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Why did God create us if he knew we would sin


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#256    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 06:13 PM

View PostHazrus, on 16 November 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

This is just plain retarded.

I agree it is a bit messed up..I doubt Jesus was full of joy on the cross either.. "Oh boy, I was torturned, whipped and beaten, and now I'm gonna die, ..such joy " . I believe in god myself, and I believe I will be in heaven.. But I do not look forward to death with joy.. I live for the here and now.. I look forward to seeing my kids grow up and maybe my grandchildren...   Life is for living, not to look forward to death ....If I was dying soon, I would feel no joy....In fact, I would feel sad that I will miss out on so much.. I would want to be able to be there for them in the flesh,  to see them through life as much as possible..  I am a mother, I feel it is my right.. Joy will ony hit me, when I reach heaven,.but not when I am dying..... Heaven can wait

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 23 November 2012 - 06:44 PM.

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#257    Bluefinger

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 06:56 PM

View PostBling, on 31 October 2012 - 11:52 PM, said:

Why would God create humans knowing that a vast number of them would suffer in this life? Does eternity really make up for a life of war, fear, hunger, or _______ (insert issue here). The typical response to this question is, “People could have lived in perfection as God created it, but they chose sin.” But that doesn’t answer the question. God would have known that people would sin. So why start the whole mess at all, even with the promise of a messiah?

I don't have a good answer for this.  But I do have good questions:

Would people know about hope in a perfect world?  

Would we ever grasp the depth of love if we were always worthy of it?

Would we ever hear of mercy if we never broke a command?

Would we ever measure greatness or look in awe of something?  (By doing thus, we grow in knowledge and capability.)

What would we appreciate about goodness if there was no evil.  What would we appreciate at all?  (For art is natural for us.)

Would we ever desire?  Or would there ever be a healthy limit to our desires?

Is it possible that we were called good because we were good enough rather than good because we were infallible?

It is not enough to have a good mind.  The main thing is to use it well.     - Descartes

#258    Etu Malku

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:03 PM

View PostBluefinger, on 27 November 2012 - 06:56 PM, said:


Would people know about hope in a perfect world?
The world is imperfect, everything is imperfect, that's the beauty of existence . . . its imperfection, its individualism.

Would we ever grasp the depth of love if we were always worthy of it?
Why not? Worthy? What does that even mean? Love is an aspect of our nature to survive as a species

Would we ever hear of mercy if we never broke a command?
Again, Why wouldn't we know these emotions? No one needs religion to dictate to them ethics and morality.

Would we ever measure greatness or look in awe of something?
I do this every day and without the need of some Supreme Being

What would we appreciate about goodness if there was no evil.  What would we appreciate at all?  (For art is natural for us.)
This I can agree with you on (see we're that opposing to one another). We exist in a world of Dualism, we measure and assign meaning to things through our dualistic nature.

Would we ever desire?  Or would there ever be a healthy limit to our desires?
Desire is natural, it is human to desire.

Is it possible that we were called good because we were good enough rather than good because we were infallible?
Ok . . . who's the wise guy that called me "good"?

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#259    Bluefinger

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 12:50 AM

View PostEtu Malku, on 27 November 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:



Would people know about hope in a perfect world?
The world is imperfect, everything is imperfect, that's the beauty of existence . . . its imperfection, its individualism.

That doesn't really relate to the question originally asked by the OP.  Sounds like you just wanted to talk.

Quote

Would we ever grasp the depth of love if we were always worthy of it?
Why not? Worthy? What does that even mean? Love is an aspect of our nature to survive as a species

No its not.  Not the love everyone else is talking about.  If you are talking nature, you are talking herdal instinct, not love.

Quote

Would we ever hear of mercy if we never broke a command?
Again, Why wouldn't we know these emotions? No one needs religion to dictate to them ethics and morality.

Notice I said mercy and you responded with religion, ethics, and morality.  I wonder if yoy are even reading before you start typing.

