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The Power that Prayer does not Have


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#46    Mystic Crusader

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 09:12 PM

View PostSpiritWriter, on 03 October 2012 - 08:38 PM, said:

Oh but the Power Prayer does have.....

Proove it! HA

Big God vs. little god. Through God All things are possible! This includes prayer. Hallelujah!

Prayer is for your spirit.... not for your ego.

And what is your definition of spirit?

Thomas Paine wrote in The Age of Reason that “Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous execution, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God."
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#47    Ben Masada

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 09:16 PM

View PostSpiritWriter, on 03 October 2012 - 08:38 PM, said:

Oh but the Power Prayer does have.....

Proove it! HA

Big God vs. little god. Through God All things are possible! This includes prayer. Hallelujah!

Prayer is for your spirit.... not for your ego.

Not petition prayers at least.


#48    Ben Masada

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 09:21 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 05 October 2012 - 12:37 AM, said:

Im sorry. What? How can prayer cause those things We might get disapointed or stressed if we believe god has not answered our prayers, but if while praying we know god is listening and is answering our prayers then we cant get sressed or anxious. we accpet gods answer  to our prayer in whatever material form it takes.

On a wider note not only does god answer prayers abut he channges physical reality( ie creates nmiracles) and the potential future in order to answer those prayers. For example a perosnmight be destined ot die in one future, but prays to god .god saves them. (which he can do in numerous ways) The future is changed. It is really as simple as that, in real life. Only our philosophical/ theoretical constructs and understandngs of beliefs about god prevent us from seeing this. There are a number of cases in the old testament where god changes his mind clearly and deliberately and causes different consequences from those he first planned . This starts in eden. God never palnned for adam and eve to fall. He never knew this would happen although he understood the potentiality of it He never knew satan would go to war with him either, because that intent was an evolved choice in satans mind which might never have come about. Satan could have made other choice.s Adam and eve could have made other choices.

Not according to Numbers 23:19. Perhaps according to the Greek text, which is Hellenistic par excellence.

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#49    Ben Masada

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 09:26 PM

View PostRon Jeremy, on 06 October 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

I somewhat agree with OP. God has no moral responsibility to answer your prayer. In fact, he never answers anyone's prayers. I learned this by the hard way.

God has answered our prayers already when others of His creatures, were endowed with the expertise to be proficient in what one needs to achieve. The Doctor for the sick, for instance.

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#50    Ben Masada

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 09:29 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 06 October 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

That Ben is not the point I was making.   . Yes man can decide what to do himself / herself ..BUT  my point is, that God already knows what he or she has decided to do before they even make any decision..   To sum up - God will know what you will decide and what the outcome of your decision will be, long before you do ..

I agree with you, but He does not intervene in the affairs of man. Into his free will, that is.

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#51    Etu Malku

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 09:30 PM

Here's the problem with what we have come to know as Prayer:

I see prayer as a "lost" magical art. It has become rote recitations or simple wish-making.

Prayer originally was a process of concentrated visualization, combined with emotional and mental energy, properly grounded to the physical through proper vocalization.

The spoken Word became in essence praying, this was first understood by the ancient Egyptians in the way of Affirmations and made manifest in (Heka) vibrational magic. Efforts were made to align sound with the principles of a cosmic order (natural ordering of the universe) which perhaps could be seen as a LOGOS, the dialog with that part of your Self that has the ability to create any condition you need or desire.

The invocation within a prayer unites our meditative state of consciousness with the power of the Word and our innate force of Will.

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#52    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 09:32 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 06 October 2012 - 09:29 PM, said:

I agree with you, but He does not intervene in the affairs of man. Into his free will, that is.

Ben

Nothing from my posts suggests he intervenes, I was speaking about being all knowing..... But see  what you hold here is your opinion..  If he intervenes or not is something no one can prove for sure..

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#53    Ben Masada

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 09:54 PM

View PostEtu Malku, on 06 October 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:

Here's the problem with what we have come to know as Prayer:

I see prayer as a "lost" magical art. It has become rote recitations or simple wish-making.

Prayer originally was a process of concentrated visualization, combined with emotional and mental energy, properly grounded to the physical through proper vocalization.

The spoken Word became in essence praying, this was first understood by the ancient Egyptians in the way of Affirmations and made manifest in (Heka) vibrational magic. Efforts were made to align sound with the principles of a cosmic order (natural ordering of the universe) which perhaps could be seen as a LOGOS, the dialog with that part of your Self that has the ability to create any condition you need or desire.

The invocation within a prayer unites our meditative state of consciousness with the power of the Word and our innate force of Will.

That's a strange concept I have never heard of. We use more the prayer-song method. The method you present seems the same but without the music.

Ben


#54    Ben Masada

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 09:55 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 06 October 2012 - 09:32 PM, said:

Nothing from my posts suggests he intervenes, I was speaking about being all knowing..... But see  what you hold here is your opinion..  If he intervenes or not is something no one can prove for sure..

Well, according to Numbers 23:19, He doesn't.


#55    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 10:16 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 06 October 2012 - 09:55 PM, said:

Well, according to Numbers 23:19, He doesn't.

