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Thousands gather in Gaza for Hamas rally


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#16    MichaelW

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 11:30 PM

Even if it is rhetoric, Ex, there are probably those high up in Hamas who genuinely believe the content of that speech. You don't hear anything like that from Fatah now do you? Groups like Hamas are detrimental to the peace process in the region. Hence why the world chose to recognise the PNA. Because they don't threaten anyone.

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#17    ExpandMyMind

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 11:36 PM

I agree with all you say except the part about peace process.

I don't believe there is one. Not truly.


#18    Yamato

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 11:40 PM

Fatah's relative superiority to Hamas/MB/Hezbollah isn't preventing Fatah territory from being gobbled up or their people being treated like cattle.  As if, if the region could only work just like the West Bank, then there could be peace?   How dare I suggest Palestinians fight for their freedom?

Puleez, Zion.

Fighting against tyranny and oppression is the best justification for war that ever existed.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
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#19    and then

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 01:17 AM

View PostExpandMyMind, on 08 December 2012 - 09:44 PM, said:

So has the Israeli government and many Israeli people but it does not mean there are not factions and elements within both organisations that do want peace.
This is true but in Israel those people do not vote with a gun.  And they are a fringe in the politics of the nation.  Their opposites in Hamas DO vote with guns and it doesn't take many votes to have a "super majority".  My point is that as long as violent men can stop any chance of peace and the world keeps blindly supporting them then the result can hardly be expected to be peaceful.  And if Israel acceded ONLY to the issue of right of return then the State would cease to exist as anything more than just another Islamic State.  Unless of course Israel actually DID become Apartheid in reality.  Netanyahu made it very clear in his address before the US congress that right of return for refugees was NEVER going to happen.

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#20    Erikl

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 10:45 AM

IMO, Israel should annex Judea and Samaria (aka West Bank), and in a gradual process, give full citizenship to all it's inhabitants. It might take few years, or decades, but eventually that's the only sane solution.

Any Palestinian state that shall be created in the West Bank will be taken over by MB (in it's Palestinian branch - aka Hamas) and will result in ballistic ranging of Israel's economic center, thus will bring about the end of Israel as a normal western country and will probably result in a much worse conflict.

It has nothing to do with the Palestinians, it's the current trend of Islamization in the region. Abbas represents the old nationalistic, pan-Arabist regimes, while Hamas represents Islamism, which is on the rise in the region.

Thus, any retreat on Israel's behalf will result in the growth in popularity of Hamas and other extremists on the Palestinian side.

As an Israeli, with an Israeli Palestinian for a boss in the company I work for, I can say that the only Arab population Jews seem to have peace with are the Israeli ones. Thus the real end of this conflict is the annexation and naturalization of the Arab population in the West Bank and the historical homeland of Jews - Judea.

The Gaza Strip is already lost to Islamic radicalism and should either stay in it's Somalia-like situtation, or be taken under the patronage of it's big brother - MB-rulled Egypt.

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#21    and then

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 12:32 PM

View PostErikl, on 09 December 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:

IMO, Israel should annex Judea and Samaria (aka West Bank), and in a gradual process, give full citizenship to all it's inhabitants. It might take few years, or decades, but eventually that's the only sane solution.

Any Palestinian state that shall be created in the West Bank will be taken over by MB (in it's Palestinian branch - aka Hamas) and will result in ballistic ranging of Israel's economic center, thus will bring about the end of Israel as a normal western country and will probably result in a much worse conflict.

It has nothing to do with the Palestinians, it's the current trend of Islamization in the region. Abbas represents the old nationalistic, pan-Arabist regimes, while Hamas represents Islamism, which is on the rise in the region.

Thus, any retreat on Israel's behalf will result in the growth in popularity of Hamas and other extremists on the Palestinian side.

As an Israeli, with an Israeli Palestinian for a boss in the company I work for, I can say that the only Arab population Jews seem to have peace with are the Israeli ones. Thus the real end of this conflict is the annexation and naturalization of the Arab population in the West Bank and the historical homeland of Jews - Judea.

The Gaza Strip is already lost to Islamic radicalism and should either stay in it's Somalia-like situtation, or be taken under the patronage of it's big brother - MB-rulled Egypt.
But wouldn't the numbers of new non Jewish residents tip the balance demographically?  And I imagine even the MB would be loathe to take on caring for the welfare State that is Gaza.  The thugs of Hamas will never have a shortage of people willing to supply guns and rockets but the drain of feeding the people will be left to the West.

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#22    Erikl

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 01:29 PM

View Postand then, on 09 December 2012 - 12:32 PM, said:

But wouldn't the numbers of new non Jewish residents tip the balance demographically?

Not quite.

First of all, I know many in Israel, especially on the left, like to scare us of the demographic bomb.

Even some on the right have gave in to such bigotry.

While indeed, should Jews become a minority in their country with a hostile Palestinian majority, a genocide will occur, I think a Jewish majority with a big Palestinian minority can thrive quite peacefully.

Ofcourse it cannot happen over night, and as has been done in the case of Nazi Germany, de-Jihadization will have to take place after decades of systematic hateful progpaganda by the PA regime, but even after annexation (solely of the West Bank), Jews still today make up a majority with more than 60%. Demographic trends seem to point out that Jewish and Muslim natural growth are the same, with Muslim in the more developed West Bank have lower natural growth and Jews' average natural growth in Israel is rising.

But regardless of it all, Israel is also a democracy, not only a Jewish-majority state. And I believe this is the democratic, honest thing to do, and the only solution to this long, on going conflict.

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#23    MichaelW

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 11:04 PM

View PostExpandMyMind, on 08 December 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:

I agree with all you say except the part about peace process.

I don't believe there is one. Not truly.

There won't be until Hamas realises that keeping its military brigades under control and actually doing something productive with Israel. Yes, certain other members claim that Fatah's territory is being gobbled up, but the latest rounds of new settlements in East Jerusalem were mere punishment for the world's recognition of them as a state. Bibi's days as the helmsman of Israel are numbered.

Edited by MichaelW, 09 December 2012 - 11:05 PM.

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