1828 replies to this topic

[DieChecker]

nopeda, on 23 October 2012 - 09:18 PM, said:

If we're in an adjustment area then that's how it would necessarily seem to us until we can do some testing outside of it, if that ever happens.

So then why should we even worry about it? I agree that what you state may be possible, but it is impossible currently to test. And thus it must be assumed at present that everywhere is the same.

So, why should we worry about the speed of light adding then? If there is some mysterious field effect and drain of energy, then surely that would stop ET from going past c and developing FTL craft. If ET does have FTL craft, then clearly there would be something in physics we don't understand yet. But, then again... we need to show that there are ETs and they have craft.

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Here's something that led me to believe doppler shifting would be maintained even after the adjustment had been made:
_________________________________________________________
http://www.alternati...itterEffect.htm
. . .
The laser beam starts at the left, passes through the glass, then exits the right of it. We know that light slows down as it passes through a transparent medium. The amount of slow-down is determined by the reciprocal of the refractive index of the medium. In the case of glass it’s around 1.52. But let’s simplify things by making it 1.43. This makes the slow-down amount 0.7, i.e. 70% of light speed.

So as the beam moves through the glass it is going at 0.7c. But what is this speed relative to? To the glass of course. Once the beam enters the glass it starts moving from atom-to-atom within the glass. Each atom becomes a new launch point for the light and that is what the beam moves relative to. To make a weak analogy, it is like someone running first on dry land then through waist-deep water: the water is the medium that determines current speed, not the dry land.

From my online researching of this over the last couple months, I can say that this is not completely true. There are two effects in such a situation. Light is not generally absorbed and released by the molecules of a transparent material. This is proofed by the fact that a beam could not pass through such a material, as light would be emitted by the molecules/atoms in all directions no is only one vector. Such experiments have been done and such a thing can happen, but this is not what happens under normal transparent material refraction. Normal refraction is caused chiefly by the material surface. It is the light penetrating the surface that causes it to be slowed. Then when it comes out the other side, it returns to c (in air) from c (in water, or glass, or crystal, or whatever...) and the energy difference caused by the surface interaction (that caused the slowing) results in a wavelength change.

Thus if you had a laser (white light) hitting a pane of glass out in space somewhere between Earth and Alpha Centauri (a near vacuum), the laser would hit the surface of the glass and slow to about 66% of c (in a vacuum). Some energy would be imparted to the glass at this point. Then the laser would move through the glass as white light (wavelength is the same as original emitted laser), hitting the other side of the pane of glass. It then would revert back to c (in a vacuum) and go on its way. But the wavelength of the laser would now be greater, as the energy absorbed by the glass, when the light was slowed to 66%, must be accounted for. Here is it possible to see that c is a hard limit, as light always goes back to c.

For light to go faster then c, then you would need a medium with a cooefficent of absorbtion/transparency greater then 1. Or, you'd have to have something, some region of space, that is more clear then vacuum, which is impossible according to modern science. What can be more clear then nothing?

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Speed of Light in a Vacuum: 299,792,458 meters per second [source]
Speed of Light in Air: 298,925,574 meters per second [source]
Speed of Light in Glass: ~ 2x10^8 meters per second [source]

http://cadlab6.mit.e...uum,_air,_glass

200000000 / 299792458 = 0.667 = 66.7%

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The beam then exits the block and returns to its full speed. It is now travelling at c. But relative to what – the laser or the glass? Again: the glass. The beam can no longer be influenced by the laser since it left that long ago. The final layer of atoms in the glass represents the beam’s most recent launch point so they are what determine the beam’s current speed.
We’ll now complicate the situation a little as shown:

As I just said this is false physics wise. What is described is possible, but has only been done under very controlled circumstances with very specific engineered materials. The light leaves the glass, but the speed is relative to space/time, not the glass. That glass can be moving at any speed from 0 to 99% of c (in a vacuum) and it will always come out moving at c. This is scientifically been prooven countless times.

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Assuming the ballistic theory of light is correct, the light from the moving laser will strike the glass at a slightly higher velocity. For arguments sake we’ll say the laser is going at 0.1c. So the two beams will hit the glass – one at c and the other at 1.1c.

Your first error is assuming the ballistic theory of light is correct. It was shown to be false over 100 years ago. And all experiments done since have confirmed this.

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The beams strike the glass. Then what? They both slow down of course. But by how much: does the ‘motionless’ beam slow to 0.7c and the ‘moving’ beam to 0.8c?

Answer: they both slow to 0.7c. The beam is now inside the glass and is moving relative to it. The initial speed of the laser can no longer have any effect on the current beam speed because, as before, the beam is now moving from atom to atom within the glass. Those atoms are what control the speed.

The beams then reach the other side of the glass and exit. The beams now go back to full speed: c. But relative to what – the lasers? No, the glass of course! Like the earlier example, the original beam speed is no longer important. The beams exiting the glass now move with identical speed.

