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The True Meaning of Life


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#211    Sherapy

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 04:04 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 13 March 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

Th  problem is that I know, using the same evidences, than an angel is as real physical and objectively existent as a chair. But you do not know this, and thus do not accpet it. There is no difference in reality, or in my mind between a real physicla angel and a real physical chair and thus there is no differnce in the way i can view them objectively, identify them and catalogue them.

There is no difference in how i can interact with them physically. It is this which you and others do not accept You keep believing that angels are some form of inner mental construct rather than external physical entities like chairs.  WE must all use the same evidences proofs and logics to establish every piece of our reality. No more; no less.

An angel is no more extraordinary than a chair in my world and has the same objective proofs for its existence as a chair does.. I dont think i sit on a chair and i dont think i have an angel friend.

An angel is a physical entity capable of being seen by others, heard by others, and physically interacting with me, others, and the environment. That is just the way it is.

I had an imaginary  pet dog as a young child. I could see it and no one else could, but i knew it wasnt real, because it did not offer the objective evidences which a real independent and physical entity must offer I knew it was a construct of my mind and hence it was at my beck and call. it operated as an extension of my mind and my will. Angels dont operate like that either, they are entirely self willed self motivated highly intelligent beings with knolwedge and abilities beyond my own which they can impart to me. They have physical abilities of healing, protection, and teaching/mentoring, emanating not from within me but from within them sleves.

I am a pretty cluey bloke but I dont possess super powers Those abilities come via external entities If you dont want to call these entities angels call them aliens. I dont care because that is what they actually are. For some peole having an alien as a protector sounds more rational than having an angel because it eliminates any religious aspect.

There is no religion in my conection to god and angels, and no belief. The relationship is like that between me and my dog but where I am more like the dog and god is more like me. It is a mutually beneficial sort of symbiotic connection, which involves physical and metaphysicla aspects. (As does my relationship with my dog) God, for me, is not a religious figure, precisely because he is real. He is a mate, a father and brother figure, a mentor and a protector. I never worshipped my physical father but i loved, honoured, respcted him, and listened to and learned from him. I have the same relationship with the entity I call god.

You CAN NOT have that sort of relationship with your own mental constructs.


In very simple terms, if you can accept that a chair I can see and can be seen by others has objective existence, then it is illogical and irrational to  not accept that an angel I can see, touch, hear, etc and can be seen by others, does not have the same objective existence. Only you can know why you require two different criteria for acceptance of my observational accuracy and that of others..


MW the premise of your argument is false, angels do not have a physical reality(if they did they would be able to be verified by valid means) therefore, your conclusion does not follow.

You are asking me to accept your angel has a physical reality based on your observational accuracy.

I accept that your angel has a subjective reality based on your world view. Not religious per say, but that you believe that you have an angel pal and you believe this is possible. It is very possible to think that things are real, people believe in all kinds of things. What ever works for you, go for it.




#212    Frank Merton

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 04:05 PM

I am only familiar with four conserved quantities -- mass/energy, electric/charm charge, momentum and angular momentum.  Anyone want to fill me in on the other two?


#213    Sherapy

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 04:08 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 13 March 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

Mr. Walker described what I posted as "descartian rubbish," and then, as far as I can tell, went ahead and said over much what I had said, so that it all puzzles me.  I thought I knew Descartes, but how all this is Cartesian goes over my head.

The "reality" of angels makes me wonder what is going on.  Are similar things to be said about ghosts and demons and whatnot -- that they are made of physical stuff?  If so it is stuff with odd properties.

I wouldn't take it personal FM, MW has critiques for the majority of mathematician's and philosophers,so with that being said you are in good company- Descartes is alive and well in academia.




#214    third_eye

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 04:29 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 13 March 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

I am only familiar with four conserved quantities -- mass/energy, electric/charm charge, momentum and angular momentum.  Anyone want to fill me in on the other two?

Conservation of charge
Conservation of momentum
Conservation of mass/energy

Conservation of angular momentum
Conservation of baryons
Conservation of leptons


http://quarknet.fnal...ation.html#mass

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#215    Mr Walker

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 11:56 PM

View Postthird_eye, on 13 March 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

The 'reality' of our common existential 'reality' is a set of pre programmed labels/values ingrained in all societies by common language and communication.
It is merely a set with props that is decidedly more popular or availability.
A chair is an illusion of itself but is a constructed illusion made useful to our needs and our comfort.
Humans can sit quite comfortably on the ground, but the idea of the chair was adapted into reality where it never existed before, as what a chair is supposed to be thus weaving its existence into the fabric of other entrenched ideas of previous generations making it a 'part' of reality.

Reality doesn't come in parts .... as far I myself is seeing it now.

here

everything is conserved ... nothing was ever lost .... from then till then till when

the 'chair' is meaningless without us and would never have existed without us,

~edit : lingual deficiency
How is the ground different, in its objective physical independent and  solid reality, from a chair?

