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The Practical meaning of Socialism


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#76    ninjadude

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 03:33 AM

View PostWhite Unicorn, on 04 December 2012 - 02:39 AM, said:

I agree they need to be more motivated in finding people jobs. If everyone was becoming employed it would still leave them with the transitional unemployed and paperwork for unemployment benefits.  It seems like that's all they do now is qualify people for their unemployment insurance...and a lot of those short term unemployed like applying for jobs they won't get in order to collect more than they would working and some of them even work under the table at the same time!

Unemployment laws vary by state. I can guarantee you that when I was unemployed last year and early this year, UI was a lifeline. And that's what it's supposed to be. It's very LITTLE money and is extremely difficult to live on. You whine about UI but have never been unemployed. You whine about UI and make unfounded generalizations about how it works everywhere.

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#77    White Unicorn

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 04:09 AM

View Postninjadude, on 04 December 2012 - 03:33 AM, said:

Unemployment laws vary by state. I can guarantee you that when I was unemployed last year and early this year, UI was a lifeline. And that's what it's supposed to be. It's very LITTLE money and is extremely difficult to live on. You whine about UI but have never been unemployed. You whine about UI and make unfounded generalizations about how it works everywhere.

State laws vary a lot and that's a big part of the problem!  Unemployment is great but it's abused by many. What would you do if your spouse  didn't find a job and it ran out and they became dependent on you who also lost your job but still work but only with about 15000 net to live on for 8 years while you see the cheaters everyday at your job?  Wouldn't you be a little whiney about the system in place? It can be better and squeaky wheels tend to get fixed. We need solutions to make the system better not throw it out.


#78    ninjadude

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:08 AM

View PostWhite Unicorn, on 04 December 2012 - 04:09 AM, said:

State laws vary a lot and that's a big part of the problem!  

oh noes not more big gubment! thats socialism. The topic of this thread. :rofl:

Quote

while you see the cheaters everyday at your job?

how can you "see cheaters"? do they wear a scarlet letter or yellow symbol that identifies them as "cheaters"?

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#79    F3SS

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:53 AM

View Postninjadude, on 05 December 2012 - 04:08 AM, said:



oh noes not more big gubment! thats socialism. The topic of this thread. :rofl:



how can you "see cheaters"? do they wear a scarlet letter or yellow symbol that identifies them as "cheaters"?
From my experience they usually always end up talking to someone about it and really most of the time it's no secret. That's a rampant thing in the small time construction business which has many negative side effects on the legit companies.

Edited by -Mr_Fess-, 05 December 2012 - 04:55 AM.

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#80    Imaginarynumber1

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 04:57 AM

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#81    White Unicorn

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 05:36 AM

View Post-Mr_Fess-, on 05 December 2012 - 04:53 AM, said:

From my experience they usually always end up talking to someone about it and really most of the time it's no secret. That's a rampant thing in the small time construction business which has many negative side effects on the legit companies.

Some even brag about beating the system and then you know about the others when they deposit a disability or unemployment check but they also cash their under the table pay checks seperately. The only laugh I get is is when they get denied a loan for insufficient income and complain because they don't report it on their tax returns. Cheating IRS, unemployment insurance and doing other people out of a job. It's outrageous when you think of all the misused funds in that part of the system and there's not enough enforcement to make a difference.


#82    Jinxdom

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 06:31 AM

That's what I want to fix the disparity of crappy jobs and the things you need in life. That's the thing about people who abuse it since it is a small fraction and are the more noticeable. Problem is people are focusing on only that one aspect and missing the people who actually need the help (not drawing attention because they actually need it therefor less focus). Abuses or not when everybody thinks the system is a joke that's when things will change for the better. (Let's face it the system blows).

I want to be able to live either on my own or by the government. Since people can't get work now we need to rely on the government. If people could find work then we wouldn't need to be on it in the first place. The cost of what you need out weigh what you make and only stuff you need you have to cut just to get by making it a losing game. The laws that protect people bind their hands to certain things, money binds peoples on different means. We were a land where we could go out and get our own.... now we can't without help. I don't care which way it goes no government help or more action by the people to create a better country(fancy way of saying more jobs). I just want it to happen.

I just want the freedom to live without having to break the rules or screw people over to do so. How is that unreasonable? Since we are getting screwed by the people we go to the government, socialism. We get screwed by the government we go to the people for help, capitalism. The majority tells us which swing we are on and what we need when the majority switches change happens. Revolution happens when a third party enters get to much power and then successfully forces change. On the flip side Wars\Terrorism happen when the people in power abuse it.

Sounds almost American. if you ask me.


#83    RavenHawk

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 04:23 AM

View PostImaginarynumber1, on 05 December 2012 - 04:57 AM, said:

[Cute saying of Inigo Montoya clipped]
Iíve seen this many times already.  I love it.  But it shows your ignorance.  ďI don-na think you understand what Iím saying.Ē  So let me take a different tact here.  Please state what your definition of Socialism is.  Donít go into real depth and donít cut&paste, just a few sentences.  When you do that, I will then ask you a few questions about your definition.  Will that work for you?  This is open for anyone else if you donít want to.

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#84    Imaginarynumber1

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 04:27 AM

View PostRavenHawk, on 08 December 2012 - 04:23 AM, said:

I've seen this many times already.  I love it.  But it shows your ignorance.  "I don-na think you understand what I'm saying."  So let me take a different tact here.  Please state what your definition of Socialism is.  Don't go into real depth and don't cut&paste, just a few sentences.  When you do that, I will then ask you a few questions about your definition.  Will that work for you?  This is open for anyone else if you don't want to.

