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How/why would psi powers evolve?


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#1    Kevin A.

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 01:47 AM

This is a question I have been pondering a while and I will do my best to put it into words. I for one believe in evolution and do not believe in any deity or other worldly power having anything to do with us humans.

We see none of this psi power stuff in any other creature on this planet. Why? Surely such powers would benefit any creature out there in the wild. Oh and before anyone chimes in with "maybe that is why we are special and the dominant species here", we are just the dominant species here and now. It wasn't always like this and probably wont last forever. All of the things that make us "special" and "dominant" we see in other creatures. Memory, tool making/use, creativity, emotion etc. I do not see us as being very special.

All that being said I go back to my question. How or why would any of these psi powers come to be? Why would they exist? They benefit us nothing. Even if they exist they are small weak useless sometimes work sometimes not abilities that are more akin to a parlor trick or being double jointed than truly having some ability that is of use to us. Why in the world would these abilities exist if they are of no use to us? Every part of us is there because it helps with survival. Everything we are helps us survive. If the abilities truly existed would we not see them present in other species and perhaps more powerful or refined more given other species have been around for longer than us?

Another thing. How would a brain go from simple primate survival driven to acquiring the ability to do psi power things? What structures changes/evolved that allowed such a thing? From a purely physiological stand point what enables someone to exhibit some psi power?

Maybe I should have left this for a less tiresome evening......

Kevin A.


#2    eight bits

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 02:05 AM

Quote

Surely such powers would benefit any creature out there in the wild.

Quote

How or why would any of these psi powers come to be? Why would they exist? They benefit us nothing.

Gotta pick one, Kevin.

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#3    Sporkling

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 03:53 AM

Well looking at it this way, the electric eel can use electrictry.


#4    darkbreed

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 05:34 AM

Actually we do see these things in nature.

Animals are known for sensing when things like earthquakes etc are going to happen. Also other catastrophies.

Pets are also known for sensing when their owners are on their way home, specially dogs whom often run up to the window or door as the owner is getting closer but still far enough away for the dog to know it in any rational way. This has been video documented before, unfortunately i can't remember the program that this was featured in.

They are also frequently reported in the astral realm, and from personal experience at least cats can see spirits and astral projectors, which would explain why they sometime act  strange and stare at something that is not in the room, even chasing "nothing" around or getting scared at occasions.

The question is not how we evolved to get these "powers" as you call them, it is rather why we devolved and got our physical bodies which we do not need, and which restricts us greatly from experiencing our true selves.

Maybe we are indeed the "fallen angels".

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#5    DfizzleShizzle

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 08:24 PM

Kevin A. on Apr 9 2008, 09:47 PM, said:

This is a question I have been pondering a while and I will do my best to put it into words. I for one believe in evolution and do not believe in any deity or other worldly power having anything to do with us humans.

We see none of this psi power stuff in any other creature on this planet. Why? Surely such powers would benefit any creature out there in the wild. Oh and before anyone chimes in with "maybe that is why we are special and the dominant species here", we are just the dominant species here and now. It wasn't always like this and probably wont last forever. All of the things that make us "special" and "dominant" we see in other creatures. Memory, tool making/use, creativity, emotion etc. I do not see us as being very special.

All that being said I go back to my question. How or why would any of these psi powers come to be? Why would they exist? They benefit us nothing. Even if they exist they are small weak useless sometimes work sometimes not abilities that are more akin to a parlor trick or being double jointed than truly having some ability that is of use to us. Why in the world would these abilities exist if they are of no use to us? Every part of us is there because it helps with survival. Everything we are helps us survive. If the abilities truly existed would we not see them present in other species and perhaps more powerful or refined more given other species have been around for longer than us?

Another thing. How would a brain go from simple primate survival driven to acquiring the ability to do psi power things? What structures changes/evolved that allowed such a thing? From a purely physiological stand point what enables someone to exhibit some psi power?

Maybe I should have left this for a less tiresome evening......

Kevin A.


Well....Theres instincts that animals have..How animals usually know when bad things will happen, before they do...That seems like an example of preminition...Like, isn't it possible, these "abilities" were stronger in our primative times? When we needed them more...To a sense where a tribe could warn eachother telepathically..Or they could use psychic attacks to defend themselves...And as we became the dominant species, these abilites weaked, because we didnt need em as much...Thats why not everyone has em anymore maybe? Cause there is no common use for them now, like there would have been in the more primative times...


