you wont find many threats from them as Nations. In them Religious freedoms are fairly high. Though I know there are restrictions for non recognized religions in Indonesia.

View Postredhen, on 25 April 2013 - 04:56 AM, said:

Thanato, I appreciate your experience in Afghanistan, and I understand your refusal to generalize, but Frank has a good point. Members of non-Muslim religions (dhimmi) are severely restricted in Muslim nations. This is not some corruption of Islam, it's part of sharia law. Here's a list of some "regulations with respect to dhimmis". Not all Muslim countries execute apostates, but many do or at least have the death penalty on the books. Even in Afghanistan people have faced the death penalty for converting from Islam.

When you served in Afghanistan you must have sat in on some talks that explained the lesser status that non-Muslims have especially in regards public display of crosses, crucifixes, bibles, etc.? I'm sure these warnings were given in the most pc way though.

Islam has not evolved the same as it's brother religion, Christianity, that is mainly due to the society in which the two are most numerous. Where many of the believes of Islam live in Third World Nations many Christians live in first world nations. So the evolution of Society is drastically different. However I do remember reading that Christians did the same thing as the Muslims in terms of religious persecution. It's just for the most part they have evolved past physical harm to  non-believers.

When I was in Afghanistan, we where given classes on tolerance etc. Mostly to not offend them culturally. Such as only shake with your right hand. Try to wear a shirt when you are around them, etc. Nothing like 'they think what you believe in is less than what they believe in.' I spent a lot of time with Terps (interpreters) and I never got the vibe from them that I was an infidel, that because I didn't believe in Islam that I was lesser. Hell we had a muslim in our Crew as a vehicle commander.

Our *** wasn't concerned with if our troops religious affiliations offended the locals or not, just that our cultural differences didn't offend the locals.

~Thanato

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"I will eat your unhappyness!" ~Caboose

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"Freedom isn't bought in stores, it is bought on battlefields." ~Thanato
****

#29    Jeremiah65

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 01:04 PM

Sorry...but the truth stings doesn't it.

There are no modern Christian Church denominations...catholic or protestant...that calls for the death of those that criticize or "insult" their "founders".

I don't watch Bill Maher very often...I occasionally do to learn what knew ridiculous crap the Libtards are screaming about but on a rare occasion, I will admit I have agreed with him.  This is one of those times.

(For your edification...the last time I agreed with him was when he said the Liberals may be losing him over taxes...said it is just too much...and he is correct)

"Liberty means responsibility.  That is why most men dread it."  George Bernard Shaw
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."  Thomas Jefferson

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#30    Jessica Christ

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 01:16 PM

View PostPurifier, on 25 April 2013 - 06:24 AM, said:



Maher sees it for what it is and tells the truth, perhaps you and your progressive kind should listen. A bias attitude will get in the way of mental clarity and always brings a blind eye to what is really true.

No, the title of this thread can be translated as (populism/anti-intellectualism/common sense) vs (pluralism/scholarship/nuance).

Populism is the rights of the people as opposed to the elite but when we further explore we can see the identify of populists is based on their opposition to some shadowy elite which in turn makes it an expression of one monolothic group which you are either for them or against them. Thus it is based on an us vs them mindest. No room for even other non-elite groups such as minorities or foreigners in general.

In contrast pluralism is based on respecting the rights of all groups as equals or with the mechanisms that will foster greater egalitarianism.

Populists are highly anti-intellectual, they mistrust scholarship, they cast skepticism toward the ivory tower of academia, at its extreme they scorn the academic degreed as being out of touch with reality, and at minimum are hostile to expressions of higher culture (as in a cultured and sophisticated society) in favor of the least common denominator they all can agree upon. They would rather get information from Fox and comedians than from modern scholarship. Who offers more solutions?

Scholarship on the other hand favors nuance and exploration.

Common sense is, "sound practical judgment that is independent of specialized knowledge or training; normal native intelligence."

Common sense served us well in the tribal era but the modern world  demands nuance and sophisticated approaches to solutions.

We won't tackle social problems much less geopolitical ones with the blutness, brutness, and brutality of common sense. Bluntness as in a hammer or rusty knife instead of surgical precision.

Edited by Leave Britney alone!, 25 April 2013 - 01:24 PM.





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