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‘Get Over It’: Climate Change Is Happening


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#241    regeneratia

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 02:18 PM

While you are on one side of the issue and I sit on the fence between the two, I just have to say that you rock. You are amazing. Off topic so answer in PM: Did you see the recently-released reseach on the tree rings telling much more than the age of the trees? Of course, you know that already.

OK, first of all, research affecting both sides  of this debate. I first read about it in Scientific American: MIND. Just did a search for it here and used the first one available.
http://www.startribu...01.html?refer=y
Big science, big pressure, big misconduct? Study finds increase in fraud in research journals
  • Article by: SETH BORENSTEIN , Associated Press
  • Updated: October 2, 2012 - 7:01 PM
Recent greenland ice findings: a report:
http://www.redorbit....an-made-100412/
Tracking Methane – Emissions Traced All The Way Back To Roman Times


Meaning that if this report is true, that the greenhouse gas increases weren't just in the last 200 years, but went back as far as two thousand years where greenhouse gasses rose dramatically, then fell after 200 years. Wonder what fossily fuels they were burning then? It could have been coal.

OK,  I will try and repond to all your points, even tho I have not had my coffee or tea yet. Tea, I think, this morning. No, coffee.

OK facts: Even if you personally have had your hands on original productions, it will still be a report to me when you tell it to me, since I personally do not have those originals in my own hand. However, if there is one person I trust to tell something closer to truth, it would be you.

Is it true that increasing temps will cause more tree growth? I have seen conflicting data on that. One saying that the warmer temps encourages more tree groth and new starts. While the other data says that warmer temps kill trees.
Is it like the case in yellowstone where they found that the fire was better long term for the overall health of the forests. I have been there twice since the fire. Since I am a photo nut, the photos regarding the two year span shows dramatic changes. Of course, the visits were different times of the year as well. This year, the snow was still on the ground. Again, feedback loops are super-important.

Jeez, I would love to know what you find regarding winter snow storms and tree growth. Would be good to know to maintain our glorious shelterbelts back on the farm, , one half a mile long and six rows deep, where it is now said is home to elk.

Wasn't there a mini-iace age somewhere around that time where people could walk across the Thames? I went to look and found what they think lead up to that mini-ice-age:

Ah come on, eureka-alert is a research embargo site. It is where the news gets it's news. I don't think you can dismiss euraka or alpha so readily. If you are waiting for publications to put them out, good luck. I have the news before you.

I am a huge fan of peer review. Checks and balances. Fuzzy math is everywhere. Too bad our banks aren't peer reviewed.

I agree. Truth is not absolute. That is why I sit on the fence regarding anthropomorphic climate change. The sun reaches solar climax next year. Then I may well lean one way or the other. What I do know is what is happening to my own tree here in the yard. I can water them during the drought. But solar flare after solar flare wilts their leaves.

And I am someone who has been successful in growing bananas in Kansas, with up to 60 plants at one time. This year, I let some of them die off because it would have been quite a struggle to keep them alive during solar max. I mean, far more of a struggle than diggin them up in the fall, storing them inside, and planting them again in the spring.





View PostDoug1o29, on 03 October 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

This is no surprise.

That would depend on the "facts."  I have physical possession of the entire core collection that produced the Ouachita Chronology (I was the one who wrote that "report;"  publication pending.).  My "report" is a peer-reviewed research article.  I have personally examined the original cores from the McCurtain County, Lake Winona, Hot Springs and Drury House Chronologies, the data from which is available at NASA's tree ring website.  The "facts" derived from these are lists of ring-width measurements and observations of microscopic wood anatomy, such as fire scars, frost rings and weather-induced false rings.  My article is merely descriptive of the chronology.  It summarizes the quality of the dataset and does not attempt any analyses.  Are these "facts?"

Two additional papers I am now working on will analyze that data to determine a means of identifying major winter storms from the forest's growth response.  That involves some statistical analyses and interpretation.  The method I developed works with 85 to 100% accuracy, but does not actually get to 100% (almost, but not quite).  Are these "facts?"