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#6    drakonwick

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 09:53 PM

Animals have far more powerful senses than we do, (As far as seeing, hearing, smelling, and feeling!)
When earthquakes are about to happen, animals can probably feel the slight vibrations in the ground
up to days, or weeks before the actual quake happens. Animals evolved this way for survival means.

As far as a family pet knowing their owner will be home soon, is more than likely due to the destinct
smell every human has. The animal gets to know this smell very well and reacts to it well before the
owner gets home.

Possibly the animal gets used to the distinct sound their owners vehicle makes, and reacts to this noise
well before the owner gets home. I will have to go with animals keen sensing abilities, before I assume
they have some type of supernatural ability outside of their own natural abilities.

I do not know about the AP, RV'ing phenomenon. There is evidence to suggest that it may be possible;
but, is there enough substantial evidence out there to prove it. To me it all just seems to break down to
the powers of chance.

Species evolve the way they do for a reason. They adapt, and evolve to their surroundings that best suit
the species needs for survival. Take a look around at how the world greatly changing; species are
changing their natural habits in the way they live to adapt to these changes.

Quote

Sporkling Posted Yesterday, 11:53 PM
Well looking at it this way, the electric eel can use electrictry.

Electric Eels work much like a battery, they have three organs that produce electricity. The main organ,
the hunter's organ, and the sach's organ. These organs are made of electrocytes lined up in a series.
The electrocytes are lined up so the current flows through them and produces an electrical charge.
Again, this is for nothing but survival means.

I personally feel, that humans do not need supernatural abilities; as we evolved in a manner that has no
need for such abilities.



Regards,
Tom



I remember the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says: "Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds." I suppose we all thought that, one way or another." - J. Robert Oppenheimer.

#7    DfizzleShizzle

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 10:08 PM

Moro Bumbleroot on Apr 10 2008, 05:53 PM, said:

Animals have far more powerful senses than we do, (As far as seeing, hearing, smelling, and feeling!)
When earthquakes are about to happen, animals can probably feel the slight vibrations in the ground
up to days, or weeks before the actual quake happens. Animals evolved this way for survival means.

As far as a family pet knowing their owner will be home soon, is more than likely due to the destinct
smell every human has. The animal gets to know this smell very well and reacts to it well before the
owner gets home.

Possibly the animal gets used to the distinct sound their owners vehicle makes, and reacts to this noise
well before the owner gets home. I will have to go with animals keen sensing abilities, before I assume
they have some type of supernatural ability outside of their own natural abilities.

I do not know about the AP, RV'ing phenomenon. There is evidence to suggest that it may be possible;
but, is there enough substantial evidence out there to prove it. To me it all just seems to break down to
the powers of chance.

Species evolve the way they do for a reason. They adapt, and evolve to their surroundings that best suit
the species needs for survival. Take a look around at how the world greatly changing; species are
changing their natural habits in the way they live to adapt to these changes.


Electric Eels work much like a battery, they have three organs that produce electricity. The main organ,
the hunter's organ, and the sach's organ. These organs are made of electrocytes lined up in a series.
The electrocytes are lined up so the current flows through them and produces an electrical charge.
Again, this is for nothing but survival means.

I personally feel, that humans do not need supernatural abilities; as we evolved in a manner that has no
need for such abilities.



Regards,
Tom



Well, we may have no need for them now...but, when humans were beginning to take hold on this planet..I think psychic abilites would of been very much nessesary for survival...

And, when you say "Animals natrual abilites" How do YOU know exactly what the limitations of an animals abilites are?

"A believer is a songless bird in a cage, a freethinker is an eagle parting the clouds with tireless wings." -Robert G. Ingersoll

"Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence." -Richard Dawkins

#8    Mahtu

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 10:28 PM

Kevin A. on Apr 9 2008, 06:47 PM, said:

This is a question I have been pondering a while and I will do my best to put it into words. I for one believe in evolution and do not believe in any deity or other worldly power having anything to do with us humans.

We see none of this psi power stuff in any other creature on this planet. Why? Surely such powers would benefit any creature out there in the wild. Oh and before anyone chimes in with "maybe that is why we are special and the dominant species here", we are just the dominant species here and now. It wasn't always like this and probably wont last forever. All of the things that make us "special" and "dominant" we see in other creatures. Memory, tool making/use, creativity, emotion etc. I do not see us as being very special.

