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Other side of gun ownership


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#406    F3SS

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 08:56 PM

View PostStellar, on 16 January 2013 - 08:54 PM, said:



Are speed limits not regulated? Does the government not have a list of people with licenses and the cara they own?
You're ignoring the question and the fact, again, that criminals aren't concerned about limits and laws.

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#407    green_dude777

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 08:59 PM

View PostStellar, on 16 January 2013 - 08:54 PM, said:

Are speed limits not regulated? Does the government not have a list of people with licenses and the cara they own?

This actually brings up an excellent point.  Licensing those who are allowed to posses a weapon. You wouldn't need to register anything, wouldn't need to ban any weapon.  In order to purchase a weapon, private or commercial, you just have to produce a valid gun license. You wouldn't need a registry, as no cars are registered to a license (they are registered to a person, but it isn't necessarily the licensed individual).

Thing is, just like all these regulation ideas, bad guys are still going to have weapons and no license...


#408    questionmark

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 09:11 PM

View Postgreen_dude777, on 16 January 2013 - 08:59 PM, said:

This actually brings up an excellent point.  Licensing those who are allowed to posses a weapon. You wouldn't need to register anything, wouldn't need to ban any weapon.  In order to purchase a weapon, private or commercial, you just have to produce a valid gun license. You wouldn't need a registry, as no cars are registered to a license (they are registered to a person, but it isn't necessarily the licensed individual).

Thing is, just like all these regulation ideas, bad guys are still going to have weapons and no license...

That still would not solve the problem of guns disappearing int thin air every year (and it is quite a lot). Given its dual use it is imperative to know who owns a gun and make it mandatory to report the loss of one to dry up the black market. As long as it costs a few bucks to buy a gun illegally petty holdups are productive. Once the gun costs real money they are not.

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#409    green_dude777

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 09:17 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 16 January 2013 - 09:11 PM, said:

That still would not solve the problem of guns disappearing int thin air every year (and it is quite a lot). Given its dual use it is imperative to know who owns a gun and make it mandatory to report the loss of one to dry up the black market. As long as it costs a few bucks to buy a gun illegally petty holdups are productive. Once the gun costs real money they are not.

I guess this is where our opinion differs;  I don't think you'll ever dry up the black market, even with a full on, gun collecting ban like some extremists want.


#410    questionmark

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 09:21 PM

View Postgreen_dude777, on 16 January 2013 - 09:17 PM, said:

I guess this is where our opinion differs;  I don't think you'll ever dry up the black market, even with a full on, gun collecting ban like some extremists want.

You don't have to dry it up, you just have to make it smaller and by that illegal guns more expensive. That would take the guns out of most petty crimes and leave the cops more time for the protection of the large targets.

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#411    aztek

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 09:22 PM

View Postgreen_dude777, on 16 January 2013 - 08:59 PM, said:

This actually brings up an excellent point.  Licensing those who are allowed to posses a weapon. You wouldn't need to register anything, wouldn't need to ban any weapon.  In order to purchase a weapon, private or commercial, you just have to produce a valid gun license. You wouldn't need a registry, as no cars are registered to a license (they are registered to a person, but it isn't necessarily the licensed individual).

Thing is, just like all these regulation ideas, bad guys are still going to have weapons and no license...
unfortunatly it is not like that.
where i live i have to have a lisence, and have to regester every gun,.my pistol serial is printed on my pistol lisence, for rifles i must have regestration paper(just like cars in my state).
one doesn't cancel the other unfortunatly.

Edited by aztek, 16 January 2013 - 09:22 PM.

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#412    green_dude777

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 09:38 PM

View Postaztek, on 16 January 2013 - 09:22 PM, said:

unfortunatly it is not like that.
where i live i have to have a lisence, and have to regester every gun,.my pistol serial is printed on my pistol lisence, for rifles i must have regestration paper(just like cars in my state).
one doesn't cancel the other unfortunatly.

For clarity, I was speaking as a hypothetical, not what is actually being practiced.  It was to liken what we do for vehicles and drivers to guns and gun users.

I personally will never live in New York, I'm on the opposite side of the spectrum right now... Phoenix, Arizona.


#413    Yamato

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 09:38 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 16 January 2013 - 09:21 PM, said:

You don't have to dry it up, you just have to make it smaller and by that illegal guns more expensive. That would take the guns out of most petty crimes and leave the cops more time for the protection of the large targets.
Yeah like the federal government.

That's the language of prohibition.  Just gotta "dry it up" huh?    Prohibitionist policy is a total failure and wasting anymore money on the idea won't achieve a different result today just because it happens to be guns.   Every market that's forcibly controlled turns black.   People will start building guns in their basement.   Then we'll have to ban the new materials that make those new guns being made in basements, and the money wasting racket will drone ever on until we come to our senses and put an end to it.   We've got to stop the government from its current prohibition, not pile on more of it.

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#414    MissMelsWell

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 03:38 AM

So I'll say this again because I think it's important.

I have a close friend who is a paralegal and she works for the DA. She reads pretty much every police report in the area and does redactions, mailings to the courts and defense attorneys. She also fullfils public information requests.