One of those papers will be a tree-ring record of severe storms and some droughts going back to 1750.  This was Choctaw territory at that time.  France still claimed it, but the Choctaws had possession of the land.  Some of the storms I have identified match up with Indian legends, such as the "Resting Summer" of 1855, the "Noahkian Flood" of 1862, the "Snow Winter" of 1881 and the great storm of 1886.  The more-recent ones match up with Weather Bureau and National Weather Service data.  And there are many storms I cannot match to any record, mostly because that far back, there are no records.  Are these "facts?"  At any rate, my records are more complete and before 1959, more accurate than the National Weather Sevice.  Again, these will be peer-reviewed papers and will be submitted for review this fall.

I do not have direct experience of "the Mother of All El Ninos" which occurred in 1791 and 1792, but they show up in my tree-ring records.  But I can look at the tree rings affected and see the result (The widest rings in the whole chronology.).  The important thing in tree ring research is that somewhere somebody has the original cores and you can go back to those and double-check his work.  Also, you can go into the woods, increment borer in hand, and collect your own sample.  The work can be replicated if someone is so inclined.

Also, you can compare your results with what other people are getting.  Don't put all your faith in one paper.  Dave Stahle (tree ring and climate researher) reports that 1833 was the wettest year on record for the American South.  That's not what my rings show:  I show 1791 and 1792 tied for that honor; I show 1833 as a perfectly-ordinary year.  Why the difference?  Speculation:  maybe it's because my datasets come from farther west, on the edge of the Great Plains.  This location may be more sensitive to El Nino effects.  Further research will be needed to determine the cause.  Some graduate student has his work cut out for him.

That's why we post our sources.  In research, only peer-reviewed material is acceptable (Well, I once referred to a comment in an unjuried book by a distinguished researcher.).  Not even a poster presented at a professional meeting is acceptable because it is not peer-reviewed (But a peer-reviewed extended abstract based on that poster is acceptable.).

The links you have posted are to popular-literature sites. Those don't cut it in research.

You will notice that most research articles are loaded with caveats.  That's because we never know Absolute Truth.  However tiny the risk of error, it is always there and something we must live with.  This is so well known that even when it is not expressed, it is assumed.

Research papers are the best information available.  Most are written in the format:  This is what I did.  This is what I observed.  This is what I think is the cause.  They do not actually say what Ultimate Truth may be.  It is very obvious what the author's opinion is, but the reader must make up his own mind.  If he's wrong, he then takes personal responsibility for the mistake; you can't blame it on the author you're quoting.

And there is no such thing as "proof" in science.  All you will ever get is science's best current understanding.  That understanding is tentative pending the outcome of future studies.  THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PROOF.

That's because they are more willing to accept mistakes than NOAA is.  It takes time to check your material and some people aren't willing to take the time.

Junk these sites (the ones you posted, as well as UM).  Read the research.  Do your own research.  Then make up your own mind.  That's how it's supposed to be done.
Doug


Edited by regeneratia, 04 October 2012 - 02:33 PM.

Truth is such a rare quality, a stranger so seldom met in this civilization of fraud, that it is never received freely, but must fight its way into the world
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(quote from THE BIBLE FRAUD)

Robert Heinlein: SECRECY IS THE HALLMARK OF TYRANNY!

#242    regeneratia

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 02:37 PM

The clowns on this site have run off too many posters. I know of a few. They are not worth the time. I generally put them on ignore. People know who they are. But in many ways, I could be considered one of them too.
I think eurekalert is a good site. Been using it since the mid-ninties. Alphagalileo, I don't check that often. And I do see agendas in things like Red Orbit, new Scienetist, and Scienfitic American, so I no longer subscribe to the latter two.



View PostDoug1o29, on 04 October 2012 - 03:14 AM, said:

I have been accused on UM (not by you) of not being objective because I did not accept a weird idea that some denialist came up with.  What that person didn't realize is that I had studied that very topic several years earlier and reached the opposite conclusion.  We keep hearing the same invalid arguments over and over and then get accused of bot being objective when we reject them for the fortieth time.  Denialists really need to come up with something to support their ideas.

Ever tried to "cook the books" in a way that won't be detected?  Gregor Mendel - remember him? - the monk with the pea garden who discovered genetics - cooked his books.  It was a probability study that caught him - his own numbers betrayed him.  He was right, but for the wrong reasons.  Just for entertainment:  off the top of your head try to write down a list of 100 random numbers between one and ten.  Bet you can't do it.  PM me with your list and I'll test it for you - or test it yourself.  I have several dozen statistical tests to detect dry labbing by my field crews.
Doug


Truth is such a rare quality, a stranger so seldom met in this civilization of fraud, that it is never received freely, but must fight its way into the world
Professor Hilton Hotema
(quote from THE BIBLE FRAUD)

Robert Heinlein: SECRECY IS THE HALLMARK OF TYRANNY!

