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Atlantis was in West Africa

diodorus amazons lybia atlantis west africa

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#46    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 07:21 PM

View PostHarte, on 16 November 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

No need, you selectively repeated diodorus siculus enough.

What you've left out is that the people Siculus referred to as Atlantians in those passages were the people living around Mount Atlas in the Atlas Mountain range of North Africa.  He states this in his description of the area surrounding the marsh that was the Amazons' home:

IBID 3.53.4

These people were the same ones written about by Herodotus hundreds of years earlier and are not even similar to what Plato described:

Herodotus' "Histories," Book 4 184

Hence, that's not Plato's Atlantis.

Harte

As mythology relates....so he connected mythology to it. But he doesnt state that is mythology when he say that Amazons attack Atlanteans.

From your quote of Herodotus:

Atlantians; and it is said that they neither eat anything that has life nor have any dreams.


Text Santi Parva spoke about Atala white island with white men who never have to sleep or eat.
Imagine that.

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#47    Harte

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 08:38 PM

View Postthe L, on 16 November 2012 - 07:14 PM, said:

Earth is moving around Sun therfore Atlantis didnt exist.
What kind of argument is that Greeks used Greek words before Plato. That isnt what my evidence indicates.
My evidence indicates what Greek Historian wrote. That Amazons attack Atlanteans.
250 years after Plato, Siculus wrote some junk.

Your posted pic of the Greek writing - it comes from the Histories I quoted - only indicates that the Greeks used Greek words before Plato - words like Atlantis which actually means coming from, having to do with, or of, Atlas.

Herodotus says nothing about Atlantis.  He mentions a sea with the name "The Sea of Atlas."

Leaving it in the Greek instead of translating it doesn't change the fact.

Harte

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#48    Harte

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 08:40 PM

View Postthe L, on 16 November 2012 - 07:21 PM, said:

As mythology relates....so he connected mythology to it. But he doesnt state that is mythology when he say that Amazons attack Atlanteans.

From your quote of Herodotus:

Atlantians; and it is said that they neither eat anything that has life nor have any dreams.


Text Santi Parva spoke about Atala white island with white men who never have to sleep or eat.
Imagine that.
I'm fully aware of Atala, one of the seven heavens (all called Atala, collectively) in the Hindu underworld.

There is no "white island" in Hindu reality.

Unless you also believe in a Sea of Milk.  Literal Milk.

Harte

Edited by Harte, 16 November 2012 - 08:40 PM.

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#49    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 11:05 PM

View PostHarte, on 16 November 2012 - 08:38 PM, said:

Herodotus says nothing about Atlantis.  He mentions a sea with the name "The Sea of Atlas."


Herodotus:

Atlantians; and it is said that they neither eat anything that has life nor have any dreams.

From link you provided.


View PostHarte, on 16 November 2012 - 08:38 PM, said:

250 years after Plato, Siculus wrote some junk.

Because that doesnt fit in your view its junk.

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#50    Orcseeker

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 11:11 PM

I love seeing these threads on UM titled with unsubstantiated definitives.

Edited by Orcseeker, 16 November 2012 - 11:11 PM.


#51    docyabut2

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 03:12 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 16 November 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

The Atlantis story exists nowhere in Egyptian texts, inscriptions, myths or legends.

cormac

What of the Egyptian tale of  ship wreck sailor  in 2000 bc who tells of a island that will rise and sink again, a island of the blest.  The city of Tartesso was known to the greeks as the island of the blessed.



http://www.reshafim....cked_sailor.htm
Strabo, Geography 3. 2. 11 (trans. Jones) (Greek geographer C1st B.C. to C1st A.D.) :
"The mountain in which the river Baetis is said to rise [in southern Iberia] is called ‘Silver Mountain’ on account of the silver-mines that are in it . . . The ancients seem to have called the Baetis River [of Hispania] ‘Tartessos’; and to have called Gades and the adjoining islands ‘Erytheia’; and this is supposed to be the reason why Stesikhoros spoke as he did about [Eurytion] the neat-herd of Geryon, namely, that he was born ‘about opposite famous Erytheia, beside the unlimited, silver-rooted springs of the river Tartessos, in a cavern of a cliff.’ Since the river had two mouths, a city was planted on the intervening territory in former times, it is said,--a city which was called ‘Tartessos,’ after the name of the river . . . Further Eratosthenes says that the country adjoining Kalpe is called ‘Tartessis,’ and that Erytheia is called ‘Blest Island’ (Nesos Eudaimos)."

http://www.theoi.com...s/Erytheia.html

Edited by docyabut2, 17 November 2012 - 03:59 AM.