All that being said I go back to my question. How or why would any of these psi powers come to be? Why would they exist? They benefit us nothing. Even if they exist they are small weak useless sometimes work sometimes not abilities that are more akin to a parlor trick or being double jointed than truly having some ability that is of use to us. Why in the world would these abilities exist if they are of no use to us? Every part of us is there because it helps with survival. Everything we are helps us survive. If the abilities truly existed would we not see them present in other species and perhaps more powerful or refined more given other species have been around for longer than us?

Another thing. How would a brain go from simple primate survival driven to acquiring the ability to do psi power things? What structures changes/evolved that allowed such a thing? From a purely physiological stand point what enables someone to exhibit some psi power?

Maybe I should have left this for a less tiresome evening......

Kevin A.


Well, that works in the animal kingdom, but nowadays having offspring has nothing to do with survival abilities in the human world.  It has to do with physical attractiveness and whatever factors somebody might find attractive, and since that's different for everyone, we have a very diverse mix of genetic material out there.  It's not so much, "Oh, that person has slightly longer arms and  looks tougher, so they're obviously more likely to survive, so they're the one for me."  And lots of times extremely attractive people don't even want children.  Usefulness of ability does not ensure its survival.  And you don't think that precognition is useful?  Even if it were slight, it would be like a slight heigtening of instincts, which could definitely save someone's life or help them in many ways.

Also, animal survival instincts can border on precognitive and there have been many animal studies where they have seen evidence of psychic ability in animals.  The only reason you've never "encountered" a psychic animal is because an animal can't tell you they're psychic.  They don't speak our language!

And also, you could have just said you believe in evolution and left it at that.  Why bring religion into it?  There's a whole other forum for that...

Edited by Mahtu, 10 April 2008 - 10:29 PM.

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#9    drakonwick

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 10:37 PM

Heartagram3200 on Apr 10 2008, 06:08 PM, said:

Well, we may have no need for them now...but, when humans were beginning to take hold on this planet..I think psychic abilites would of been very much nessesary for survival...

And, when you say "Animals natrual abilites" How do YOU know exactly what the limitations of an animals abilites are?

Well, you have your opinion, so, I will accept that even though you have no evidence to support that claim.

Animals limitations:

Lets go with a dog.

1.) Hearing - A humans hearing range is 20Hz to 20,000Hz. A dogs far exceeds this with a range of 40Hz to 60,000Hz.

2.) Smell - A dogs smell is 50 to 100 times greater than that of a human depending on the breed.

3.) Vision - Some dogs have night-vision for which humans do not have.

You can use that information, and get a good figure of what the limitations are.



Regards,
Tom

I remember the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says: "Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds." I suppose we all thought that, one way or another." - J. Robert Oppenheimer.

#10    DfizzleShizzle

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 10:45 PM

Moro Bumbleroot on Apr 10 2008, 06:37 PM, said:

Well, you have your opinion, so, I will accept that even though you have no evidence to support that claim.

Animals limitations:

Lets go with a dog.

1.) Hearing - A humans hearing range is 20Hz to 20,000Hz. A dogs far exceeds this with a range of 40Hz to 60,000Hz.

2.) Smell - A dogs smell is 50 to 100 times greater than that of a human depending on the breed.

3.) Vision - Some dogs have night-vision for which humans do not have.

You can use that information, and get a good figure of what the limitations are.



Regards,
Tom


How can dogs have night vision, if they are color blind?


"A believer is a songless bird in a cage, a freethinker is an eagle parting the clouds with tireless wings." -Robert G. Ingersoll

"Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence." -Richard Dawkins

#11    drakonwick

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 11:02 PM

Heartagram3200 on Apr 10 2008, 06:45 PM, said:

How can dogs have night vision, if they are color blind?

Dogs are not completely color blind, test results have shown that they can see variations of yellow and blue.

Dogs have have a structure called tapetum lucidum in the back of the eye that reflects light back towards the retina, increasing the amount of light it captures. In humans, only 10% of the light that enters the eye falls on photosensitive parts of the retina. An animal's ability to see in low light levels may be similar to what humans see when using first or perhaps second generation image intensifiers.

Why don't you read up on some of these things yourself Heart? You may find it interesting.