Her experience is that most gun crimes, either shootings, or brandishings, the majority are of a domestic nature: within the home (spousal violence, arguments among friends etc...),suicide, and accidental. NOT home break ins, NOT gang or intruder activity... in fact, she sees very few reports come across her desk that involve a break in or armed robbery when compared to the domestic. They happen, but they are not the norm. The domestic cases are the norm.

In all her years of working in this capacity (4 years), she's never seen a report come across her desk where a home owner protected himself with  a firearm. (unless you want to count the guy that neary killed his neighbors toddler because he thought he was shoooting at invisible mummies).

Of all the people I know who have been involved in a gun related incident... NONE of them were home defense either. Had one friend accidentally shoot his toes off right in front of me! And he was retired military and highly trained!

Edited by MissMelsWell, 17 January 2013 - 03:42 AM.

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#415    Michelle

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 03:54 AM

With all due respect, MissMel, that may be the case where you live, but not everywhere. I would have been raped in the woods by three men if I hadn't had a gun with me. Nobody more than likely would have found my body for years if and when it came to that. I personally know four people over the years who's lives were saved because they had a gun in the house during home invasions. I could link to several articles in the news from the city I live in just in the last few months where people killed the intruder during a home invasion. Last week one homeowner, in a nearby suburb, held a crazed guy at gunpoint until the police showed up. He wasn't armed with a gun, but he was out of his mind on something and determined to harm someone. Two people had to fire near him to get him to lay on the ground and wait for the police.

I have several police officer friends and I hear stories that are never in the news. We aren't all so lucky as to not have gangs that have to be dealt with on a daily basis. Granted, a huge amount of cases are not random and are among people that know each other, but knowing what I know I'm not going to count on that.

Edited by Michelle, 17 January 2013 - 04:04 AM.


#416    acidhead

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 04:03 AM

In Canada the majority of shootings are gang related and by law enforcement...... that's because most people do not have a gun.... I don't own a gun.... and I don't trust my GOV in the least.

EDITED to add:  I don't even trust the banks because they stole money from my account(it was in the fine print when they changed their regulations last year in response to the Recession) I have zero use for a bank except to cash clients cheques for cash which I take home with me.

Edited by acidhead, 17 January 2013 - 04:05 AM.

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#417    Michelle

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 04:10 AM

View Postacidhead, on 17 January 2013 - 04:03 AM, said:

In Canada the majority of shootings are gang related and by law enforcement...... that's because most people do not have a gun.... I don't own a gun.... and I don't trust my GOV in the least.

EDITED to add:  I don't even trust the banks because they stole money from my account(it was in the fine print when they changed their regulations last year in response to the Recession) I have zero use for a bank except to cash clients cheques for cash which I take home with me.

They are here too, acid. The problem is they have intitiations that involve the average, innocent citizen which makes them hard to ignore. It's too bad when they try to shoot each other they don't have better aim.


#418    MissMelsWell

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 04:29 AM

So I live in Seattle. My friends works in the area (not the city of Seattle)... probably one of the most high crime areas in the state. There is certainly plenty of gang activity in the area she serves. Crime is high south of the city. The area she serves is low to low middle class income. The area has a lot of both light and heavy industry; mostly aircraft and shipping/port related. The area she serves is the second most culturally diverse area in the state. (also let me state that the most culturally diverse city in the state is also the most wealthy city in the state)

The gang violence, robberies etc... she sees are mostly picked up by the news. Generally when she sees them come across her desk, she's already read about the cases in the media. It's the domestic cases where two brothers assault each other or a husband and wife or friends having an argument that never make the media, and they are the vast majority of what she sees.

I'm not saying that people never defend their homes from intruders, or fend off attackers with their firearms... but it's awfully rare when compared to the other domestic cases you never hear about.

I guess my point is really that if that firearm is locked up in a safe and with a trigger lock, and a bit more difficult to access, it's a security by obscurity measure. It gives the person thinking about using it pause before they actually unlock that safe and unlock that trigger lock. I liken it to something I do at work... I disable all zip files coming in though email. My users can open them if they take a minute to save them and rename them... but they almost never do open a virus sent that way because those two extra stupid steps force them to think about what they're doing and think twice about whether opening it and possibly causing a big problem is worth the effort.

If I was going to trust anyone with a firearm in this thread... it would be you and HerNIbs.

Edited by MissMelsWell, 17 January 2013 - 04:38 AM.

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#419    Michelle

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 04:43 AM

View PostMissMelsWell, on 17 January 2013 - 04:29 AM, said:

I guess my point is really that if that firearm is locked up in a safe and with a trigger lock, and a bit more difficult to access, it's a security by obscurity measure. It gives the person thinking about using it pause before they actually unlock that safe and unlock that trigger lock. I liken it to something I do at work... I disable all zip files coming in though email. My users can open them if they take a minute to save them and rename them... but they almost never do open a virus sent that way because those two extra stupid steps force them to think about what they're doing and think twice about whether opening it and possibly causing a big problem is worth the effort.

Sometimes there is no time to pause...work is not life or death. What if the victim could have had access to a gun? Or do you think in family arguments both are the aggressor and no one is the victim?

Edited by Michelle, 17 January 2013 - 04:51 AM.


#420    aztek

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 04:57 AM

how the ****** working on computer, can be compared to possible, life and death situation when seconds matter???

let alone with a gun locked in a safe WITH a trigger lock on??

Edited by aztek, 17 January 2013 - 05:00 AM.

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