This is not to say the beams will be identical in all aspects. The beam from the moving laser strikes the glass at a higher velocity and its light waves will appear to have a frequency 10% higher. This frequency will be preserved throughout the process. And the observer will see the moving laser beam as having a higher frequency – a Doppler shift!  But the final velocity of both beams will be the same: c.
. . .
http://www.alternati...itterEffect.htm
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Since the speed of the lasers at c is relative to space/time and not to the emitter or reciever, this arguement is flawed. Light is not a bullet that if fired out the back of a 150 mph (67 m/s) bullet train at the speed of sound (340 m/s) so that its ground velocity is 273 m/s. Light is like a rock on the ground (velocity = 0), it will always return to c (in a vacuum) if nothing is happening to it. c is the "at rest" speed for photons. The default speed. It can be slowed down, and have energy taken out of it, but cannot have energy added. (I don't think even a supercollider can add energy to a photon once it is emitted.) Thus you can't have a photon moving faster then c (in a vacuum) under any circumstance inside regular space/time.

If you want to assume that space/time is different in intergalactic space... fine, but that has no baring on physics inside the galaxy, inside out solar system and here on Earth. Any ETs out there will have to live with the same Rules we do.

[Myles]

nopeda, on 23 October 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:

The Abydos helicopter and company. I've been told by people in this forum that they don't resemble air vehicles, which is dishonest since it wouldn't be known as the Abydos helicopter if it didn't look like a helicopter. I've also been told that they are carvings that have been carved over, carvings which parts have fallen off of, carvings that have been plastered over a bit, plastered over and then carved, and probably everything except that they were carved to appear as they do. But! They LOOK like they were carved to appear as they do, and all the other suggestions seem incredibly unlikely. It would be stranger if those stone carvings just happened to fall apart in ways that made them look like air vehicles than it would if they were inspired by things humans saw imo even if they were what they appear to be. Notice there's also a flying insect carved nearby which is omitted from many of the pics:

http://vejprty.com/abylet1.jpg

So whether they are representing air vehicles or not there IS evidence that they are, and there has been dishonesty encouraged for whatever reasons people have been dishonest. I've even been encouraged to accept the idea that the carvings could have been inspired by clouds.

The bolded part is "evidence" of what you think is a helicopter is actually an insect.
You keep saying air vehicles.   What other item besides the one that looks a little like a helicopter do you see?

[Myles]

DieChecker, on 24 October 2012 - 12:32 AM, said:

So, why should we worry about the speed of light adding then? If there is some mysterious field effect and drain of energy, then surely that would stop ET from going past c and developing FTL craft. If ET does have FTL craft, then clearly there would be something in physics we don't understand yet. But, then again... we need to show that there are ETs and they have craft.

C'mon, we already know that they used circa 1940's human technology based helicopters!

[Harte]

Myles, on 24 October 2012 - 01:44 PM, said:

The bolded part is "evidence" of what you think is a helicopter is actually an insect.
You keep saying air vehicles.   What other item besides the one that looks a little like a helicopter do you see?

Myles,

Go back further in the thread.  This bozo has already been shown, in photos, the hieroglyphs which appear in that panel written in another context, yet refuses to believe his own eyes (thus landing on my ignore list.)

Harte

[synchronomy]

Harte, on 24 October 2012 - 02:08 PM, said:

Myles,

Go back further in the thread.  This bozo has already been shown, in photos, the hieroglyphs which appear in that panel written in another context, yet refuses to believe his own eyes (thus landing on my ignore list.)

Harte

Interesting to hear this.
I spent nearly an hour researching and writing a post a couple of pages back for the individual you refer to here, to explain nicely theories of time and space dilation wrt to c in a vaccuum.
His reply was to dismiss "my theories" because he thinks they are not true.
IMHO, there's a game being played here in which well intentionned members are pawns.
The OP has 580 posts since joining the forum in March 2012, of which he has only posted in this thread.
So for 1805 posts, we have been beating our heads against a brick wall...while he just builds the wall higher.

[Gaden]

synchronomy, on 24 October 2012 - 03:09 PM, said:

Interesting to hear this.
I spent nearly an hour researching and writing a post a couple of pages back for the individual you refer to here, to explain nicely theories of time and space dilation wrt to c in a vaccuum.
His reply was to dismiss "my theories" because he thinks they are not true.
IMHO, there's a game being played here in which well intentionned members are pawns.
The OP has 580 posts since joining the forum in March 2012, of which he has only posted in this thread.
So for 1805 posts, we have been beating our heads against a brick wall...while he just builds the wall higher.

I decided quite some time ago I no longer wanted to participate in his games. Almost 600 posts since March on only two points and the typical response is " I don't believe it" or " You are lying" or " You don't have a clue" or the oldie but goodie " You can't even get to the starting line"  From the start, the main tactic was to deride and insult. I do not believe I have read a single post that indicated an intelligence level above that of a 12 year old. I, too, have him on ignore, occasionaly "view it anyway" and then regret it. Does anybody else get the mental image of a little boy with his fingers in his ears screaming LALALALALALALA?

