Is California going the Way of Greece?

[+and-then]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/13/us-california-deficit-idUSBRE84C00D20120513

I wonder if Cali can come back from this without defaulting. And if they were to default how it would affect the rest of the US economy. Remember, this isn't the State's debt. Only how much it's overdrawn this year..... unimaginable.....

[acidhead]

Greece has the ECB and Cali has the FED.. it doesn't matter what the market says.. No Nation or State is Too-Big to Fail in our Keynes 21st Century.

On a personal note I'm quite confused on the OWS crowd... what's been going on is the result of what you have been demanding.

Edited May 13, 2012 by acidhead

[+and-then]

Greece has the ECB and Cali has the FED.. it doesn't matter what the market says.. No Nation or State is Too-Big to Fail in our Keynes 21st Century.

On a personal note I'm quite confused on the OWS crowd... what's been going on is the result of what you have been demanding.

I don't understand..I've been demanding that States spend more than they can afford for welfare programs? My problem with OWS has always been that they allowed some of the worst and most chaotic elements to represent them. The hippie style communal living in public, the open sex, rapes, etc. Yeah...I know it was a very small number and they did not represent all but they were not removed by the movement. They were allowed to stay and the focus BECAME those bent on the chaos. The same entities that partially sponsored OWS could have helped set up leaders, basic rules and had the group self monitor to give NO ONE the ability to just cast aside their message because of misbehavior of a few, yet they seemed to embrace the misbehavior. It just seemed childish. As the economic situation worsens (and it surely will) the next incarnation of these protests might accomplish something good if it were organized correctly. But if the goal is anarchy in it's purest sense then all that will be accomplished is violence.

[Socio]

California is home to the largest population of illegal immigrants in the US, this is what happens when you become a sanctuary state, over crowd your public education system, welfare system, medical system and criminal justice system with millions of people here illegally that contribute little and take a lot on top of millions of American citizens doing the same.

Austerity might be the best thing that could happen to California.

[Bella-Angelique]

I remember reading on when basic prison guards in Californina were granted $100,000 a year income and it was also agreed they would keep getting the same amount a year in retirement.

There is more than being a sanctuary state that is wrong in Californina.

As for will they come back from it? Probably not in the next fifty years if ever compared to what it once was.

[ninjadude]

California is home to the largest population of illegal immigrants in the US,

Since there is no way to determine this number, your statement is pure speculation.

[Indiogene]

California has been in some sort of financial trouble for over 2 decades since the end of the Cold war caused the mass closure of the state's mega-sized military and aerospace industries, then came the aftermath of the 1990s recession and the 2003 financial crisis predicted the 2008 great recession and depletion of the state treasury was historic. I'm wondering how much NAFTA seem to screwed the state's once large industrial and agricultural economies suffering from factory closures and environmental regulations impacted the state's fish and game, lumber and farming industries. The state of California is dependent on economies of both Mexico/Latin America and the Asian pacific rim (i.e. Japan and China) built on free trade practices, outsourcing of every known job/career/occupation possible out of state and country, and mass immigration from the mentioned countries replaced the 10 million departed former long-time residents and native-born Californians fled to neighboring western states in the last 20 years.

Today, California expects to be another East Germany and Yugoslavia, once these two nations in the top 10 economies of the world as of the late 1980s before their very demise and they were the harbinger of the fall of the USSR or Soviet Bloc in the early 90s. The problem is something is wrong with the golden state's tarnished reptuation of being a well run strong huge economy of its own surpassing most of the USA's 50 states, as well Greece is the most affected victim of the Euro-zone's economic disease so far. The symbols of western civilization and the 20th century's successful experiments of (social) democracy and capitalism, as well fiscal conservatism (or the "free market") and liberal orientation, are examples of how systems rise, peak and fall in world history, because no state or national government is immortal...and systems can still be saved or remodeled to survive or return back to its former position or status previously held: The age of progress and prosperity is over, now we have downsizing and austerity.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Mike the Autist-ic

[+and-then]

I suspect that severe austerity is in Cali's future (as well as the rest of the US) but other than possibly reducing the number of illegals I'm not sure what good austerity will accomplish. I also wonder if OWS might morph into a true state of violent, chaotic protest that creates more problems than it solves.