Edited by Moro Bumbleroot, 10 April 2008 - 11:02 PM.

I remember the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita. Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says: "Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds." I suppose we all thought that, one way or another." - J. Robert Oppenheimer.

#12    Kevin A.

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 01:37 AM

eight bits on Apr 9 2008, 10:05 PM, said:

Gotta pick one, Kevin.


I think I did. Here are my thoughts again and perhaps a little clearer. Maybe not. If not PM me and we can discuss. My words aren't coming to me as easily as normal currently. Isn't stress a wonderful thing?

Such psi powers would clearly benefit any animal out in the wild but it would  have to be beyond this sometimes on sometimes off parlor trick level of prowess we see presented to us from human beings. It would have to be an always on nearly perfect very obvious level of prowess for it to benefit the animal in any real way. But we don't see this. All we see is the parlor trick level of prowess. What benefit is this to any animal? Why would such slight unreliable weak abilities ever come into existence? For it to benefit an animal any and there by increase survival odds it would have to be a very obvious and high level of prowess. Otherwise it is useless.

I don't see useless things coming into existence or remaining for very long evolutionaly speaking.....


darkbreed on Apr 10 2008, 01:34 AM, said:

Maybe we are indeed the "fallen angels".
-ea


Moro covered the animal part and I am not even touching this "we devolved and do not really need our physical bodies" stuff. Good luck with that Darkbreed.....


Heartagram3200 on Apr 10 2008, 04:24 PM, said:

Well....Theres instincts that animals have..How animals usually know when bad things will happen, before they do...That seems like an example of preminition...Like, isn't it possible, these "abilities" were stronger in our primative times? When we needed them more...To a sense where a tribe could warn eachother telepathically..Or they could use psychic attacks to defend themselves...And as we became the dominant species, these abilites weaked, because we didnt need em as much...Thats why not everyone has em anymore maybe? Cause there is no common use for them now, like there would have been in the more primative times...


Again Moro covered this but no, it wouldnt work like that. If a "tribe" of early humans could use psi power to warn each other, attack someone or defend themselves we would see these abilities probably to this day. Over time spoken language would not be used, they would communicate completely telepathically. We would not have seen the various weapons and weapon materials evolve is psi attacks and defense could be used instead. If humans ever had these abilities we would still see them as strong today as they ever were. If humans weren't fighting mother nature and her minions we were fighting each other. Our psychic abilities would have been maintained as much as out need for weapons and communication. We would still see these things to this day.


Moro Bumbleroot on Apr 10 2008, 05:53 PM, said:

I personally feel, that humans do not need supernatural abilities; as we evolved in a manner that has no
need for such abilities.

Regards,
Tom


Very good points Tom. Your last point there summed up my whole point for this thread though. Nice work.


Heartagram3200 on Apr 10 2008, 06:08 PM, said:

Well, we may have no need for them now...but, when humans were beginning to take hold on this planet..I think psychic abilites would of been very much nessesary for survival...

And, when you say "Animals natrual abilites" How do YOU know exactly what the limitations of an animals abilites are?


Again like Moro has explained we have studies ran with many many types of animals. We have studied many animals both alive and dead. We seem to have a pretty good idea what the limits of an animals abilities are. I think you can safely say we have observed and studied these things to the point we can rule out animals having any real psi like powers.....


QUOTE (Mahtu @ Apr 10 2008, 06:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And also, you could have just said you believe in evolution and left it at that.  Why bring religion into it?  There's a whole other forum for that...


I covered both bases. I made points based on evolution. With mentioning some other worldy power I left room for points to cut in from that direction. I mentioned it specifically because such things have no place here. Look to Darkbreeds post for an example.....


Thanks to all for your thoughts and opinions.

Kevin A.


#13    Lady Otterwynnd

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 03:58 AM

Heartagram3200 on Apr 10 2008, 03:45 PM, said:

How can dogs have night vision, if they are color blind?

Well first of all, when you're in the dark, the color-sensing parts of your eyes don't sense light anymore. They don't need to. Why would you need to see color in the dark? There's really not enough light for both parts to work if I remember correctly. You can even test this with yourself, really. Sit in a dark room and when your eyes get used to the darkness, see if you can see any color. (I actaully learned this in science camp in 5th grade  laugh.gif I can't believe I still remember it!) But, again, dogs aren't colorblind, it's just a myth. So, yes, dogs CAN have night-vision even though they cannot see the full spectrum of color that we do.