#243    regeneratia

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 03:16 PM

There really are good things about the green party. Jill Stein is one of them.
And their protest of this is absolutely great too. This issue is underpublished. Mainstream media is failing us yet again!!!

http://www.enewspf.c...rship-pact.html









US Green Party Signs International Green Statement Against 'Secret' Trans-Pacific Partnership Pact

Truth is such a rare quality, a stranger so seldom met in this civilization of fraud, that it is never received freely, but must fight its way into the world
Professor Hilton Hotema
(quote from THE BIBLE FRAUD)

Robert Heinlein: SECRECY IS THE HALLMARK OF TYRANNY!

#244    regeneratia

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 03:22 PM

Public release date: 9-Jul-2012
http://www.eurekaler...m-cin070912.php
Johannes Gutenberg Universitaet Mainz
Climate in northern Europe reconstructed for the past 2,000 years

The calculations prepared by Mainz scientists will also influence the way current climate change is perceived - Publication of results in Nature Climate Change

An international team that includes scientists from Johannes Gutenberg University Mainz (JGU) has published a reconstruction of the climate in northern Europe over the last 2,000 years based on the information provided by tree-rings. Professor Dr. Jan Esper's group at the Institute of Geography at JGU used tree-ring density measurements from sub-fossil pine trees originating from Finnish Lapland to produce a reconstruction reaching back to 138 BC. In so doing, the researchers have been able for the first time to precisely demonstrate that the long-term trend over the past two millennia has been towards climatic cooling. "We found that previous estimates of historical temperatures during the Roman era and the Middle Ages were too low," says Esper. "Such findings are also significant with regard to climate policy, as they will influence the way today's climate changes are seen in context of historical warm periods." The new study has been published in the journal "Nature Climate Change".


Public release date: 7-Aug-2012, http://www.eurekaler...u-dtn080712.php
Yale University
Diseased trees new source of climate gas

Diseased trees in forests may be a significant new source of methane that causes climate change, according to researchers at the Yale School of Forestry & Environmental Studies in Geophysical Research Letters.
-----------------
Solutions I believe will be the biggest influence.

Public release date: 27-Jan-2010
http://www.eurekaler...s-stc012710.php
University of Southampton
Solutions to climate change: Using trees and grasses to capture carbon and produce energy

Greenhouse gas carbon dioxide ramps up aspen growth
... MADISON — The rising level of atmospheric carbon dioxide may be fueling more than climate change. It could also be making ... could also be making some trees grow like crazy. ... most important and widespread deciduous trees.
http://www.eurekaler...w-ggc120109.php- 9.2KB - Public Press Releases
I love the University of Wisc. Madison. What a great college!!



Public release date: 16-Nov-2009
National Science Foundation http://www.eurekaler...f-gsi111309.php
Growth spurt in tree rings prompts questions about climate change

Recent growth in the rings of bristlecone pines in the western U.S. points to warmer temperatures at treeline

The researchers studied bristlecone pines (Pinus longaeva) at three sites in California and Nevada, close to the upper elevation limit of tree growth. The tree-ring record showed wider rings in recent decades, indicating a surge in growth in the second half of the 20th century that was greater than at any time in the last 3,700 years.
"We've got a pretty strong pointer that temperature plays a part in this," said Malcolm Hughes in describing the work. "So the puzzle is, why does it play a part in it for the trees near the treeline and not for those only 300, 400 feet lower down the mountain than them?"

Edited by regeneratia, 04 October 2012 - 03:32 PM.

Truth is such a rare quality, a stranger so seldom met in this civilization of fraud, that it is never received freely, but must fight its way into the world
Professor Hilton Hotema
(quote from THE BIBLE FRAUD)

Robert Heinlein: SECRECY IS THE HALLMARK OF TYRANNY!