Quote

Would we ever measure greatness or look in awe of something?
I do this every day and without the need of some Supreme Being

The OP asked why God would create something if He knew it would fail.  You're trying to dispute God's existence, which isn't at all the intended point of this thread.

Quote

What would we appreciate about goodness if there was no evil.  What would we appreciate at all?  (For art is natural for us.)
This I can agree with you on (see we're that opposing to one another). We exist in a world of Dualism, we measure and assign meaning to things through our dualistic nature.

I disagree.  While Dualism is a manly belief, it lacks logic.  Who is evil for the sake of evil?  Nobody.  Evil is performed when people pursue naturally good things in an improper manner.  

Quote

Would we ever desire?  Or would there ever be a healthy limit to our desires?
Desire is natural, it is human to desire.

Would it be if we were perfect?   That os the question being asked.

Quote

Is it possible that we were called good because we were good enough rather than good because we were infallible?
Ok . . . who's the wise guy that called me "good"?

What do you mean?

It is not enough to have a good mind.  The main thing is to use it well.     - Descartes

#260    Etu Malku

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 03:23 AM

View PostBluefinger, on 28 November 2012 - 12:50 AM, said:

That doesn't really relate to the question originally asked by the OP.  Sounds like you just wanted to talk.


No its not.  Not the love everyone else is talking about.  If you are talking nature, you are talking herdal instinct, not love.


Notice I said mercy and you responded with religion, ethics, and morality.  I wonder if yoy are even reading before you start typing.


The OP asked why God would create something if He knew it would fail.  You're trying to dispute God's existence, which isn't at all the intended point of this thread.


I disagree.  While Dualism is a manly belief, it lacks logic.  Who is evil for the sake of evil?  Nobody.  Evil is performed when people pursue naturally good things in an improper manner.  


Would it be if we were perfect?   That os the question being asked.


What do you mean?
First off, I am answering your questions, if your questions don't pertain to the OP that is not my fault, it is yours.
Secondly, your retorts are shallow (you are usually better than this)

My reply concerning Mercy was actually in line with the OP (make up your mind)
Human love is a survival mechanism, entailed to attract, continue the species, and to guard the family. I know not of any love mechanism found in nature.

My reply was to your question "Would we ever measure greatness or look in awe of something?" I am not disputing the existence of a god with that reply . . . do YOU reply without reading first is more like it?

Duality IS our objective universe, how can you even say it isn't? Look around you and see that there are opposing forces all around, that for every "this" there is a "that", matter and anti-matter. Good & Evil are subjective, one Man's good is another Man's evil. By defining one or the other you are assigning them both a moral and ethical position mandated by whom? Who is this judge that decides what is good & evil?

There can be no judge, because morals & ethics are formed individually by what we each know and understand about self preservation throughout our life.

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#261    CuriousGreek

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 01:53 PM

I won't say, if God ''created'' sins or not. I will say something else. We, humans, have the chance to be sinners, because that's the only way of realizing what we do and most of all what we have to do. In our world there are both morals and sins and we have to choose which path  we'll follow. If sins didn't exist, we wouldn't be absolutely aware of the depth of the human soul. This way God can see who is good and moral, so that he can enter in Heaven, and who doesn't belong to be there. (Btw, this is the opinion of a Christian Greek Orthodox)

Edited by CuriousGreek, 28 November 2012 - 01:56 PM.

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νιώθεις πως δεν υπάρχουνε λύσεις,
τότε μόνο δυο μάτια μπορούνε,
να σε κάνουν να θέλεις να ζήσεις.

#262    Etu Malku

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 02:01 PM

View PostCuriousGreek, on 28 November 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

I won't say, if God ''created'' sins or not. I will say something else. We, humans, have the chance to be sinners, because that's the only way of realizing what we do and most of all what we have to do. In our world there are both morals and sins and we have to choose which path  we'll follow. If sins didn't exist, we wouldn't be absolutely aware of the depth of the human soul. This way God can see who is good and moral, so that he can enter in Heaven, and who doesn't belong to be there.
According to Christian scripture we are all born INTO Sin, so it's not a choice.
I'm not sure what you are bringing up is Sin, sounds more like ethical choices we are confronted with daily . . . "do I stop at the green light, or just mow down those jaywalkers?"
As for god passing judgment, since I don't believe there to be a Supreme Being, this passing of judgment is irrelevent to my existence in the world. *See my last post directly above

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#263    scowl

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 05:35 PM

View PostEtu Malku, on 28 November 2012 - 02:01 PM, said:

According to Christian scripture we are all born INTO Sin, so it's not a choice.