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#216    third_eye

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 12:06 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 13 March 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

How is the ground different, in its objective physical independent and  solid reality, from a chair?

define ground and you define the difference.
As it is 'ground' means nothing, regardless of our awareness or not, we could all die off the next minute but the ground is still what it ever was.
When we define 'the ground' we by applying our logic of reality , land , property, worth. value, ownership, borders ..... every one as solid as ideas and as independent but illusions nonetheless.
THe chair was never was, it is molded plastic, metal or wood shaped into a form we know as a 'chair'
Without us there would not be anything such as a chair, if we never endeared to the idea of chairs, we will just be sitting on the ground.

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#217    Mr Walker

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 12:08 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 13 March 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

Mr. Walker described what I posted as "descartian rubbish," and then, as far as I can tell, went ahead and said over much what I had said, so that it all puzzles me.  I thought I knew Descartes, but how all this is Cartesian goes over my head.

The "reality" of angels makes me wonder what is going on.  Are similar things to be said about ghosts and demons and whatnot -- that they are made of physical stuff?  If so it is stuff with odd properties.

Descartes philosophical viewpoint was that the only true thing we can be certain of existing is our "I". That is, the fact that we are conscious of self gives validity to the existence of self. To him all other things could not be proven to be real or hold objective indpendent existence Hence the summation, "I think, ergo I am"

As we have come to understnad evolution, human sapience and neurology etc. this pov has become a dangerous dead end as well as invallid A truer statement is "I am, ergo I can think," and then understand how and why and what we are, and how we came to be. Consciousnes is now demonstrably proven to be an evolved organic property of human biology, and our long evolutionary history, within a very real physical world.

To disbeleve this connection one has to be a form of creationist and believe consciousness spontaneously created itself and then all things around it. External reality came first, and consciousness a distant second. Hence all external reality exists indpendent of human level consciousness and thought. You can even take away a humans consciousness and their material body reamins real.

There are three potential view points First that of descartes. Second that of a newtonian reality, and third a  form of quantum reality

The second two both recognise the external and objective existence of physical things beyond our mind, they just differ on how we can understand, interpret, and interact with that reality

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#218    Heaven Is A Halfpipe

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 12:12 AM

The answer to that question is right in front of our eyes. Look to nature.

You can go the distance, you can run the mile and you can walk straight through HELL with a smile.

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#219    Mr Walker

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 12:17 AM

View PostSherapy, on 13 March 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

MW the premise of your argument is false, angels do not have a physical reality(if they did they would be able to be verified by valid means) therefore, your conclusion does not follow.

You are asking me to accept your angel has a physical reality based on your observational accuracy.

I accept that your angel has a subjective reality based on your world view. Not religious per say, but that you believe that you have an angel pal and you believe this is possible. It is very possible to think that things are real, people believe in all kinds of things. What ever works for you, go for it.

You see you are working on a mistaken premise. Angels do have physical reality and can indeed be proven to be real using the same techniques as we prove a chair or any other object to be real.

It is your construct of what an angel is that is flawed, perhaps because you have not as yet encountered such a physical entity.. You continue, perhaps kindlyand well meaningly, to insult my intelligence and rationality, if you think this is some kind of imaginary inner construct. You may think you are making a generous concession, but it is simply wrong to assume  something like that. Angels have the same physical and independent existence as you and I do.

Now, prove to me beyond doubt that you exist, using convincing transferrable evidences that I cannot dispute.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#220    Mr Walker

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 12:24 AM

View Postthird_eye, on 14 March 2013 - 12:06 AM, said:

define ground and you define the difference.
As it is 'ground' means nothing, regardless of our awareness or not, we could all die off the next minute but the ground is still what it ever was.
When we define 'the ground' we by applying our logic of reality , land , property, worth. value, ownership, borders ..... every one as solid as ideas and as independent but illusions nonetheless.
THe chair was never was, it is molded plastic, metal or wood shaped into a form we know as a 'chair'
Without us there would not be anything such as a chair, if we never endeared to the idea of chairs, we will just be sitting on the ground.

The answer is, there is no physical difference. Either every thing is real, or everything is merely a perception of reality. The chair is molded via our mind's imagination/creativity, abilty to extrapolate, etc., and our hand's manipulation, but it has no less inherent reality than the earth, which is molded by natural process of geology. The ground is no more, nor less, solid or immutable than the chair.

Ground and Chair are both  just english names for an entity, but naming something neither gives something reality nor detracts from its reality. It is just what humans do as part of their thought process, and abilty to communicate concepts, ideas and physical  things, with language. I can not only teach you the name of a chair but show you how to build one.

