Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


- - - - -

Taxing the Rich


  • Please log in to reply
208 replies to this topic

#181    Tiggs

Tiggs

    Relax. It's only me.

  • 9,133 posts
  • Joined:30 Jan 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Orange County, California

  • Universe Service Pack 2 still needs patching.

Posted 17 December 2012 - 11:22 PM

View PostYamato, on 17 December 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

BS.

The median price of all houses and condos sold in the Golden State was $291,000 last month, up 2.1% from October and 19.3% from $244,000 in November 2011.

http://www.latimes.c...story?track=rss

Housing prices are up 19.3%.   Get a grip.

And again - from your source:

"He noted that a big factor in the rising median price is increased sales of high-end homes, which skew the results to the upside. Indexes that track specific home resales, such as Case-Shiller, show far lower price appreciation."

You'll note that I quoted that to you earlier. Not to mention linked you exactly the same article.

Perhaps you should go and look up the word "Median" and think about it for a bit.


Quote

Show me this memo where the core CPI used by hero Bernanke doesn't exclude food and energy.

"The inflation rate over the longer run is primarily determined by monetary policy, and hence the Committee has the ability to specify a longer-run goal for inflation. The Committee judges that inflation at the rate of 2 percent, as measured by the annual change in the price index for personal consumption expenditures, is most consistent over the longer run with the Federal Reserve's statutory mandate targets"

Et voila - and here's some press reaction to it, too.


#182    Yamato

Yamato

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,816 posts
  • Joined:08 Aug 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 17 December 2012 - 11:33 PM

View PostTiggs, on 17 December 2012 - 11:22 PM, said:

And again - from your source:

"He noted that a big factor in the rising median price is increased sales of high-end homes, which skew the results to the upside. Indexes that track specific home resales, such as Case-Shiller, show far lower price appreciation."

You'll note that I quoted that to you earlier. Not to mention linked you exactly the same article.

Perhaps you should go and look up the word "Median" and think about it for a bit.




"The inflation rate over the longer run is primarily determined by monetary policy, and hence the Committee has the ability to specify a longer-run goal for inflation. The Committee judges that inflation at the rate of 2 percent, as measured by the annual change in the price index for personal consumption expenditures, is most consistent over the longer run with the Federal Reserve's statutory mandate targets"

Et voila - and here's some press reaction to it, too.
"Determined by monetary policy"; they got that right.  And what horrid monetary policy it is, giving that Committee the ability to specify long range goals for inflation.   This isn't the government's job; to control prices.   That's the market's job.  Our fabulous price controllers from Washington are a poison that wipes out the middle class and hurts the poor the most. Can you not see your position always favors the earliest recipient of the capital and punishes the latest?   I do not accept the rich and powerful mortgaging the future of this country on the backs of our children and the poor by feeding the spenders of today, just so we can juice these holy numbers from the government like the GDP and CPI.

But what you quoted isn't a memo that Ben Bernanke is now including food and energy.   Look up the definition of the core CPI and that's how he warms the elite circle of money fixers in the committee.   Prices for food and energy would be a lot less volatile if the government got its maws out of both of them. How convenient that a problem that government causes is also the excuse to cause more of it, now just in other sectors of the economy.  

Aggregate indexes should be as inclusive as possible in order to be as accurate as possible.   When I tell you that housing prices are up 19.3% in California last year, that must include all of it, or else the number is horribly inaccurate.  That's the game we play with the CPI and it's shameful.

Edited by Yamato, 17 December 2012 - 11:48 PM.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#183    Yamato

Yamato

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,816 posts
  • Joined:08 Aug 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 17 December 2012 - 11:40 PM

Of course it's a median, that's why I'm able to accurately say that housing prices in California are up 19.3% in the past year.  I prefer the mean myself, but the median is equally as good.

The way one knows whether prices of something have gone up is by what that thing is selling for.   The sales price is the best predictor.  Based on actual sales, prices are up 19.3%.

Your digression into property values in LA going up 4% are statistical predictions made from the activity in the housing market, the prices at which properties are sold and leased for, or at least they're expected to sell and lease for.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#184    Tiggs

Tiggs

    Relax. It's only me.

  • 9,133 posts
  • Joined:30 Jan 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Orange County, California

  • Universe Service Pack 2 still needs patching.