#245    Br Cornelius

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 03:55 PM

It is well established that the long term trend was one of cooling - which is what makes the sudden and dramatic upclick in recent times so significant.
You are right to point out that man has been influencing climate for the last 2000 yrs. i say all the evidence points to man influencing the climate for at least 8000yrs. This is predominantly through land use change which meant that vast areas of land were gradually transformed from forest to agriculture - with most of the wood been burnt off. This has atmospheric effects but predominantly works to alter albedo. Agriculture also release significant amounts of carbon which was previously sequestered in the soil.

None of the studies you point to significantly change the issue of anthropogenic climate change, they are simply more refinement.

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#246    Doug1o29

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 04:32 PM

View Postregeneratia, on 04 October 2012 - 02:18 PM, said:

Did you see the recently-released reseach on the tree rings telling much more than the age of the trees?
We've been learning that tree rings record a lot of things.  Everything from the arrival of European earthworms in the north woods to the mix of fungi that live on the bark, to severe winter storms, to droughts, to temperature changes.  At U. of Arkansas they determined that the trees used for the roof were still growing in the woods four years after the history books say Old Main was finished.  Water levels in the Colorado River, the "seven years of famine" that the biblical Joseph dealt with (It was more like four years.), the explosion of Thera/Santorini, the fall of the Egyptian Thirteenth Dynasty, Tamboura and the "Year Without a Summer" - all reflected in tree rings.  Maybe even Noah's Flood - didn't cover the whole world, but it affected tree ring widths across the globe.

Quote

OK, first of all, research affecting both sides  of this debate. I first read about it in Scientific American: MIND. Just did a search for it here and used the first one available.
http://www.startribu...01.html?refer=y
Big science, big pressure, big misconduct? Study finds increase in fraud in research journals
  • Article by: SETH BORENSTEIN , Associated Press
  • Updated: October 2, 2012 - 7:01 PM
Scholastic misconduct usually ends the career of the perpetrator.  Not something you want to get caught doing.  Even lying under oath doesn't usually result in firing.

Quote

Recent greenland ice findings: a report:
http://www.redorbit....an-made-100412/
Tracking Methane – Emissions Traced All The Way Back To Roman Times


Meaning that if this report is true, that the greenhouse gas increases weren't just in the last 200 years, but went back as far as two thousand years where greenhouse gasses rose dramatically, then fell after 200 years. Wonder what fossily fuels they were burning then? It could have been coal.
Methane is released by many natural processes.  Whenever we get a warm period (C. 250-400 AD), methane release from the oceans and tundras increases.  That would happen whether there were people on earth or not.  Methane has a residence time in the atmosphere of about ten years before it oxidizes to CO2, so it doesn't hang around.  It is a more-powerful greenhouse gas than CO2, but it is also more easily dealt with.

Quote

OK facts: Even if you personally have had your hands on original productions, it will still be a report to me when you tell it to me, since I personally do not have those originals in my own hand. However, if there is one person I trust to tell something closer to truth, it would be you.
How about if I post the article when it is accepted for publication?  Then you would have the document, or a pdf file of it.  Would it be "facts" then?  How about if you came down, borrowed my "lab" and re-read the cores yourself?  Would those then be "facts?"  How about if you repeated my analysis and/or did your own?  Would the result be "facts?"

Quote

Is it true that increasing temps will cause more tree growth? I have seen conflicting data on that. One saying that the warmer temps encourages more tree groth and new starts. While the other data says that warmer temps kill trees.
Depends on the species.  I work with shortleaf pine.  Not very temperature-sensitive.  There are better species, like oaks, that show temperature changes better.  I have done some rough-and-dirty temperature-change calculations from my own data sets, but nothing that I'd care to publish - shortleaf pine works, but not very well.

If a tree is living on a site close to the limits of what it can tolerate, then any change in site conditions - more precip, less precip, warmer temps, cooler temps - will have an effect.  If the change moves the tree toward the limit, the growth ring gets narrower; if it moves it away from the limit, it gets wider.  Trees in the middle of the susceptibility range may be rather unresponsive to any change.

The pines are more sensitive to CO2 fertilization than they are to temperature.  They're much better at recording CO2 levels.

Quote

Jeez, I would love to know what you find regarding winter snow storms and tree growth. Would be good to know to maintain our glorious shelterbelts back on the farm, , one half a mile long and six rows deep, where it is now said is home to elk.
I'll post the reference when it's published.  Can't do it before then without violating copyrights.  Also, the first-of-four is still in peer review and the rest haven't been submitted yet.