I do not follow nor holds beliefs in any man made religion... I view God differently.... Each to their own

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#56    Etu Malku

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 10:33 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 06 October 2012 - 09:54 PM, said:

That's a strange concept I have never heard of. We use more the prayer-song method. The method you present seems the same but without the music.

Ben
Oh, I didn't mean to imply prayers were just bizarre incantations or something.

Vocalizing the prayer or what the Egyptians called Affirmations, was a part of most ancient religions, they were almost always accompanied by music if only by a drum beat.

Being that you are located in Israel I assume you are Jewish?

The number of musicians engaged in the temple during the time of King David; "and four thousand praised the Lord with instruments which I made, said David, to praise therewith" (1 Chron. xxiii. 5).

King Solomon himself was a musical composer!

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#57    Mr Walker

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 12:51 AM

View PostAlienated Being, on 03 October 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

Not at all. When an individual knows that they are being prayed for, it tends to produce adverse effects, and results.

http://web.med.harva...l/3_31STEP.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16569567

[b]


You quote that study a lot. What was the nature of those prayed for eg believers or atheists? What illnesses did they have and how was it conducted? Did the people prayed for know those praying personally, like friends or family, or were they just told some compete stranger had been arbitrarily praying for them without their consent?

There are other studies i have read which indicated significant improvements on patients who were prayed for. For example prayer might not improve the physical outcomes for patients suffering from cancer, but it might help those suffering from non clinical depression associated with the cancer, and thus improve their quality of life.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#58    Alienated Being

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 04:48 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 07 October 2012 - 12:51 AM, said:

You quote that study a lot. What was the nature of those prayed for eg believers or atheists? What illnesses did they have and how was it conducted? Did the people prayed for know those praying personally, like friends or family, or were they just told some compete stranger had been arbitrarily praying for them without their consent?

There are other studies i have read which indicated significant improvements on patients who were prayed for. For example prayer might not improve the physical outcomes for patients suffering from cancer, but it might help those suffering from non clinical depression associated with the cancer, and thus improve their quality of life.
Go and do some research on the study. I am not going to spoon feed the details to you.


#59    SpiritWriter

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 10:52 AM

View PostHavocWing, on 06 October 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

And what is your definition of spirit?

Spirit to me is your soul and the awareness of its connection to God. This may not be my ideal definition, I don't think I defined it before. When I say prayer is for your spirit, I mean prayer helps you get closer to God, helps you eliminate negatives, recognize things within you that are stumbling blocks for growth, such as hate/jealously/anger (for example). I don't believe we need to pray for things like, a new car, a new house, extra money etc.. because God provides for us always and provides in a better way than we can see for ourself. If we are meant to be a teacher, but are in reality a customer service representative for a cellphone company, or a nurse, or a manager of a grocery store - in prayer we may ask for a raise at work but then turn around and get fired from our job. Jesus said we pray like this (forgive me I haven't read this whole thread at all, this may have been mentioned)

our father who art in heaven hallow be thy name - Give God the Glory
thy kingdom come, they will be done - let your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven - these are the workings of spiritual things, we desire it for the Earth and not only for ourselves...
give us this day our daily bread- God always provides for us, we can ask for things sure, it may not be exactly what we "think" we need, but he gives us the provisions always, sometimes at the last minute and in what seems like impossible ways!
forgive us our trespasses - We repent of the ills we have committed, we recognize them, we change our minds and ask God to help us become better and better people
as we forgive others - we are set free in our spirit by forgiving others, God helps us with this, this is not always instant, but if we are intent and earnest we can learn to forgive even the greatest things (this does not mean tolerate sins against us, this means for us to be free of its negative effects on us - that cause spiritual unhealthiness for both parties)
For thine is the kingdom,
The power, and the glory, - Again giving honor to God
Amen - God wants to make sure you haven't fallen asleep during prayer, so you finish by saying Amen... lol  - just kidding

:)


This is not to say all prayers are this way, or that I pray this way, but I believe this is a good example of what prayer is like... God is our friend, our father (or mother or both), someone that is by our side at all times that we can learn from, that guides us, that protects us and provides for us. In prayer we develop the relationship, we are earnest about shedding things like - sin and changing our mind about certain behaviors and attitudes within ourselves that help us see God more clearly. This is spiritual growth. In this process we learn to love better, be better parents, be better friends. We see that our help truly does come from the Lord...



a few paragraphs down from the Lords prayer in Matthew is this:

Do Not Worry
25“Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his lifeb?
28“And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

Edited by SpiritWriter, 07 October 2012 - 10:55 AM.

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#60    wanderer_

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 04:52 PM

View PostGolly Buster, on 22 September 2012 - 10:45 PM, said:

Praying is like an icecube making an effort to melt so that it becomes a little bit closer to the ocean around it.

Well put.
I would say, about "request" prayers, that since God is omniscient, he knows what the outcome will be, whether or not someone prays. So praying can just be a sort of, pleading of your case, so to speak. There are selfish types of request prayers, which I would imagine God will not answer. These are ego driven, and go directly against the idea of trying to get closer to God. God knows which prayers are genuine, and which are not, and only the genuine prayers will be of good use. Praying is acknowledging God, and including him in your decision making. It's a form of surrender to God, almost like saying, "I admit that I can't do this without you, please grace me with your help" or something to that effect.





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