[Indiogene]

I suspect that severe austerity is in Cali's future (as well as the rest of the US) but other than possibly reducing the number of illegals I'm not sure what good austerity will accomplish. I also wonder if OWS might morph into a true state of violent, chaotic protest that creates more problems than it solves.

Cal. grew too much, planned little to expand public social services anyway. I put the blame square at the state's Republican party of the 1980s and 90s, then you have the Governator claimed to be a fiscal conservative continued to pander for social Liberal causes. Reagan as well the Brown family and Grey Davis did little to reverse the trend of self-destruction the state treasury was headed to...and we fell for it: The "Surplus state" 30 or 40 years ago to the "state of emergency" but whatever happens in California doesn't stay where it belongs.

I don't blame immigrants whether legal or not, minorities, low-income people or anyone on state or county public social services (like myself and much of my family per se), but we have a generally high level of fraud, abuse and corruption within the doles of the state public social service system to not only get underfunded, it's overused for the wrong reasons. And the state needs to attract and bring back big businesses as much as we can or whatever it takes to keep California in the "6th-10th" largest economies of the world, or have more jobs and people flee to nearby states and even other countries (recently, shocking news reports on Mexican nationals returning home to Mexico after a few years in the US due to lowering employment opportunities).

Edited May 14, 2012 by Mike the Autist-ic

[Socio]

Since there is no way to determine this number, your statement is pure speculation.

http://ivn.us/2011/02/04/pew-hispanic-center-california-leads-illegal-immigrant-population-though-national/

The latest estimates from the Pew Hispanic Center found that much of the country’s 2010 unauthorized immigrant population remained virtually unchanged from 2009. California, however, remained at the top of the pack, being home to the nation’s highest population of illegal immigrant residents and laborers.

[Varelse]

16 BILLION??? That's all? Chump change in Cali. They just need to make hollywood pay it's fair share. Plenty of rich and wealthy and unproductive movie stars all asking to have their taxes raised. There you go. Problem solved.

[+DieChecker]

Cal. grew too much, planned little to expand public social services anyway. I put the blame square at the state's Republican party of the 1980s and 90s, then you have the Governator claimed to be a fiscal conservative continued to pander for social Liberal causes. Reagan as well the Brown family and Grey Davis did little to reverse the trend of self-destruction the state treasury was headed to...and we fell for it: The "Surplus state" 30 or 40 years ago to the "state of emergency" but whatever happens in California doesn't stay where it belongs.

I don't blame immigrants whether legal or not, minorities, low-income people or anyone on state or county public social services (like myself and much of my family per se), but we have a generally high level of fraud, abuse and corruption within the doles of the state public social service system to not only get underfunded, it's overused for the wrong reasons. And the state needs to attract and bring back big businesses as much as we can or whatever it takes to keep California in the "6th-10th" largest economies of the world, or have more jobs and people flee to nearby states and even other countries (recently, shocking news reports on Mexican nationals returning home to Mexico after a few years in the US due to lowering employment opportunities).

I have to agree with the part about Fraud. I've read that 1/5th to 1/3rd of all government "entitlement" spending goes to fraudulent recipients. Government fraud is big buisiness. Probably as big as Big Oil and/or the Automobile Industry.

[+DieChecker]

16 BILLION??? That's all? Chump change in Cali. They just need to make hollywood pay it's fair share. Plenty of rich and wealthy and unproductive movie stars all asking to have their taxes raised. There you go. Problem solved.

How about they figure out the 160 most rich celebritys in California and get 100 million from each? Call it a one time "redistribution" tax.