Quote

Wasn't there a mini-iace age somewhere around that time where people could walk across the Thames? I went to look and found what they think lead up to that mini-ice-age:
Yes there was.  Called the Little Ice Age.  Apparently caused by a combination of reduced solar irradiance and aerosols from volcanoes.  Lots of the deniers try to claim it was caused by solar irradiance and that volcanoes didn't have anything to do with it.  Takes statistics to show that BOTH were involved.

Quote

Ah come on, eureka-alert is a research embargo site. It is where the news gets it's news. I don't think you can dismiss euraka or alpha so readily. If you are waiting for publications to put them out, good luck. I have the news before you.
Having been at some "newsworthy events" and then read about them in the newspapers left me wondering if the reporter and I had been at the same place.  I'm not impressed with popular writing - it's good brain candy, but it's also loaded with mistakes.  So you may have it first, but I prefer it right.

Quote

The sun reaches solar climax next year. Then I may well lean one way or the other.
Lot of us waiting for that.  Should be ineteresting.  We may be headed into a solar minimum.  That should be interesting too.

Quote

And I am someone who has been successful in growing bananas in Kansas, with up to 60 plants at one time. This year, I let some of them die off because it would have been quite a struggle to keep them alive during solar max. I mean, far more of a struggle than diggin them up in the fall, storing them inside, and planting them again in the spring.
I'm going up to Wichita next week.  What part of Kansas are you from?  I heard Toto got tired of waiting, took the shoes and went home.  That's why Dorothy had to have a balloon ride.
Doug

If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants. --Bernard de Chartres
The beginning of knowledge is the realization that one doesn't and cannot know everything.
Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#247    Doug1o29

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 05:10 PM

View Postregeneratia, on 04 October 2012 - 03:22 PM, said:

Public release date: 9-Jul-2012
http://www.eurekaler...m-cin070912.php
Johannes Gutenberg Universitaet Mainz
Climate in northern Europe reconstructed for the past 2,000 years

The calculations prepared by Mainz scientists will also influence the way current climate change is perceived - Publication of results in Nature Climate Change

An international team that includes scientists from Johannes Gutenberg University Mainz (JGU) has published a reconstruction of the climate in northern Europe over the last 2,000 years based on the information provided by tree-rings. Professor Dr. Jan Esper's group at the Institute of Geography at JGU used tree-ring density measurements from sub-fossil pine trees originating from Finnish Lapland to produce a reconstruction reaching back to 138 BC. In so doing, the researchers have been able for the first time to precisely demonstrate that the long-term trend over the past two millennia has been towards climatic cooling. "We found that previous estimates of historical temperatures during the Roman era and the Middle Ages were too low," says Esper. "Such findings are also significant with regard to climate policy, as they will influence the way today's climate changes are seen in context of historical warm periods." The new study has been published in the journal "Nature Climate Change".
Fine-tuning the system.  The long-term trend has been down, but look at what happened since 1908!  It took only ninety years to recover the entire drop during the previous 800 years.  Sea level changes are a good way to monitor climate.  During cooler periods, glaciers grew, taking up water and dropping sea levels,  During warmer periods they melted and raised sea levels.

Richard Guyette at the Univeristy of Missouri is trying to assemble a chronology that goes all the way back to the ice age.  He's doing it by taking samples from tree trunks that wash out of cut banks along rivers.  If you like to play in the mud, this is the job for you.  His first project will be a re-creation of El Nino events for the past 12,000 years.

Quote

Public release date: 7-Aug-2012, http://www.eurekaler...u-dtn080712.php
Yale University
Diseased trees new source of climate gas

Diseased trees in forests may be a significant new source of methane that causes climate change, according to researchers at the Yale School of Forestry & Environmental Studies in Geophysical Research Letters.
I wouldn't call it new.  Those Yalies are just now figuring it out.  I once took a core from a hollow white oak.  The gas pressure inside shot the core out like a bullet.  I decided to light the jet to see what happened.  Got and eight-inch long flame.  I claim the mineral rights on this one!  Decay often creates gas pockets inside trees.  I doubt that there has been any significant change in methane production from this source since forever.  If anything, it has decreased do to the cutting of old-growth forests where this phenomenon is most common.