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#14    Rosewin

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 08:15 AM

Kevin A. on Apr 9 2008, 08:47 PM, said:

We see none of this psi power stuff in any other creature on this planet.


Here are several examples of anspi.

Cats can stare at a bird on a tree and somehow entrance them so the bird simply falls to the ground without any physical contact. The cat then can quickly pounce on the bird and benefit with a meal.

It has been proven that a dog's owner can leave for the day, and through random chance return on time, or return early, or be held up and return later than usual. Regardless of the time the pet owner ends his business and starts to move in the direction of his home where the dog is, the dog will then at that exact moment rush to the door and faithfully await his master.

There is also the case where an American soldier in Vietnam was coming home early and was keeping it a surprise. His dog though took some of the soldiers things to the door alerting the family that their servicemen was coming home.

It has already been mentioned that dogs, taken far away from home and dumped off, without knowing how to read a map, without having the ability to recollect the route through memory and using visual aids, and without having a scent to follow, can appear days or weeks later at the home of the owner who had attempted to abandon them.

Of course there is the odd tale of a redhead being able to sit on a pile of fire ants without being stung once.

As for humans, perhaps one time before the Flood, they were technologically advanced not the way we are today but in a more psi way. You do not have to believe in the Bible or any deity to take for face value the many legends of various ancient peoples, which might contain truth in them, that a flood did occur. How did the ancient construct the megaliths? Modern machinery cannot construct one so perhaps it was psi.

Regardless of the past the current societies in many ways limit those living them. Psi could be very common, or not, if only we were taught about its possibilities as a child instead of relegating it to the realms of fiction and disbelief.

What about poltergeist activity that can usually be attributed to the changes a girl is going through around puberty or even to recently married couples. Both are times of change and both possible forms of PK.

There are also studies of patients who are prayed for heal faster even if the patient does not know he is being prayed for or not. Studies of plants who can thrive longer when meditation or verbal praise occur around them.

The examples are endless and in the end the belief or disbelief by any person does not prove or disprove its existence for others who have either never experienced psi activity or even to those who have.


#15    eight bits

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 10:40 AM

Hi, Kevin. Thank you for the clarification, and I think I understand where you are coming from.

The question of what confers advantage is a trickier one than it might first appear. When you write about "parlor ticks," you are comparing one hypothetical mode of communication with the medium you and I are using now. Compared to that, of course, all biological systems fall short.

From an engineering perspective, however, things look different. I have in mind a specific engineer, Richard Epstein, who wrote The Theory of Gambling and Statistical Logic.

Intuitively, we might compare communication channels along two dimensions: baud rate and reliability, say. But it has been understood since before World War II that there really is only one dimension: baud rate (how many bits I can move per unit time). Reliability depends on how the message is coded (how many bits I must move to ensure that one bit of source message is actually received at the destination).

It is a theorem that so long as the baud rate is positive (not zero - some bits move), then any message that can be sent at all can be sent using any channel with whatever reliability you choose (and no channel is 100%). You just code the message correctly to accommodate the channel. Grab a candy bar, because it will take a while with some channels. But with time, the message will get through.

We know that natural selection can exploit the coding theorem. There is a severe bottleneck between your retinas and central visual processors, the optic nerve. It is "slow" and "noisy," and yet a high resolution picture of the visual surround gets through in acceptably "real time" with high reliability. We do not yet know all the details, but we do understand that the feat depends on the sophisticated coding of information that passes through the channel.

So, suppose hypothetically that you and I both could really have an average 21% success rate on the 20% Zener card card task. Then it would be possible for us to exchange messages with the same reliability as we are doing right now. It would be much slower, and only "practical" for short messages, but it would work.

So, is there any selective advantage in having a highly reliable, low volume communications channel? We can debate that, but I am content to leave it as a question for now, that it is at least not obvious that the answer must be no.

This would look nothing like the comic book psi crap, nor the hoodwinkers', exploiters', and charlatans' signs and wonders. Instead, it would look like everything else in nature: just good enough to add a tiny fraction of a percent to the probability that I live long enough to have a child, whether or not I live a moment longer than that. Bloody business, natural selection is.

Edited by eight bits, 11 April 2008 - 10:40 AM.

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