#52    cormac mac airt

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 03:37 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 17 November 2012 - 03:12 AM, said:

What of the Egyptian tale of  ship wreck sailor  in 2000 bc who tells of a island that rose and sank again, a island of the blest.  The city of Tartesso was known to the greeks as the island of the blessed.



http://www.reshafim....cked_sailor.htm

There are two problems with that idea. 1)  Nubia and Kush are bordered by the Red Sea and not the Mediterranean, so Tartessos is irrelevant to the story. 2) Mycenaeans aside, there were no Greeks to link to the Egyptian tale in 2000 BC as you're attempting.

cormac

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#53    The Puzzler

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 02:17 PM

View Postblackdogsun, on 16 November 2012 - 02:58 AM, said:

We tend to get caught up in Plato's supposed retelling of the tale of Atlantis and lose sight of the fact that Plato says that the story was originally Egyptian, and passed down to him from Solon who intern heard it from priests while on his travels through Egypt.
Plato also goes on to say that the original names for places and gods in the story were changed or Hellenized (transposed into alternate corresponding Greek names) from their original Egyptian names in order to be more familiar to his Greek audience.

Therefore if one were to look for any elements of truth to the tale of Atlantis then one would necessarily have to explore ancient Egyptian mythologies, not the Greek i.e. look for some corresponding Egyptian deities that are similar to the Greek god Poseidon and his half mortal son Atlas(2) (not to be confused with the other Atlas(1) who's labor as a Titan was to hold up the celestial sphere) and if they are associated with the sudden disappearance of a people that came from an island in the sea.
It's been recorded as a historical event that the Athenians had been involved in, in the sacred registers, it's not said to be an Egyptian myth.

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#54    The Puzzler

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 02:27 PM

View Postthe L, on 16 November 2012 - 11:05 PM, said:

Herodotus:

Atlantians; and it is said that they neither eat anything that has life nor have any dreams.

From link you provided.




Because that doesnt fit in your view its junk.
I think you've done a great job of referencing information L and agree that it's the most likely place, considering there is an Atlantis Sea and Atlanteans as well as Mt Atlas there.

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#55    Parsec

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 03:18 AM

Hi The L,

I go with some quotes!

View Postthe L, on 15 November 2012 - 08:10 PM, said:

Is Troy real?
Is Tartessos real?
Did Phoenicans invented alphabet?
Did Amazons existed?

alledgedly-you didnt read thread and you dont nothing about history itself.

Tell me do you believe that Haphaestus lived? I do because every well educated historian does.
And guess what he was from Olympus.

Did Tacitus,Strabo,Diodorus,Plutarch wrote truth?

As I already wrote elsewhere on UM, we have to be very careful with greek historians. They tended to mix historical facts with myths: not because they were stupid or naive, but because, to them, they were the same. They had a religion with personified gods. To them they were real, just like to us (at least, for who believes) are real Jesus and the apostles. History was the story of men, while myth was the story of gods, as real as history and entwined with it.

We don't know if Troy is real: Schliemann didn't find homeric Troy, but a city (if I'm not wrong seven stratified cities) resembling Troy, but not the mythical one.

So yes, Tacitus, Strabo, Diodorus, Plutarch wrote truth, but truth according to their way of seeing life and history.

I add that in old times the pillars of Hercules have been moved quite a lot along the Mediterrean Sea: their actual position is only the last one. They basically followed greek knowledge of the seas, so they started from East to West. In homeric times, for instance, they were placed at the entrance of the Black Sea.
So it's not strange that Diodorus placed them in Lybia and not in Gibraltar.


View PostHarte, on 16 November 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

No need, you selectively repeated diodorus siculus enough.

What you've left out is that the people Siculus referred to as Atlantians in those passages were the people living around Mount Atlas in the Atlas Mountain range of North Africa.  He states this in his description of the area surrounding the marsh that was the Amazons' home:

IBID 3.53.4

These people were the same ones written about by Herodotus hundreds of years earlier and are not even similar to what Plato described:

Herodotus' "Histories," Book 4 184

Hence, that's not Plato's Atlantis.

Harte

Here I go with Harte, those described by Diodorus weren't the Atlanteans from Atlantis, but the dwellers of the Atlas mountains region.
The Atlantis Sea you're referring to, is named after the Titan Atlas, who lived under the Atlas mountain, not after Atlantis (that's been named after Atlas too, but, you know, Greeks were quite complicated :lol: ).

You rightly ask about the texts Diodorus took his informations from: we don't know them, but consider that Plato lived 400 years before him, so, to him, they were quite old writings. To us they're all Greeks, but it's like we find a book from 1600 BC. It's all another world, and so was for them. And we have to remember that Diodorus was Greek, but in a Roman world and time.

We have to consider another important thing: we talk about horses, and, as we can read, amazons were great riders. As you know it's probable that horse domestication happened in central Europe around 7th millenium BC, so, how do we combine this date with our amazons?
If you want to retrodate their story, back at 10.000 BC they didn't have horses (at least, as far as we know), so it doesn't work; if you want to place them in a more feasable time, we don't have any historical, nor archaeological evidence of them.