Quote

-----------------
Solutions I believe will be the biggest influence.

Public release date: 27-Jan-2010
http://www.eurekaler...s-stc012710.php
University of Southampton
Solutions to climate change: Using trees and grasses to capture carbon and produce energy
Trees only work because they increase sequestration of soil carbon in the form of roots, fungi, worms and other organisms that like forests and grasslands.  But there is only so much area that can be dedictaed to forests and grasslands and when the stand reaches maturity, growth and carbon sequestration stop.  Reforestation can help, but it's not the solution to the problem.

Quote


Greenhouse gas carbon dioxide ramps up aspen growth
... MADISON — The rising level of atmospheric carbon dioxide may be fueling more than climate change. It could also be making ... could also be making some trees grow like crazy. ... most important and widespread deciduous trees.
Aspens are highly-sensitive to diseases, especially bark cankers that flourish under warming conditions.  Aspens in the west are in serious trouble because of warming and will not be contributing either building materials or sequestering carbon for much longer.  It is feared that Clone Pando, the oldest known living thing, may not survive the warmer conditions it is now faced with.

Quote


http://www.eurekaler...w-ggc120109.php- 9.2KB - Public Press Releases
I love the University of Wisc. Madison. What a great college!!
They're probably right about one thing - Wisconsin is cool enough that warming isn't bothering their aspens, yet.

Quote

Public release date: 16-Nov-2009
National Science Foundation http://www.eurekaler...f-gsi111309.php
Growth spurt in tree rings prompts questions about climate change

Recent growth in the rings of bristlecone pines in the western U.S. points to warmer temperatures at treeline

The researchers studied bristlecone pines (Pinus longaeva) at three sites in California and Nevada, close to the upper elevation limit of tree growth. The tree-ring record showed wider rings in recent decades, indicating a surge in growth in the second half of the 20th century that was greater than at any time in the last 3,700 years.
"We've got a pretty strong pointer that temperature plays a part in this," said Malcolm Hughes in describing the work. "So the puzzle is, why does it play a part in it for the trees near the treeline and not for those only 300, 400 feet lower down the mountain than them?"
Good question.  Malcolm's next research project?

Don't expect trees to absorb the extra CO2 being put out by people.  There simply aren't enough of them to get the job done.  Their capacity is limited.

A new phenomenon called the "divergence problem" has cropped up in dendrochronology.  It appears that since the 1980s trees world-wide have become decoupled from temperature.  The correlations between ring-width and temps are getting progressively weaker.  Speculation is that extra CO2 in the air is the culprit.

Part of the problem is that we don't have enough good data sets taken since the 1980s to provide information.  So people like me are running around the woods, increment borers at the ready.  Anyway, just as we are getting good climate data from instruments, we are losing our ability to correlate it with old-growth trees.  The solution is probably hidden in the statistics - here we go again!
Doug

If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants. --Bernard de Chartres
The beginning of knowledge is the realization that one doesn't and cannot know everything.
Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#248    Little Fish

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 11:18 PM

Posted Image

Quote

It is well established that the long term trend was one of cooling - which is what makes the sudden and dramatic upclick in recent times so significant.
the "sudden and dramatic uptick in recent times" is seen at the right side of the graph, and occurs all the time as can be seen from the ice core data above.

Edited by Little Fish, 04 October 2012 - 11:23 PM.


#249    Doug1o29

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 11:52 PM

View PostLittle Fish, on 04 October 2012 - 11:18 PM, said:

Posted Image


the "sudden and dramatic uptick in recent times" is seen at the right side of the graph, and occurs all the time as can be seen from the ice core data above.
Your chart is labeled "GISP2".  It's an ice core from Greenland and shows temps at one place in Greenland.  It is NOT a chart of global temps.  It does not reflect GLOBAL temps.  This post is deliberately misleading.

I am at a loss to know why you even posted it as it does not relate to anything currently under discussion - even the rambling one we've been having.
Doug

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#250    Little Fish

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 11:59 PM

View PostDoug1o29, on 04 October 2012 - 11:52 PM, said:

Your chart is labeled "GISP2".  It's an ice core from Greenland and shows temps at one place in Greenland.  It is NOT a chart of global temps.  It does not reflect GLOBAL temps.  This post is deliberately misleading.
how would you measure ancient "global temperature"?