I can teach you what the ground is; its soil formation its rock types and their formation and geologic history. I can discuss different ways soil form under different conditions and talk about the weathering and erosion of the earth. I can tell you the differnt ages of rocks continents and soils. None of that alters their nature, or their reality. Nor does it do so for a human construct like a chair, or a stone pyramid, or a flint knife

Edited by Mr Walker, 14 March 2013 - 12:33 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#221    Sherapy

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 05:58 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 14 March 2013 - 12:17 AM, said:

You see you are working on a mistaken premise. Angels do have physical reality and can indeed be proven to be real using the same techniques as we prove a chair or any other object to be real.

It is your construct of what an angel is that is flawed, perhaps because you have not as yet encountered such a physical entity.. You continue, perhaps kindlyand well meaningly, to insult my intelligence and rationality, if you think this is some kind of imaginary inner construct. You may think you are making a generous concession, but it is simply wrong to assume  something like that. Angels have the same physical and independent existence as you and I do.

Now, prove to me beyond doubt that you exist, using convincing transferrable evidences that I cannot dispute.

Yes, we could use the same things to evidence angels if they had a physical reality, but they do not.

Your premise is based on an assumption (that angels have physical reality)-- that is the aspect that is false for me.


I am sorry that you find questioning and exploring your positions( or my positions) as an insult to your intelligence and rationality; this is not my intent. I see this as an opportunity to challenge my perspective, to refine my positions, to keep a growth mindset. In this situation where we have never spoken, I can see how easy it could be to misinterpret my intents. My intents are simply to look at your position and challenge the aspects of your argument that do not seem clear for me and vice versa and I must say you do get me thinking. This is not personal to you in any way. Please be assured there is no malice on my end. If there is anything I can do to frame my posts in a more neutral fashion, please let me know.

Edited by Sherapy, 14 March 2013 - 05:59 AM.




#222    Paranoid Android

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 06:50 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 14 March 2013 - 12:17 AM, said:

You see you are working on a mistaken premise. Angels do have physical reality and can indeed be proven to be real using the same techniques as we prove a chair or any other object to be real.
If that is the case, then why can I not scientifically analyse an angel in the same way as I can analyse a chair or a wall or a dog?  I can use scientific techniques to study these things, their composition, anatomy, social organisation.  I can dissect the corpse of a dog or observe it's social interaction in a herd-mentality, I can take a carbon sample from a chair, I can take a scrape of mortar from a brick wall.  If, as you say, angels can "indeed be proven to be real using the same techniques" as we prove these things, then why can't I do it with angels?


View PostMr Walker, on 14 March 2013 - 12:17 AM, said:

Now, prove to me beyond doubt that you exist, using convincing transferrable evidences that I cannot dispute.
If you were to take a plane trip to Sydney, you could visit me at my house, bring a microscope from your school and analyse a tissue sample of me.  You could interview me, examine my family lineage.  We could get an X-ray and I'm sure with Dr Brennan's (Bones) help you could decide that I am a Caucasian male in my early-mid 30's with Hypoplastic Sinuses.  You could conceivably do any other scientific test you wish to perform on me.

This is, of course, entirely hypothetical.  I know you aren't going to come to Sydney to analyse me, anymore than I'm going to go to WA to submit myself to analysis.  But the fact remains that if you were determined, you could do these things.  How can I go and study an angel?  The only way I can do that is to wait and hope that one presents itself to me as it has to you.  I can't find an angel colony to study, I can't go to an angel's house and take a tissue sample.  I can't interview one and ask about its experiences in the heavenly realm.  I can't X-ray one to find out its physiology.  No matter how much I want to do these things, I can only wait and hope I see one.

Surely you can see the difference in objectively proving I exist (or Sherapy, or whoever else you ask this question of) compared to proving an angel exists.  Contrary to assertion, you cannot use the same tools to analyse the existence of an angel as you can to analyse the existence of a person or a chair or a dog.

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Edited by Paranoid Android, 14 March 2013 - 12:53 PM.

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#223    Frank Merton

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 07:00 AM

Descartes tried to deduce the existence of "others" and of God from the certainty (he said) of "I."  Few think he succeeded, but he did not stop with just "I."


#224    GreenmansGod

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 11:58 AM

Descartes was a heartless b*****d, though.

Quote

In present day discussions on the practice of animal vivisection, it is normal to consider Descartes as an advocate of this practice, as a result of his dualistic philosophy. Some of the sources say that Descartes denied the animals could feel pain, and therefore could be used without concern.[31] Other sources consider that Descartes denied that animal had reason or intelligence, but did not lack sensations or perceptions, but these could be explained mechanistically.
http://en.wikipedia....René_Descartes


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#225    Frank Merton

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 01:43 PM

The idea that God created mankind separately "in his image" and breathed into him life (later read as giving him a soul) is what leads to this sort of absurdity -- that animals don't have souls and therefore aren't sentient.  Voltair's description of the public vivisection of a dog, the surgeon all the time saying that the animal doesn't feel pain, put this to proper ridicule.

There is a lot of mischief in Genesis, and perhaps this is one of the worst, along with the notion that we were given hegemony over the animals.  Yes, we do have a good deal of hegemony, but we were not given it, we have taken it.





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