Posted 18 December 2012 - 12:29 AM

View PostYamato, on 17 December 2012 - 11:33 PM, said:

"Determined by monetary policy"; they got that right.  And what horrid monetary policy it is, giving that Committee the ability to specify long range goals for inflation.   This isn't the government's job; to control prices.   That's the market's job.  Our fabulous price controllers from Washington are a poison that wipes out the middle class and hurts the poor the most. Can you not see your position always favors the earliest recipient of the capital and punishes the latest?   I do not accept the rich and powerful mortgaging the future of this country on the backs of our children and the poor by feeding the spenders of today, just so we can juice these holy numbers from the government like the GDP and CPI.

But what you quoted isn't a memo that Ben Bernanke is now including food and energy.   Look up the definition of the core CPI and that's how he warms the elite circle of money fixers in the committee.   Prices for food and energy would be a lot less volatile if the government got its maws out of both of them. How convenient that a problem that government causes is also the excuse to cause more of it, now just in other sectors of the economy.
  

And again. As per the Memo -  "as measured by the annual change in the price index for personal consumption expenditures".

They're not using core CPI any more.

View PostYamato, on 17 December 2012 - 11:40 PM, said:

Of course it's a median, that's why I'm able to accurately say that housing prices in California are up 19.3% in the past year.  I prefer the mean myself, but the median is equally as good.

The way one knows whether prices of something have gone up is by what that thing is selling for.   The sales price is the best predictor.  Based on actual sales, prices are up 19.3%.

Your digression into property values in LA going up 4% are statistical predictions made from the activity in the housing market, the prices at which properties are sold and leased for, or at least they're expected to sell and lease for.

Once upon a time, there were three little pigs, who owned a straw house, a wood house and a brick house.

The little pig who had bought a straw house bought it last year for $1,000. He sold it this year for $1,000.

The little pig who bought a wood house bought it two years ago for $10,000. He sold it this year for $10,000.

The little pig who bought a brick house bought it three years ago for $10 Squillion. He sold it this year for $10 Squillion.

And thus - the median prices of house sold went up 1,000% from last year.

Because last year, only one house sold, and it sold for $1,000.

This year, all three houses sold. The median value of those houses was $10,000.

Because that's the price of the house in the middle.

And so - in Yamato world, house prices have now gone up 1,000%.

Even though not a single one of those houses have actually changed in value.

Edited by Tiggs, 18 December 2012 - 12:29 AM.


#185    DieChecker

DieChecker

    I'm a Rogue Scholar

  • Member
  • 18,652 posts
  • Joined:21 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portland, Oregon, USA

  • Hey, I'm not wrong. I'm just not completely right.

Posted 18 December 2012 - 01:52 AM

View PostYamato, on 17 December 2012 - 09:49 PM, said:

The UK tried tax hikes on the rich and it produced LESS tax revenue.   Maybe we should do the same and expect a different result.  
I've read several articles where Famous French Celebrities are moving to Belgium and Switzerland, to escape escalating taxes in France on the Rich. The French press has been Booing them as un-patriotic, greedy and selfish. But, it is happening.

I agree it did not work for the British. Time will shortly tell if it will work for the French.

http://articles.lati...hy-tax-20121026

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#186    Yamato

Yamato

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,816 posts
  • Joined:08 Aug 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 18 December 2012 - 12:03 PM

View PostTiggs, on 18 December 2012 - 12:29 AM, said:

And again. As per the Memo -  "as measured by the annual change in the price index for personal consumption expenditures".

They're not using core CPI any more.



Once upon a time, there were three little pigs, who owned a straw house, a wood house and a brick house.

The little pig who had bought a straw house bought it last year for $1,000. He sold it this year for $1,000.

The little pig who bought a wood house bought it two years ago for $10,000. He sold it this year for $10,000.

The little pig who bought a brick house bought it three years ago for $10 Squillion. He sold it this year for $10 Squillion.

And thus - the median prices of house sold went up 1,000% from last year.

Because last year, only one house sold, and it sold for $1,000.

This year, all three houses sold. The median value of those houses was $10,000.

Because that's the price of the house in the middle.

And so - in Yamato world, house prices have now gone up 1,000%.

Even though not a single one of those houses have actually changed in value.
No, in my world the data set is larger than three, and the obfuscation continues when you're now telling me that only three houses sold in the state of California last year for your reply to have any bearing on reality    Unless the housing market is incalculably worse than I thought it was.   Further still, I said I preferred the mean over the median, which would have prevented your little piggie parable from having any inaccuracy in its result, even with an unrealistic sample size of three.

