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Atheism - any contradictions or 'problems'?


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#271    David Henson

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 04:26 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 05 February 2013 - 03:20 PM, said:

Um, no.  You've got it completely backwards.  If something doesn't exist and one is reasonably sure of this, then it is fair to say one does not believe in its existence.  Anything else would be dishonest.  Since I would go further and say I am overwhelmingly sure of it, there is no way I could say anything else.

I agree, but that isn't to say by definition atheist isn't problematic. To me, the term Hitchens popularized is far more accurate. Antitheist. If the Bible calls Moses and the Judges of Israel gods, which it does, then there were gods. If a god can be anyone or anything mighty or venerated, which it can, then there are gods. If the existence of a god isn't necessary for it to qualify as a god, which it isn't, then the millions of gods there is and have been isn't dependent upon the belief of said existence by atheists or anyone else.

If I pick up a stick that looks like a bone and proclaim it to be my god then it is a god. It doesn't matter whether or not you believe in it.

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#272    Rlyeh

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 04:30 PM

View PostDavid Henson, on 05 February 2013 - 03:14 PM, said:

There is no tenet of atheism by definition that makes any such distinction. To say that atheists do not believe in the existence of gods only demonstrates either a desperate limitation of gods by definition or a profound ignorance on the subject.
Since you've brought up a definition of atheism that even atheists don't use, i.e. a straw man, I guess it is your ignorance on the subject that is to blame.

Edited by Rlyeh, 05 February 2013 - 04:31 PM.


#273    Frank Merton

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 04:31 PM

You completely lost me, although I have to say I don't like the word "antitheist."  I am not against theism, I just am not one.


#274    David Henson

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 04:47 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 05 February 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

Since you've brought up a definition of atheism that even atheists don't use, i.e. a straw man, I guess it is your ignorance on the subject that is to blame.

Atheists are a peculiar thinking people. If you try and define atheism they will angrily tell you that to be an atheist simply means that one doesn't believe in the existence of a god or gods. If you tell them that you were once an atheist they will angrily tell you that you must not have been a "real" atheist. This has happened to me dozens of times.

The primary argument is that atheism is the disbelief of gods, it denies the existence of gods. The methodology consists of nothing more than the practical common usage of the word God, but no such distinction within the basic tenant of atheism is given, besides, the common usage of a word doesn't negate the other possible uses. The other defense is that the other gods are metaphorical. This is false, because all gods are equally metaphorical in application. The very root of the Hebrew and Greek words for gods indicates this.

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#275    Tiggs

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 04:51 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 05 February 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

You completely lost me, although I have to say I don't like the word "antitheist."  I am not against theism, I just am not one.

Antitheist is the perfect description for the person PA described earlier - somebody who wants to destroy all theistic belief.

They're the subset of atheists who want everyone else to believe exactly what they believe. Atheist fundamentalist's, essentially.

Obviously, not all atheists are antitheists, just as not all theists are fundamentalists.

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#276    David Henson

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 05:00 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 05 February 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

You completely lost me, although I have to say I don't like the word "antitheist."  I am not against theism, I just am not one.

View PostTiggs, on 05 February 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

Antitheist is the perfect description for the person PA described earlier - somebody who wants to destroy all theistic belief.

They're the subset of atheists who want everyone else to believe exactly what they believe. Atheist fundamentalist's, essentially.

Obviously, not all atheists are antitheists, just as not all theists are fundamentalists.

I see where you could interpret it that way. When I think of the term antitheist I don't necessarily think in terms of out to destroy theism, I think of it much the same as the biblical term antichrist, meaning not only against but instead of Christ. An antichrist is anyone who is against or just not with Christ.

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#277    Frank Merton

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 05:03 PM

Saying not being with someone is the same as being against them is a propaganda trick as old as the book.


#278    Tiggs

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 05:05 PM

View PostDavid Henson, on 05 February 2013 - 04:47 PM, said:

Atheists are a peculiar thinking people. If you try and define atheism they will angrily tell you that to be an atheist simply means that one doesn't believe in the existence of a god or gods. If you tell them that you were once an atheist they will angrily tell you that you must not have been a "real" atheist. This has happened to me dozens of times.

Have you ever considered that the common denominator in all of these discussions where you appear to have issues with definitions -  is you?