Christians tell me this all the time but I haven't found anything in the Bible that supports this. I can't understand why a new born baby should suffer in hell for all eternity if it dies when it hasn't done anything. This is one of the sickest religious concepts I've ever heard.


#264    Jor-el

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 07:26 PM

View Postscowl, on 28 November 2012 - 05:35 PM, said:

Christians tell me this all the time but I haven't found anything in the Bible that supports this. I can't understand why a new born baby should suffer in hell for all eternity if it dies when it hasn't done anything. This is one of the sickest religious concepts I've ever heard.

The term may be "born into sin" but the concept is "born into the physical world" where sin abounds. We are not born sinners, we become sinners. To do this all people eventually take sin unto themselves.

The term sin means "missing the mark" or "To depart voluntarily from the path".

To understand the true meaning it must be understood that the root word meant much more than just missing the bulls eye from time to time. It means to miss the mark and so not share in the prize.

For example: Think of a King gathering an army of archers and he had them tested to see if they could hit a target with their bow an arrow. Those who missed the mark were disqualified.

That is the sense of the Greek word "hamartanō" The archer did not get more chances - it was miss and out. The word denotes failure with consequences.

That being said, there is not a person in the world who is not a sinner, but the sin here is deeper than that, it is actually a philosophy of life that all humans share. The need to make decisions based on how they affect the ego, or the core personality of the person. Thus all forms of ego, are sin, since God is excluded from the decision making process.

If one analyzes all sins whatever they may be, they all have one thing in common, the self determining what is right for themselves without consulting God on anything. It is what Adam and Eve did, even before they transgressed.

Edited by Jor-el, 28 November 2012 - 08:12 PM.

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#265    Sean93

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:54 PM

View PostBluefinger, on 27 November 2012 - 06:56 PM, said:

I don't have a good answer for this.  But I do have good questions:

To Answer your questions in the best way I can. P.S, they appear inside the quote box, don't know how that happened but regardless, my answers are beneath the bold text. - Sean93.

Would people know about hope in a perfect world?  
Well if everything was perfect, people wouldn't need to be hopeful of anything because according to the question, everything is already perfect. Hope stems from a want and/or desire which imply's something is out of place which in effect means that there is no total perfection and therefore, the world is not perfect.


Would we ever grasp the depth of love if we were always worthy of it?
Our parent's don't look at us when we pop out of the womb and say "Well, that's my son/daughter but they have to be deserving of my love before I give it to them" I've heard the saying plenty of times. "He/she might have done bad but they're my Son/Daughter, Father/Mother etc. and I still love them. Love of course, is a word used to describe a feeling towards an person or object and differs for everybody, there is no single form of 'Love'. We expect love off of our loved ones - it's in the name for heavens sake and most people in a healthy relationship with said loved ones wouldn't think "I think my father loves me more than my mother, or my sister, or my brother" Love is a powerful word and in my mind, it has only one singular position - you either love someone or you don't, there isn't any in-between.

Would we ever hear of mercy if we never broke a command?
We wouldn't need to because people would be living in Harmony and so there would be nothing for people to be merciful for. Good people want to merciful and so I'd say they find it hard when presented with the scenario that they would never have to be merciful to anyone; and although on the surface that would trouble them, in reality having to give mercy is worse than not needing to give it - like the saying "Prevention is better than a cure". In a perfect world, everyone would be kind and content with each other and so again, mercy becomes superfluous. If you find someone begging you for mercy, you know that they have wrong you in some way but in a perfect world there would be no wrongful acts...so you see.