[Harte]

No.

More like screaming "MEMEMEMEMEMEMEME!!!"

Harte

[Gaden]

Harte, on 24 October 2012 - 05:19 PM, said:

No.

More like screaming "MEMEMEMEMEMEMEME!!!"

Harte

Well, he is smarter than any physicist who has ever lived, since he has light speed figured out, when none of them can grasp it.

[Oniomancer]

nopeda, on 23 October 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:

The Abydos helicopter and company. I've been told by people in this forum that they don't resemble air vehicles, which is dishonest since it wouldn't be known as the Abydos helicopter if it didn't look like a helicopter. I've also been told that they are carvings that have been carved over, carvings which parts have fallen off of, carvings that have been plastered over a bit, plastered over and then carved, and probably everything except that they were carved to appear as they do. But! They LOOK like they were carved to appear as they do, and all the other suggestions seem incredibly unlikely. It would be stranger if those stone carvings just happened to fall apart in ways that made them look like air vehicles than it would if they were inspired by things humans saw imo even if they were what they appear to be. Notice there's also a flying insect carved nearby which is omitted from many of the pics:

http://vejprty.com/abylet1.jpg

So whether they are representing air vehicles or not there IS evidence that they are, and there has been dishonesty encouraged for whatever reasons people have been dishonest. I've even been encouraged to accept the idea that the carvings could have been inspired by clouds.

It was pointed out to you repeatedly, two or three times by myself, that that it is not parts of the plaster that's fallen out but _all_ of the plaster. The fact that the carvings are viewable in their entirety at all bears this out. It was further pointed out not that they were inspired by clouds but that their resemblance to aircraft is comparable to seeing shapes in clouds, along with the fact that the bee appears everywhere in Egyptian writing as a symbol of kingship. It is you therefor who are being dishonest, To the point where one must assume either calculation or the extreme opposite.

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They do NOT appear to have just fallen apart, and they do NOT appear to have been carved over. They appear to have been carved as they are except for a piece in front of the helicopter, afaik.

And there we have it. Call me a masochist, How exactly are such things which have fallen or been carved over supposed to appear?

[DieChecker]

Oniomancer, on 24 October 2012 - 11:41 PM, said:

And there we have it. Call me a masochist, How exactly are such things which have fallen or been carved over supposed to appear?

It is like he sees a part of a green garden hose and says, "Look. A snake." and then refuses to believe it when shown that it goes into the wall and has a sprinkler on one end. "It does not LOOK like the pieces fell out." But, it does. The piece between the "rotor" and the "body" of the helicoper is clearly very rough and cracked off, and was not chiseled out. Even if we all believed they were meant to be air vehicles, the fact that Egyptian words can be superimposed over them would a monumental coincidence. So much so, that it probably cannot be expected to happen randomly.

[Oniomancer]

DieChecker, on 25 October 2012 - 12:17 AM, said:

It is like he sees a part of a green garden hose and says, "Look. A snake." and then refuses to believe it when shown that it goes into the wall and has a sprinkler on one end. "It does not LOOK like the pieces fell out." But, it does. The piece between the "rotor" and the "body" of the helicoper is clearly very rough and cracked off, and was not chiseled out. Even if we all believed they were meant to be air vehicles, the fact that Egyptian words can be superimposed over them would a monumental coincidence. So much so, that it probably cannot be expected to happen randomly.

Eeeeeexactly. And figure in if they want to use the same rafter, there's only so much room they've got to work in, so they're bound to overlap somewhere. But then he's already ignored perfect examples of this to the immediate right of the "vehicles" already shown to him.

[Gaden]

DieChecker and Oniomancer, you have both shown all of us that you are logical thinkers and are intelligent. I respect both of you and your opinions and persistence. Having said all that however, I must say you are wasting your time. Prediction; you are both to be labeled as liars. Possibly not, now that I have said that, but most certainly had I not.

[booNyzarC]

The writing was on the wall within the first day of this thread.  Within a week, it was hi-lighted with a pink fluorescent marker.  After the first month, it wasn't just on the wall, it was scribbled repeatedly over every single surface of the room; walls, ceiling, and floor.  By now it is rotating above the building with glowing neon lights, plastered on billboards, and trailing behind circling airplanes on rippling banners.

Why on earth are you people feeding this troll?

You'll do no good.  You'll just waste your time.  He'll never respond to reason.  He's not here for discussion.  He's here solely to get a rise out of people, and damn if he hasn't done a grand job of that.






I wonder...

What would happen...

If people just...

Stopped...

Responding...





completely.

[Slave2Fate]

This may be a part of it.




I've been guilty of it myself more often than I'd care to admit.

[Quaentum]