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#279    David Henson

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 05:14 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 05 February 2013 - 05:03 PM, said:

Saying not being with someone is the same as being against them is a propaganda trick as old as the book.

I compared the term antitheist with antichrist. If you are not with him then you are not with him. Like if you are not with a certain driver of a car you are not with them. This means you are not necessarily against them, though you could be. It means that you are - simply not with them. That is how anti is used. anti bacterial is against bacteria, but antithesis is something opposite of. Not necessarily against.

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#280    White Crane Feather

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 05:17 PM

View PostTiggs, on 05 February 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:



Applied by whom? I don't recall mentioning the crusades.

What I do see is you pretending that the enforced abolition of religious worship by a totalitarian regime is exactly the same as an individual freely coming to the conclusion that there probably isn't a God.
Not at all. Im merely pointing out that it's not just theists that organize into destructive regimes and cultures. Atheists do it to. Some atheists seem to have their head in the sand about it.

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#281    David Henson

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 05:20 PM

View PostTiggs, on 05 February 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

Have you ever considered that the common denominator in all of these discussions where you appear to have issues with definitions -  is you?

Sometimes it is. Sometimes it isn't. Sometimes it is difficult to tell. Take religion for example. I loathe organized religion. But in a sense I'm religious. I consider religion to be, in its most basic and pure sense, simply a belief system. I'm religious, and I believe everyone is in the most basic sense. Everyone has a belief system which is strictly adhered to. Some people think in order to be religious you have to have a deity involved, and that isn't true. I acknowledge that I often have a different take on certain words, but in the case of gods and atheism I recognize this but obstinately persist.

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#282    Frank Merton

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 05:21 PM

I get the sense you are trying to create your own personal vocabulary for some reason.

Atheist -- someone who does not think there is such a thing as God.

Anti-theist -- someone who opposes theism.

Non-Christian -- someone who is not a Christian.

Anti-Christian -- someone who opposes Christianity

Antichrist -- a being prophesied in Revelation who plays some role in the end of days.

That is about as far as I'm going to go.


#283    Rlyeh

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 05:39 PM

View PostDavid Henson, on 05 February 2013 - 04:47 PM, said:

Atheists are a peculiar thinking people. If you try and define atheism they will angrily tell you that to be an atheist simply means that one doesn't believe in the existence of a god or gods. If you tell them that you were once an atheist they will angrily tell you that you must not have been a "real" atheist. This has happened to me dozens of times.
Says the guy who had just presented a definition of atheism in which even the semantics of the word god is rejected.
Perhaps you were one of the very few atheists who denied the word god existed?

Whatever the case, I think it is safe to say no atheist here adheres to such an asinine definition of atheism.

Edited by Rlyeh, 05 February 2013 - 05:42 PM.


#284    David Henson

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 05:51 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 05 February 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

I get the sense you are trying to create your own personal vocabulary for some reason.

Atheist -- someone who does not think there is such a thing as God.

Anti-theist -- someone who opposes theism.

Non-Christian -- someone who is not a Christian.

Anti-Christian -- someone who opposes Christianity

Antichrist -- a being prophesied in Revelation who plays some role in the end of days.

That is about as far as I'm going to go.

With the exception of antichrist I agree with those definitions. My protest against the term atheist has more to do with the defintion of the term god and gods used in atheist thinking. I ask for you to go one step further in your definitions. Define god(s).

The reason I disagree with atheist is because that isn't biblically accurate.

1 John 2:18, 22: Young children, it is the last hour, and, just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrists; from which fact we gain the knowledge that it is the last hour. Who is the liar if it is not the one that denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one that denies the Father and the Son.

2 John 1:7: For many deceivers have gone forth into the world, persons not confessing Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 05:56 PM

View PostDavid Henson, on 05 February 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

The reason I disagree with atheist is because that isn't biblically accurate.

1 John 2:18, 22: Young children, it is the last hour, and, just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now there have come to be many antichrists; from which fact we gain the knowledge that it is the last hour. Who is the liar if it is not the one that denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one that denies the Father and the Son.

2 John 1:7: For many deceivers have gone forth into the world, persons not confessing Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.

Doesn't this mean that Jews are the antichrist?





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