Quote

I am at a loss to know why you even posted it as it does not relate to anything currently under discussion - even the rambling one we've been having.
Doug
next time I post, I'll be sure to run it by you for approval.


#251    MID

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 12:43 AM

View Postregeneratia, on 04 October 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:

The clowns on this site have run off too many posters. I know of a few. They are not worth the time. I generally put them on ignore. People know who they are. But in many ways, I could be considered one of them too.
I think eurekalert is a good site. Been using it since the mid-ninties. Alphagalileo, I don't check that often. And I do see agendas in things like Red Orbit, new Scienetist, and Scienfitic American, so I no longer subscribe to the latter two.

Yes, New Scientist and Scientific  American are two very similar, but different things than they were years ago.  I've seen graphic examples of "attitude", in Scientific American especially.  Enough that I cancelled my susbscription immediately.


#252    regeneratia

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 05:42 AM

I have been using "anthropomorphic" wrong. My intent was to say "anthropogenic". I got the two words confused. I sure hope you didn't and spotted my repeated mistake right away. No one corrected me on it. If they did, I most likely didn't read their post. Hmmm! Self-correction is necessary.

Anyway, this is the research that led me to see my continued mistake, and to add to the plethoa of information that leads me to sit on the fence regarding this issue:


http://www.news.vcu....facing_in_Lakes
Researchers Find Ancient Carbon Resurfacing in Lakes


Findings challenge current models of long-term carbon storage in lakes and rivers


"It is well established that bacteria in northern waters process carbon from their terrestrial surroundings. But the findings from Virginia Commonwealth University in Richmond, Va., and Université du Québec à Montréal in Montreal, Canada, challenge the widely held belief that older carbon sources are not available to bacteria and have been largely removed from the carbon feedback loop between earth and air."

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#253    regeneratia

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 05:47 AM

View PostMID, on 05 October 2012 - 12:43 AM, said:

Yes, New Scientist and Scientific  American are two very similar, but different things than they were years ago.  I've seen graphic examples of "attitude", in Scientific American especially.  Enough that I cancelled my susbscription immediately.

Me too, regarding the spotting of slant in Scientific American, tho they deny it is there when you tell them about it.
Then I bought for five years New Scientist. Since it takes a serious act of some Congress to get the hard copy these days, I finally put them down for good. Am without a hard copy science mag subscription these days, so sad to say. I still store the old copies. But New Scinetist has a slant too. It is selectivein what it prints. And it is all about man-made or anthropogenic (I got it right this time) climate change. So I let the subscription lapse.

Truth is such a rare quality, a stranger so seldom met in this civilization of fraud, that it is never received freely, but must fight its way into the world
Professor Hilton Hotema
(quote from THE BIBLE FRAUD)

Robert Heinlein: SECRECY IS THE HALLMARK OF TYRANNY!

#254    Doug1o29

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 12:40 PM

View PostLittle Fish, on 04 October 2012 - 11:59 PM, said:

how would you measure ancient "global temperature"?
The same way we measure global temps during modern times:  gridded spatially-corrected averages.  There is a problem with very ancient proxies, like ice cores:  there aren't very many of them and they don't give coverage everywhere.  In that case, develop a model that uses ice core data from modern times to predict modern temperate zone temps.  Then extend that to ancient times.  It's done with instrumental data and with tree ring data.  There's no reason it shouldn't work with ice core data.
Doug

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The beginning of knowledge is the realization that one doesn't and cannot know everything.
Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#255    Doug1o29

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 12:44 PM

View PostMID, on 05 October 2012 - 12:43 AM, said:

Yes, New Scientist and Scientific  American are two very similar, but different things than they were years ago.  I've seen graphic examples of "attitude", in Scientific American especially.  Enough that I cancelled my susbscription immediately.
These two publications are not scientific journals.  They are popular press magazines.  Their material is not juried.  They may fairly be considered editorials.  And I let my subscription to Scientific American lapse.  I will not be renewing it.

I used to get New Scientist, too.  I don't any more and I really don't remember why.  Apparently I found their material so exciting I just forgot to renew.
Doug

If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants. --Bernard de Chartres
The beginning of knowledge is the realization that one doesn't and cannot know everything.
Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott




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