Edited May 14, 2012 by DieChecker

[+and-then]

Cal. grew too much, planned little to expand public social services anyway. I put the blame square at the state's Republican party of the 1980s and 90s, then you have the Governator claimed to be a fiscal conservative continued to pander for social Liberal causes. Reagan as well the Brown family and Grey Davis did little to reverse the trend of self-destruction the state treasury was headed to...and we fell for it: The "Surplus state" 30 or 40 years ago to the "state of emergency" but whatever happens in California doesn't stay where it belongs.

I don't blame immigrants whether legal or not, minorities, low-income people or anyone on state or county public social services (like myself and much of my family per se), but we have a generally high level of fraud, abuse and corruption within the doles of the state public social service system to not only get underfunded, it's overused for the wrong reasons. And the state needs to attract and bring back big businesses as much as we can or whatever it takes to keep California in the "6th-10th" largest economies of the world, or have more jobs and people flee to nearby states and even other countries (recently, shocking news reports on Mexican nationals returning home to Mexico after a few years in the US due to lowering employment opportunities).

They leave because of the taxes and other costs of doing business. You can't blame a business for trying to make money. If they don't come up with a more sound and equitable system then the State becomes a bailout for the Federal government. If THAT happens then I'd expect some serious austerity a la Greece's situation. You can imagine how that will go down. I think the protests would quickly skip "angry" and rocket into chaos. Those kinds of deficits are driven by entitlements. Healthcare and pensions probably topping the list. It's a common story all over the nation but seems to be especially problematic in States where there are no "right to work" laws. Public Unions are so out of control that even FDR was against the idea.

[Ashotep]

How are unions out of control? I don't get it when people want to blame Unions for everything. Plenty of people in unions have taken concessions to help out the company they work for when quite often the CEO doesn't forgo his multi million bonus. I don't blame a company for wanting to make money, that's what they are there for but the employee needs to earn a living wage and work in safe conditions. It doesn't hurt to have enough job security they won't just fire you because they don't like the way you look or are getting older.

Sorry about my rant but unions are the least of California's problems. I think you can place some of their problem on their illegal immigrant population which entails the expense of health care, other social services, jail, etc. Then like one poster said the fraud in the system. That could take so many avenues, from people drawing welfare that don't need it to a higher up employees of the state having work done on their personal property and letting tax payers pay for it.

If things in California does get as bad as Greece you could very well see rioting in the streets. Take away someone's way of life and its scary. Desperate people do desperate things.

I just hope the whole country or anyones else's either, doesn't end up like Greece. I hope things gets better for Greece.

[ninjadude]

http://ivn.us/2011/0...hough-national/

estimates

[+and-then]

estimates

Considering that the info is being gathered on ILLEGALS, it's kind of hard to get a true, voluntary headcount, no? I'm not sure how extensive the role of illegal immigration is in the economic train wreck that is California today. But apparently something is being done wrong or there wouldn't be deficits larger than GDP's for many countries in the world. My money would be bet on healthcare costs and other union benefits driving the largest share of the deficit. And when the rest of the country has to bail them out, Cali is going to become VERY unpopular - just like Greece and just like Greece they are going to be treated like step children and told what goodies they can and can NOT have for the foreseeable future. Then the riots will start.

[ninjadude]

My money would be bet on healthcare costs and other union benefits driving the largest share of the deficit.

My money would be on REPUBLICAN TAX CUTS that reduced the amount of money coming in. California is not going become "unpopular".

[+and-then]

My money would be on REPUBLICAN TAX CUTS that reduced the amount of money coming in. California is not going become "unpopular".

When they come to the treasury, cap in hand, begging for a bailout - yeah, I really think they will be subjected to a stigma. And worse yet - when the bennies get cut off, cities might very well burn. No doubt those tax cuts reduced State income but Cali is like every where else in the world these days. The issue is how much spending is being done. If we spend $2 for every $1 we take in in taxes then we go bankrupt. So of course the left says - well lets just take in $3 in taxes (primarily from the "rich") only problem is that they then spend $4... do you see where that's goin' Dude? At some point we'd all just be working for the gubmint....