If you want to play this class warfare game to defend inflation and only wind up hurting the poor the most, if you're really this insulated from cost of living increases, if you want to make pretend with no evidence that the housing data I just provided is somehow due to a few very rich people selling very expensive houses to other very richer people, if you're so obedient to the powerful few who control you and tell you what your money should be worth, and what housing prices should be, while ignoring the central costs that the poor pay the most, that you can't even acknowledge inflation that your government doesn't want you to while you're supporting self-destructive monetary policy, I don't know how to help you.  I could recommend some Econ books so you won't have to tell me what no economist absolutely-ever said again, but I fear you won't understand it if you can't even get a layman news article about prices right.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#187    Tiggs

Tiggs

    Relax. It's only me.

  • 9,133 posts
  • Joined:30 Jan 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Orange County, California

  • Universe Service Pack 2 still needs patching.

Posted 18 December 2012 - 01:51 PM

View PostYamato, on 18 December 2012 - 12:03 PM, said:

No, in my world the data set is larger than three, and the obfuscation continues when you're now telling me that only three houses sold in the state of California last year for your reply to have any bearing on reality Unless the housing market is incalculably worse than I thought it was.

Yes, Yamato. What I'm telling you is only three houses sold in California last year, all of which were previously owned by pigs.

Or, perhaps - I'm just showing you a simplified example of why changes in the Median house price and inflation are two entirely different things.


Quote

Further still, I said I preferred the mean over the median, which would have prevented your little piggie parable from having any inaccuracy in its result, even with an unrealistic sample size of three.

Ah, I see. So - in Yamato world,  using the mean average - where we total all of the sales and divide by the number of sales made -  house prices would only have gone up by 3.3 Squillion x 10-1 percent.

Wonderful.


Quote

if you want to make pretend with no evidence that the housing data I just provided is somehow due to a few very rich people selling very expensive houses to other very richer people,

Yes. I have absolutely no evidence, apart from that sentence I keep continually quoting to you from the very same article:

"He noted that a big factor in the rising median price is increased sales of high-end homes, which skew the results to the upside. Indexes that track specific home resales, such as Case-Shiller, show far lower price appreciation."

This "increased sales of high-end homes". By George - It's almost as if very rich people are selling very expensive houses to other very rich people, isn't it?

Thank God it's not a big factor in the rising median price, right?

Because if there were - it would skew the results and make them look higher than the indexes that track the actual difference in changes in house price for a given house.


Quote

if you're so obedient to the powerful few who control you and tell you what your money should be worth, and what housing prices should be, while ignoring the central costs that the poor pay the most, that you can't even acknowledge inflation that your government doesn't want you to while you're supporting self-destructive monetary policy, I don't know how to help you.  I could recommend some Econ books so you won't have to tell me what no economist absolutely-ever said again, but I fear you won't understand it if you can't even get a layman news article about prices right.

I think I can safely say that you're quite possibly the last person in the Universe who I'd ever ask to recommend me some Econ books.

Since we've apparently reached the Ad Hominem stage of the conversation - as usual - our conversation is over.

Edited by Tiggs, 18 December 2012 - 04:10 PM.


#188    AsteroidX

AsteroidX

    Government Agent

  • Member
  • 3,570 posts
  • Joined:16 Dec 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Free America

  • it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security

Posted 18 December 2012 - 01:55 PM

There two opposing parties are getting closer to reaching an agreement. Dems want to raise taxes on anyone making over 400k a year...Rep have thrown out a figure today. Increase taxes for those making more then 1mil  a year.


#189    DieChecker

DieChecker

    I'm a Rogue Scholar

  • Member
  • 18,652 posts
  • Joined:21 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portland, Oregon, USA

  • Hey, I'm not wrong. I'm just not completely right.

Posted 18 December 2012 - 08:19 PM

Yeah. Surprisingly, it seems BOTH Obama and the Republicans are actually working toward compromise. We haven't seen this level of compromise in Obama's Administation.... ever?? Maybe he's going to go all "Clinton" on us and actually turn into a President that will do the work of the People.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#190    Yamato

Yamato

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,816 posts
  • Joined:08 Aug 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 19 December 2012 - 05:57 AM

View PostTiggs, on 18 December 2012 - 01:51 PM, said:

Yes, Yamato. What I'm telling you is only three houses sold in California last year, all of which were previously owned by pigs.

Or, perhaps - I'm just showing you a simplified example of why changes in the Median house price and inflation are two entirely different things.




Ah, I see. So - in Yamato world,  using the mean average - where we total all of the sales and divide by the number of sales made -  house prices would only have gone up by 3.3 Squillion x 10-1 percent.

Wonderful.




