None of the above Posted October 13, 2012 #26 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Then don't have your child circumsized. It's arrogant to try to impose your opinions of right and wrong on others. How dare you attempt to tell another person that their belief system is wrong - unless of course they are attempting to kill you because of it.... Gee thanks, I didn't Yeah that's right I'm 'arrogant' because I choose 'not to' abuse children. I guess I'll continue to 'dare' to be 'arrogant' then. I take it that you feel the same about female 'circumcision' in the muslim world? Want to protect that 'belief system' do you? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neognosis Posted October 13, 2012 #27 Share Posted October 13, 2012 if people want to get it done as adults i have no problem with that but removing a childs body part because an adult wants to is wrong . Then don't circumcise your kid. I have a son, and I chose not to circumcise him. But if we decided to, that is our business. I take it that you feel the same about female 'circumcision' in the muslim world? Want to protect that 'belief system' do you? That is up to THEM to change. If we disagree with something that is a part of their culture, we should not trade with them, and that includes buying their oil. Because if we go around getting involved in other people's cultures and telling them what they should or should't do, they might get really mad at us and do something like try to blow up buildings in one of our major cit... oh, wait.. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supervike Posted October 13, 2012 #28 Share Posted October 13, 2012 It's no skin off my front either way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaphod222 Posted October 13, 2012 #29 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Germany caved to muslim and jewish pressure. What a shame. They should have stood up and defended their secular constitution. "Religious liberty" is fine, but it should not extend to physical mutilation of children in the name of religion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaphod222 Posted October 13, 2012 #30 Share Posted October 13, 2012 I have a son, and I chose not to circumcise him. But if we decided to, that is our business. . ...and if you wanted to cut his hand or foot off, that would be "your business too"? Yes, parents have rights over their children, but they should not extend to mutilation. If the kids wants to cut things off his body, let him become 18 and make the decision for himself. It is not yours. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted October 13, 2012 #31 Share Posted October 13, 2012 http://www.nytimes.c...-says.html?_r=0 Awesome. The benefits of having sex with HIV positive partners. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aus Der Box Skeptisch Posted October 13, 2012 #32 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Awesome. The benefits of having sex with HIV positive partners. You realize that there are couples out there with HIV positive partners whom they love and care for right? Because that statement seemed to have meant there is something wrong with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aus Der Box Skeptisch Posted October 13, 2012 #33 Share Posted October 13, 2012 ...and if you wanted to cut his hand or foot off, that would be "your business too"? Yes, parents have rights over their children, but they should not extend to mutilation. If the kids wants to cut things off his body, let him become 18 and make the decision for himself. It is not yours. ha ha ha the old cut off a foot gag... love it! Its so extreme it makes it hilarious. Waiting until age 18 comes with added unnecessary risks that can be avoided by doing the procedure shortly after birth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLOMBIE Posted October 13, 2012 #34 Share Posted October 13, 2012 You realize that there are couples out there with HIV positive partners whom they love and care for right? Because that statement seemed to have meant there is something wrong with that. And those couples have unprotected sex? That doesn't seem like a lot of caring! Circumcised or not, the risk remains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted October 13, 2012 #35 Share Posted October 13, 2012 (edited) You realize that there are couples out there with HIV positive partners whom they love and care for right? Because that statement seemed to have meant there is something wrong with that. Getting circumcised so one can have unprotected sex with their HIV positive partner doesn't seem that beneficial, there is still quite a large chance of catching the virus. Condoms are more effective by far. Edited October 13, 2012 by Rlyeh 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted October 13, 2012 #36 Share Posted October 13, 2012 And those couples have unprotected sex? That doesn't seem like a lot of caring! Circumcised or not, the risk remains. Getting circumcised so one can have unprotected sex with their HIV positive partner doesn't seem that beneficial, there is still quite a large chance of catching the virus. Condoms are more effective by far. Where the study this assertion is being based on hardly can show a general relevance as it compares the US (generally circumcised) with South Africa and parts of South America (uncircumcised) where HIV infections are much higher due to sexual promiscuity anyway. If the comparison would be made with Europe I tend to believe that the results would hardly be so evident. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLOMBIE Posted October 13, 2012 #37 Share Posted October 13, 2012 And interestingly, health benefits have not been a part of the ungoing discussion here in Germany. I still see that as a pityful excuse to mutilate your kids, just as religious reasons are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neognosis Posted October 13, 2012 #38 Share Posted October 13, 2012 (edited) ...and if you wanted to cut his hand or foot off, that would be "your business too"? Yes, because it's EXACTLY THE SAME. That's DRIPPING sarcasm. Yes, parents have rights over their children, but they should not extend to mutilation. If the kids wants to cut things off his body, let him become 18 and make the decision for himself. It is not yours. Actually, yes it is, when it comes to circumcision. Check the laws here in the US. The culture is already changing here, and circumcisions are down every year. I don't believe in it, but I also don't believe in outlawing a religious and cultural practice that is literally thousands of years old, and cannot be shown to have a lasting negative effect on men. There are medical arguments for and against. I don't recall any medical arguments for cutting off a hand or foot. Edited October 13, 2012 by Neognosis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smurf0852 Posted October 13, 2012 #39 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Some people just seem to be wired up wrong .is slapping a child because you feel like it ok? Kicking him ? How about dangling a newborn out of a window naked in the middle of winter? I'm assuming you would consider causing harm to a child like this is disgusting. Yet people consider removing a body part because you want to is ok get a fing grip of yourselves . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neognosis Posted October 13, 2012 #40 Share Posted October 13, 2012 (edited) Circumcision is not the same as slapping or kicking a child. I'm sorry that you are wired to think it is. Again, we chose not to circumcise our child, and I believe that a cultural shift is happening that is resulting in fewer circumcisions, but to compare it to child abuse is to disregard the entire history of circumcision, as well as what medical professionals say on both sides of the discussion. To compare circumcision to dangling a naked child out of a window in winter is really pretty off base. Those of you who think that circumcision performed by a professional in a hospital is the same as beating a child or exposing them to the elements need to "get a fing grip of yourselves." Now, I've seen video of a few circumcisions, and they make me very glad we didn't put our son through that, and I do think it is barbaric, but I would not support a law against a religous tradition as old as human history. And the cultural shift is already happening. I'm sure you folks watch internet porn, look at how many american porn stars aren't circumcised.... Edited October 13, 2012 by Neognosis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickian Posted October 16, 2012 #41 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Actually, yes it is, when it comes to circumcision. Check the laws here in the US. The culture is already changing here, and circumcisions are down every year. I don't believe in it, but I also don't believe in outlawing a religious and cultural practice that is literally thousands of years old, and cannot be shown to have a lasting negative effect on men. There are medical arguments for and against. I don't recall any medical arguments for cutting off a hand or foot. I also don't agree with circumcision. I cannot understand how parents are given legal rights to permanently cut off parts of their children's body. A law should be made to prevent that from happening until the child is old enough to choose for permanent bodily alterations for himself. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mnemonix Posted October 17, 2012 #42 Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) I also don't agree with circumcision. I cannot understand how parents are given legal rights to permanently cut off parts of their children's body. A law should be made to prevent that from happening until the child is old enough to choose for permanent bodily alterations for himself. I wasn't circumcised as a baby, but at a much later age. Had to be done for religious purposes. Not exactly my choice Edited October 17, 2012 by Mnemonix 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Buzzkill Posted October 17, 2012 #43 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I wasn't circumcised as a baby, but at a much later age. Had to be done for religious purposes. Not exactly my choice What age? Would you prefer it to be done when you were a baby or not at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mnemonix Posted October 17, 2012 #44 Share Posted October 17, 2012 What age? Would you prefer it to be done when you were a baby or not at all? 14 years. I wasn't exactly looking forward to getting it done, at the time. I just knew it had to be done, so no complaining there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaphod222 Posted October 20, 2012 #45 Share Posted October 20, 2012 Since MILLIONS of these procedures have been performed over the centuries, some in very primitive circumstances, if there were long term health problems would they not be known? So the question becomes - whose right is it to suddenly deny anyone their heritage and traditions? Why is it suddenly so important? Justifying mutilation with "heritage" is a cheap excuse. Millions of Chinese girls have had their feet bound and crippled, before the practise was made illegal. Millions of muslim girls have been "circumcised" (e.g. the clitoris cut out). Millions of people have died from mediaval torture. Go take your "heritage" and put it in a museum. If you want to mutilate children, give us a sound medical reason. "Heritage" is not it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaphod222 Posted October 20, 2012 #46 Share Posted October 20, 2012 I wasn't circumcised as a baby, but at a much later age. Had to be done for religious purposes. Not exactly my choice Nothing "has" to be done for religious purposes. If you chose a religion, it is your choice. And religion that defines itself by cutting pieces of your body.... think twice about what kind of "religion" that is. A religion should be something spiritual, not mutilation. Do you really think there is some god out there who takes a particular interest in your foreskin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaphod222 Posted October 20, 2012 #47 Share Posted October 20, 2012 ha ha ha the old cut off a foot gag... love it! Its so extreme it makes it hilarious. Waiting until age 18 comes with added unnecessary risks that can be avoided by doing the procedure shortly after birth. Sure, cutting off your foot would also be "easier" when done at birth. That does not make it OK. Try an argument that is valid, if you can, (Of course you can´t find one.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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