So, to me, your idea is good, and maybe there's something true in what you've found, but I wouldn't link it with amazons.


#56    Harte

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 03:44 AM

View Postthe L, on 16 November 2012 - 11:05 PM, said:

Herodotus:

Atlantians; and it is said that they neither eat anything that has life nor have any dreams.

From link you provided.
If you read what Herodotus wrote about them, instead of quote-mining, it is clear that he is using a Greek word that would describe people living in the shadow of Mount Atlas.  Mount Atlas was named after the Titan Atlas.  Plato's Atlantis was named after Plato's fictional human Atlas, son of Poseidon and Clito:

Quote

In this mountain there dwelt one of the earth born primeval men of that country, whose name was Evenor, and he had a wife named Leucippe, and they had an only daughter who was called Cleito. The maiden had already reached womanhood, when her father and mother died; Poseidon fell in love with her and had intercourse with her, and breaking the ground, inclosed the hill in which she dwelt all round, making alternate zones of sea and land larger and smaller, encircling one another; there were two of land and three of water, which he turned as with a lathe, each having its circumference equidistant every way from the centre, so that no man could get to the island, for ships and voyages were not as yet. He himself, being a god, found no difficulty in making special arrangements for the centre island, bringing up two springs of water from beneath the earth, one of warm water and the other of cold, and making every variety of food to spring up abundantly from the soil. He also begat and brought up five pairs of twin male children; and dividing the island of Atlantis into ten portions, he gave to the first-born of the eldest pair his mother's dwelling and the surrounding allotment, which was the largest and best, and made him king over the rest; the others he made princes, and gave them rule over many men, and a large territory. And he named them all; the eldest, who was the first king, he named Atlas, and after him the whole island and the ocean were called Atlantic.
Critias (Plato)

View Postthe L, on 16 November 2012 - 11:05 PM, said:

Because that doesnt fit in your view its junk.
So, explain to me who this "Gorgon" culture was?

You do know that everything Siculus wrote on this is based on Plato's Timaeus and Critias dialogues, right?

Harte

Edited by Harte, 18 November 2012 - 03:57 AM.

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#57    Harte

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 03:58 AM

View Postthe L, on 16 November 2012 - 07:14 PM, said:

Earth is moving around Sun therfore Atlantis didnt exist.
What kind of argument is that Greeks used Greek words before Plato. That isnt what my evidence indicates.
My evidence indicates what Greek Historian wrote. That Amazons attack Atlanteans.
Atlantis is itself a Greek word which fits quite well (of course) with the way the Greeks used it.  See:

Quote

The oldest known mention of "Atlantic" is in The Histories of Herodotus around 450 BC (Hdt. 1.202.4): Atlantis thalassa (Greek: Ἀτλαντὶς θάλασσα; English: Sea of Atlas).
Source Wiki

Note the term "θάλασσα" and then read what was posted in Greek from Herodotus. You'll find that Greek word (which is a word for sea, or open sea, in ancient Greek)immediately preceding the word Atlantis in the Greek script in the posted pic.

Herodotus merely used the Greek word Atlantis in reference to the Sea of Atlas.  The "of Atlas" part translates to "Atlantis" in Greek.

Harte

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#58    kmt_sesh

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 04:59 AM

Two things here.

First, as a poster I will stress that it's evident the word "Atlantis" was in the Greek language well before Plato came along. No one is claiming Plato invented the word itself. However, Plato was the first to present the story as we understand it: the high civilization on a vast island-continent at war with Athens 9,000 years before Solon but destroyed by geological disaster. No one prior to Plato writes of this saga. By all appearances, of course, Plato concocted it himself.

Second, as a Moderator and having seen some of the epic-length opening posts, I will remind posters not to copy and paste entire articles or even long passages of them. Doing so not only almost guarantees no one will care to read them, but it might well risk copyright issues.

The rules of UM are clear on this:

Quote

2c. Plagiarism and copyright: If you quote text from an external web site then please always provide a source link. Members are asked to copy only as much as is necessary when quoting material from external sources, do not copy and paste entire articles or web pages. ( See our Sourcing FAQ )

So, be sure to copy only a paragraph or two and provide a link to the web page of origin so the interested reader can read the entire article at his or her leisure, if desired.

Thanks.

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#59    docyabut2

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 10:21 AM

Clearly the dialogues points to the pillars of Hercules at Gibraltar and the country called Gaderia, when the tale was told to Solon .

The Greeks knew the city as Gadira or Gadeira.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadiz


As the Egyptain priest was saying to Solon


And the name of his younger twin-brother, who had for his portion the extremity of the island near the pillars of Herakles up to the part of the country now called Gadeira

http://www.theoi.com...s/Atlantes.html

Edited by docyabut2, 18 November 2012 - 10:59 AM.


#60    Abramelin

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 10:30 AM

Just an aside: the older, Phoenician name of the Pillars was Pillars of Melqart.





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