Would we ever measure greatness or look in awe of something?  (By doing thus, we grow in knowledge and capability.)
A perfect world doesn't automatically mean we cannot be surprised or taken in awe of something new or wonderful. Knowledge and Capability are within us as humans, and they can grow regardless of whether the world is perfect or not; so a perfect world could still have plenty for us to be inspired and awed by. I'll speak in your language for a moment - biblical. The Christian Heaven is perceived as a perfect place right? No hunger, pain or sadness. But God is also perceived as being great, so holy in fact that mortal men cannot look at Him without dying, (Exodus 33:20) but yet in Heaven, perfect as it is supposed to be, you'll be in the presence of God, you'll be able to see him. Considering he is perfect and heaven is also perfect, your question implies that in a perfect world, all things being perfect would detract from their perfection and make them all the same and not very exciting or amazing but it's common Christian knowledge and belief that when you're with God, you'll be overwhelmed with joy and happiness despite being in a perfect world A.K.A Heaven so to answer your question on your biblical terms - Yes, we would still be able to look in awe of something in a perfect world - that would be God, the world would be heaven.

What would we appreciate about goodness if there was no evil.  What would we appreciate at all?  (For art is natural for us.)
Good and Evil would be unneeded because if the world was perfect, we'd only know perfection and everything would be just right. - hence the 'perfect' world . Good and Evil are by-products of human thinking and opinion as well, there is no criteria for Evil and Good as a whole because opinions differentiate all the time. Look at the war in the Middle East for example. There are soldiers over there from America and Britain who believe and feel that they are doing right. President Obama believes he is doing right for a greater cause when he sends in double taps from drones and blows up people trying to help the wounded, but there are obviously many people in the Middle East who see the invasion of their land and the actions of Obama/Cameron and their soldiers as Evil, Why? because this isn't a perfect world - in a perfect world, there would be no wars, no disagreements or fallout, there would only be harmony so good and evil would never foray into the scene. Again, I think your questions stems from your Christian beliefs and you wanting to be a good person and do good deeds as your Bible teaches you to do; but in a perfect world you would not have to do good deeds because everything would be right and just - which would you rather have, an imperfect world where you can do good deeds; or a perfect world where no good deeds are needed because everyone is at harmony with one another?

Would we ever desire?  Or would there ever be a healthy limit to our desires?
Again, prefect world, so that implies that it cannot be tainted or corrupted and so by default, human desires can have no ill-effect on it's perfection. That's not to say that we still couldn't have desires but if the world was perfect, they wouldn't effect them in a negative way and people's desires would be ones that aren't unhealthy. Again think of Heaven - a perfect place where all is good, but could we still have bad desires there? Doesn't seem so because that would defeat the point of Christian teaching where we must be good in this world to get into the next perfect world - if we could be bad in heaven then that would make it imperfect and no different to our imperfect Earth, rendering forgiveness of sins and the hope of 'Everlasting Peace' defunct. Staying on Heaven as a perfect world for a moment, what is the desire of all good Christians? to get to heaven and when there to possibly meet God and Jesus and all their relatives - a desire, but a good and healthy one because Heaven is only a place of good, love and beauty - Perfection. A perfect place where desires flow. So yes, in a perfect world, we could desire.   

Is it possible that we were called good because we were good enough rather than good because we were infallible?
What is good to one man, creed or holy text can just as easily be bad in another. likewise, like I said above about good and evil - there is no set standard for either (Of course you're a Christian and believe there to be a set standard for good and evil which is fine by the way, like I said, everyone has their different opinions on what is and what is not good or bad so your Holy Bible won't affect someone who does not take it as authority (which by the way, doesn't make them a bad person)) But to give the question an answer in Christian terms - yes, that is possible, in fact if I were a Christian I'd say that is correct because if we were infallible then we would be the same as God, who is infallible (according to Christian philosophy and teachings). Obviously God wanted a species that could choose whether to believe in him or not, with consequences for their choices...kinda' sadistic/unfair if you ask me, but maybe the big man was just bored.


Edited by Sean93, 28 November 2012 - 11:56 PM.

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