Yes. I have absolutely no evidence, apart from that sentence I keep continually quoting to you from the very same article:

"He noted that a big factor in the rising median price is increased sales of high-end homes, which skew the results to the upside. Indexes that track specific home resales, such as Case-Shiller, show far lower price appreciation."

This "increased sales of high-end homes". By George - It's almost as if very rich people are selling very expensive houses to other very rich people, isn't it?

Thank God it's not a big factor in the rising median price, right?

Because if there were - it would skew the results and make them look higher than the indexes that track the actual difference in changes in house price for a given house.




I think I can safely say that you're quite possibly the last person in the Universe who I'd ever ask to recommend me some Econ books.

Since we've apparently reached the Ad Hominem stage of the conversation - as usual - our conversation is over.
The median is immune to extreme values at either end of the price spectrum; that's why we use the median.   Regardless, if there is no low-priced real estate that's actually selling in California the past year and that's the excuse that you're making here, then that makes my own argument for me, because the lack of affordable prices is the problem that inflating the money supply causes.   So learning a little bit about statistics and why we prefer to use the median over the mean, and understanding the impact that sample size has on the accuracy of our measurements would be helpful here.  

There is no ad hominem in my reply.  Though it seems the kettle is calling the pot.

You might not like reading economics textbooks that prefer freedom of choice over government force and coercion but it might open your eyes a little bit to the idea of greater freedom and free market economics.  

Suggested reading list

Beginning:
'Understanding the Dollar Crisis' by Percy Greaves.

Intermediate:
'Causes of the Economic Crisis' by von Mises
'America's Great Depression' by Rothbard

Advanced:
'Choice in Currency' by Hayek
'Money, Bank Credit, and Economic Cycles' by Huerta de Soto

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#191    AsteroidX

AsteroidX

    Government Agent

  • Member
  • 3,570 posts
  • Joined:16 Dec 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Free America

  • it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security

Posted 19 December 2012 - 06:01 AM

I think the sarcasm in my post was missed. Lets say a compromise somewhere between 400k and 1m is had. No loopholes are closed to get the Reps down to 700mil a year and we raise 0$. The working class continues to suffer. They are not close to an agreement. They are close to saying **** it. Lets go on Christmas break.

and Obama and Reid does not make a deal. They then have to go back to there parties and sell it. Then the House has to radify it. The House holds the purstring of America. And its Republican.

Edited by AsteroidX, 19 December 2012 - 06:04 AM.


#192    Yamato

Yamato

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,816 posts
  • Joined:08 Aug 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 19 December 2012 - 06:24 AM

For extremely large sample sizes, like the total number of home sales in the state of California, use the median.

For much smaller sample sizes particularly where n=30 or less, use the mean.  

A sample size of three isn't statistically significant, no matter how much lube one uses on the numbers to work like we imagine it will.  If we're going to use and trust in statistics, let's use them right.  I can only make suggestions for things, such as how to make a CONSUMER price Index a lot more accurate.

Hiding government's failure in the sectors it manages  food and energy, and using "volatility" as the excuse for hiding it, and instead relying on bureau-cooked exclusionary numbers is economically and fundamentally unacceptable to me.    Yeah there's volatility alright, and and it's the government that's causing it.  It should wear it on its face and not find bureaucratically acceptable excuses for its failure.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#193    AsteroidX

AsteroidX

    Government Agent

  • Member
  • 3,570 posts
  • Joined:16 Dec 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Free America

  • it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security

Posted 19 December 2012 - 06:30 AM

Quote

You might not like reading economics textbooks that prefer freedom of choice over government force and coercion but it might open your eyes a little bit to the idea of greater freedom and free market economics.  

You can add several hundred more unemployed gun manufacture laborers (a skilled proffesion) and small business owners to your unemployment if thats part of your guys argument.


#194    Yamato

Yamato

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 10,816 posts
  • Joined:08 Aug 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 19 December 2012 - 06:32 AM

View PostAsteroidX, on 19 December 2012 - 06:30 AM, said:

You can add several hundred more unemployed gun manufacture laborers (a skilled proffesion) and small business owners to your unemployment if thats part of your guys argument.
The market should decide whether there's several hundred more unemployed gun manufacturers, not the government.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#195    AsteroidX

AsteroidX

    Government Agent

  • Member
  • 3,570 posts
  • Joined:16 Dec 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Free America

  • it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security

Posted 19 December 2012 - 06:33 AM

Theres a helluva lot of people that agree with you. I couldnt give you enough thumbs up.





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users