[+DieChecker]

How are unions out of control? I don't get it when people want to blame Unions for everything. Plenty of people in unions have taken concessions to help out the company they work for when quite often the CEO doesn't forgo his multi million bonus. I don't blame a company for wanting to make money, that's what they are there for but the employee needs to earn a living wage and work in safe conditions. It doesn't hurt to have enough job security they won't just fire you because they don't like the way you look or are getting older.

Sorry about my rant but unions are the least of California's problems. I think you can place some of their problem on their illegal immigrant population which entails the expense of health care, other social services, jail, etc. Then like one poster said the fraud in the system. That could take so many avenues, from people drawing welfare that don't need it to a higher up employees of the state having work done on their personal property and letting tax payers pay for it.

If things in California does get as bad as Greece you could very well see rioting in the streets. Take away someone's way of life and its scary. Desperate people do desperate things.

I just hope the whole country or anyones else's either, doesn't end up like Greece. I hope things gets better for Greece.

Unions cause problems when the exact same job can be done across a state border for 2/3rds the cost. When a high school drop out can join a union and make $30 an hour, rather then the $8 to $12 he would otherwise get, the union is artificially inflating that person's income. I think getting as much as you can is great, but if it puts your employer out of business or forces them to move, then you up the creek with multiple car payments, and a too big mortgage. It's been seen over and over and over across the nation. Unions strongarm employers into meeting their demands up till the point where it is less expensive to leave and then the employer leaves.

Look at the NBA Union strike last Fall. The players were given a reasonable deal, but it cut what they had from the last year. And they refused, so they got locked out. The Owners were getting ready to hire up lower level players when the union finally caved and accepted a deal.

True the union is there to get the best deal for the employee, but if it kills the employer, then it is not actually helping the employee it's killing him too.

Considering that the info is being gathered on ILLEGALS, it's kind of hard to get a true, voluntary headcount, no? I'm not sure how extensive the role of illegal immigration is in the economic train wreck that is California today. But apparently something is being done wrong or there wouldn't be deficits larger than GDP's for many countries in the world. My money would be bet on healthcare costs and other union benefits driving the largest share of the deficit. And when the rest of the country has to bail them out, Cali is going to become VERY unpopular - just like Greece and just like Greece they are going to be treated like step children and told what goodies they can and can NOT have for the foreseeable future. Then the riots will start.

I think the article said that quite a lot of government workers can get up to 100,000 a year and that they get to keep making that after they retire. So with the aging of the workforce and the Baby-boomers starting to retire, California is in for a financial hurt.

I think Gov Brown is doing what is right. He's cutting and trying to tax. But, I think that many will attempt to keep going as it was. Just like Greece is doing with their left leaning wins in their elections.

[tapirmusic]

I'd like to see California split up into 3 new states. Orange County and everything south of it could become South California. There is a huge military presence there and this entire area is quite conservative.

The next state can be L.A. up to San Francisco. Liberalism at it's finest!

North California can be everything north of San Francisco.

Then the citizens of California(s) could actually be represented by the governments of their choosings, instead of being at the mercy of the highly populated cities...

that would be nice.

[Varelse]

Shoot, along with the celebrities they can go after the thousands of useless unworking trust funders sitting on more useless money than they can ever spend or invest for real, good old fashioned growth. The money will technically come from their investments on a high note right now, which will be like turning air into gold.

[ninjadude]

And worse yet - when the bennies get cut off, cities might very well burn.

you really have a sad outlook on life.

So of course the left says - well lets just take in $3 in taxes (primarily from the "rich")

no that's not the case. Taxes should be returned to what they were before the Bush Tax cuts which caused most of the mess in the first place.