No. You've already shown that your definition of socialism is one that you have made up. You go have fun with that.

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#85    RavenHawk

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 05:37 PM

View PostImaginarynumber1, on 08 December 2012 - 04:27 AM, said:

No. You've already shown that your definition of socialism is one that you have made up. You go have fun with that.
Afraid eh?  Itís not made up, but I do define how I use it in specific terms.  You donít want to discuss what that means.  It threatens your comfort zone because I donít dress Socialism up in a euphemism.  I indentify what it is and that is opposite of what youíve spent your entire life believing what it isnít.

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#86    Imaginarynumber1

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 07:01 PM

View PostRavenHawk, on 10 December 2012 - 05:37 PM, said:

Afraid eh?  It's not made up, but I do define how I use it in specific terms.  You don't want to discuss what that means.  It threatens your comfort zone because I don't dress Socialism up in a euphemism.  I indentify what it is and that is opposite of what you've spent your entire life believing what it isn't.

:sleepy:

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#87    RavenHawk

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:02 PM

View PostImaginarynumber1, on 10 December 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

:sleepy:
Thatís about what I would expect.  Thatís the best you can do to defend your position?  Of which no one really knows what that is, except that you donít like or understand what I said.  Thatís it.

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#88    Imaginarynumber1

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:05 PM

View PostRavenHawk, on 11 December 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

That's about what I would expect.  That's the best you can do to defend your position?  Of which no one really knows what that is, except that you don't like or understand what I said.  That's it.

No, I just don't like you. You talk about politics like the world is going to end if you don't get your way and don't even know what socialism is. You've made up your own definition, then declare that everybody who doesn't agree with you is wrong and ignorant.
People like you are the reason that America is doing so poorly right now. People like you divide this country by insisting that only your way is correct and you refuse to give an inch for the greater good. If and when this nation falls, it will be due to people like you.

I have nothing more to say to you.

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#89    F3SS

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:39 AM

View PostImaginarynumber1, on 11 December 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:

No, I just don't like you. You talk about politics like the world is going to end if you don't get your way and don't even know what socialism is. You've made up your own definition, then declare that everybody who doesn't agree with you is wrong and ignorant.
People like you are the reason that America is doing so poorly right now. People like you divide this country by insisting that only your way is correct and you refuse to give an inch for the greater good. If and when this nation falls, it will be due to people like you.

I have nothing more to say to you.
Well then, talk to me. I'm not sure if she's saying only her way is correct, only that socialism is not and please don't argue the definition with me because it's a little besides the point. If she is arguing for fundamental constitutionalism and our founding principle then I will agree with her and giving an inch to anything but that is the reason we're falling and the reason we will fall. It won't be because of people that wouldn't move along because wether America falls or America fundamentally changes it won't be the same anymore. From her standpoint, think of giving an inch as aiding the enemy and I can't say that I really disagree.

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#90    Imaginarynumber1

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 01:10 AM

View Post-Mr_Fess-, on 12 December 2012 - 12:39 AM, said:

Well then, talk to me. I'm not sure if she's saying only her way is correct, only that socialism is not and please don't argue the definition with me because it's a little besides the point. If she is arguing for fundamental constitutionalism and our founding principle then I will agree with her and giving an inch to anhing but that is the reason we're falling and the reason we will fall. It won't be because of people that wouldn't move along because wether America falls or America fundamentally changes it won't be the same anymore. From her standpoint, think of giving an inch as aiding the enemy and I can't say that I really disagree.

The difference is I like you. I feel that we can disagree, yet still understand one another's position, to some extent. And even , when things come together just right, share a few laughs    ( Haha! :wub: :lol: )

In all honestly, after the election my desire to talk politics has vastly waned. No thanks, in part, to this semester coming to an end and the mad scramble to finish research papers and prepare for finals.

But we're not enemies. I understand your view, I really do. I have several good friends (I have friends.. i swear.) that share your view and we have discussed it at length. Due to my education, however, I view things through a different lens. Most of my recent time has been spent with anthropology and looking at these other cultures and how they have/are failing or succeeding makes one see that our formalist economic methods across the global are not in anyone's best interests except a select few. We have far exceed the carrying capacity of our lands and have ruined others across the globe in the process.

The most successful societies, it may pain you to hear, are essentially socialist. They are as close to egalitarian as you can get. The share and redistribute their wealth(usually food) and humans lived this way for over 90% of their existence as hunter/gatherer societies. Economics is the only science whose models have been proven time and time again to be faulty, yet they refuse the refine them because it would alter our way of life which while it works for us, is not sustainable.

1/4 of the worlds nations combined have less money than the 3 richest people in the world. The disparity between rich and poor is rising every day. 3 billion people live on $2 or less a day because of our colonial and now post colonial economics. 3 billion. If you filled up a sheet of paper with x's for every person, you would have 3 Empire state buildings worth of people that live on less than $2 a day so we can keep our lifestyles. And it is NOT sustainable. There is NO trickle down of wealth. There never has been. There never will be. I implore you, if you ever get the chance to travel, look around at what our wealth has cost the rest of the world.

I'm not rooting for socialism, but I certainly don't see it as the evil end of the world and I don't see the US anywhere near becoming a socialist country. That's nothing but a paranoid fantasy that Glenn Beck cries about. Things need to change. You think it's bad now? The disparity between rich and poor is just growing and growing and growing. Our current models and methods DO NOT WORK.
/rant

Edited by Imaginarynumber1, 12 December 2012 - 01:17 AM.

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