11638 replies to this topic

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 24 May 2011 - 07:35 PM, said:

I just read the respons to my question to Olivier van Renswoude.

Here's the link: http://taaldacht.nl/...ngen-en-vragen/

Thanks Abe,

He appears to not have studied the OLB himself, and therefore his conclusion at the end is worthless, as he is just parrotting Jensma.

Here's his imo relevant quotes, with my improvised translation:

DUTCH
Mijn kennis van het Oudfries is niet dusdanig dat ik er als een deskundige over kan spreken. Niettemin, het verbaast me niets dat het Oera Linda-boek kenmerken vertoont van Rüstringer dialect (...) De oudste (volledige) Oudfriese manuscripten die zijn overgeleverd zijn immers in dat dialect (...)
Opvallend aan het dialect, vergeleken met de andere Oudfriese dialecten, is de hogere frequentie van volle klinkers in onbeklemtoonde lettergrepen. Vergelijk Rüstrings godi ‘aan/bij god’ met Oudwestfries gode.

ENGLISH
I don't have enough knowledge of Oldfrisian to speak about it with authority. But that the OLB shows similarities with the Rustringian dialect does not surprise me (...) The oldest (complete) Oldfrisian manuscripts that survived are in that dialect (...)
A striking quality of the dialect, when compared to the other Oldfrisian dialects, is the high frequency of full vowels in unstressed syllables. Compare Rustringian godi 'to/with god' with Oldwestfrisian gode.

I hope Knul and you will note that while "GODE" is used in the OLB, "GODI" is not.

Also, these oldest surviving manuscripts are from during or after the Christenings (late Middle Ages), when most of the cultural genocide had already taken place. In the time of the Roman occupation, the (West) Frisians were known seafaring traders and they even saved a Roman fleet. It's highly unlikely that they were illiterate. They must have had a written tradition of which nothing known (besides OLB?) is left. Untill other sources are found (private or secret archives?), we can only try to reconstruct their language using the descending and related languages.

If the OLB was created as a reconstruction of the ancient language, it is a brilliant one (imo).

Edited by Otharus, 25 May 2011 - 05:39 AM.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 25 May 2011 - 05:37 AM, said:

Thanks Abe,

He appears to not have studied the OLB himself, and therefore his conclusion at the end is worthless, as he is just parrotting Jensma.

Here's his imo relevant quotes, with my improvised translation:

DUTCH
Mijn kennis van het Oudfries is niet dusdanig dat ik er als een deskundige over kan spreken. Niettemin, het verbaast me niets dat het Oera Linda-boek kenmerken vertoont van Rüstringer dialect (...) De oudste (volledige) Oudfriese manuscripten die zijn overgeleverd zijn immers in dat dialect (...)
Opvallend aan het dialect, vergeleken met de andere Oudfriese dialecten, is de hogere frequentie van volle klinkers in onbeklemtoonde lettergrepen. Vergelijk Rüstrings godi ‘aan/bij god’ met Oudwestfries gode.

ENGLISH
I don't have enough knowledge of Oldfrisian to speak about it with authority. But that the OLB shows similarities with the Rustringian dialect does not surprise me (...) The oldest (complete) Oldfrisian manuscripts that survived are in that dialect (...)
A striking quality of the dialect, when compared to the other Oldfrisian dialects, is the high frequency of full vowels in unstressed syllables. Compare Rustringian godi 'to/with god' with Oldwestfrisian gode.

I hope Knul and you will note that while "GODE" is used in the OLB, "GODI" is not.

Also, these oldest surviving manuscripts are from during or after the Christenings (late Middle Ages), when most of the cultural genocide had already taken place. In the time of the Roman occupation, the (West) Frisians were known seafaring traders and they even saved a Roman fleet. It's highly unlikely that they were illiterate. They must have had a written tradition of which nothing known (besides OLB?) is left. Untill other sources are found (private or secret archives?), we can only try to reconstruct their language using the descending and related languages.

If the OLB was created as a reconstruction of the ancient language, it is a brilliant one (imo).

Van Renswoude never mentions Jensma. I gave him the link to Knul's website so he could read the OLB, and I also gave him a link to those 13th century Rüstringer laws. I think he compared the two languages which must be a lot easier for a linguist then for a layman.

==

Both GODE and GODI are used in the OLB. GODE = good, GODI = god, GODIS = gods, AFGODIE - idolatry.



THE SECOND PART OF THE OLDEST DOCTRINE.

That every creature is a part of Wr-alda’s eternal being, that they have stolen from us; but their false reasoning and ungovernable pride have brought them on the road to ruin. If their spirit was Wr-alda’s spirit, then Wr-alda would be very stupid, instead of being sensible and wise; for their spirit labours to create beautiful statues, which they afterwards worship. Finda’s people are a wicked people, for although they presumptuously pretend among themselves that they are gods, they proclaim the unconsecrated false gods, and declare everywhere that these idols created the world and all that therein is—greedy idols, full of envy and anger, who desire to be served and honoured by the people, and who exact bloody sacrifices and rich offerings; but these presumptuous and false men, who call themselves God’s servants and priests, receive and collect everything in the name of the idols that have no real existence, for their own benefit.

Thaet aider skepsle en dêl is fon Wr.aldas vnendlik wêsa, thaet haevon hja fon vs gâbad.
Men hjara falxe rêdne aend hjara taemlâse hâchfarenhêd heth ra vppen dwâlwêi brocht. Wêre hjara gâst Wr.aldas gâst, sâ skolde Wr.alda êl dvm wêsa in stêde fon licht and wis. Hwand hjara gâst slâvth him selva immer of vmbe skêne bylda to mâkjande, thêr y aefternêi anbid. Men Findas folk is en aerg folk, hwand afskên tha wanwysa thêra hjara selva wis mâkja thaet hja drochtne send, sa haevon hja to fâra tha vnewida falxa drochtne eskêpen, to kêthande allerwêikes, thaet thissa drochtne Wr.alda eskêpen haeve, mith al hwat thêr inne is; gyriga drochtne fvl nyd aend torn, tham êrath aend thjanath willath wêsa thrvch tha maenniska, thêr blod aend offer willa aend skât askja. Men thi wanwisa falxa manna, tham hjara selva godis skalka jeftha prestera nôma lêta, bürath aend sâmnath aend gethath aldam to fâra drochtne thêr er navt ne send, vmbet selva to bihaldande.


---

HERE IS THE WRITING WITH GOSA’S ADVICE

As thus our language opens the way to happiness and blessedness, and thus helps to guard against evil inclinations, it is rightly named the language of the gods, and all those by whom it is held in honour derive honour from it.  But what has happened? As soon as among our half brothers and sisters deceivers arose, who gave themselves out as servants of the good, it soon became otherwise.

Nêidam vsa tâle thus to luk aend to sêlighêd wêjath, aend thus mith wâkt aejen tha bosa nygonga, thêrvmbe is hju mith alle rjucht godis tâle hêten, aend alle tha jêna hwam hja an êre halda hâvath thêr gôme fon.  Tha hwat is bêrth. Alsa ring thêr mong vsa halfsusterum aend halfbrotharum bidrogar vpkêmon, tham hjara selva fori godis skalkum utjavon, also ring is thaet owers wrden.

(Btw, you can see the English translator had a bit of a problem: first he translates 'godis' as gods, and then as 'the good'. It must be 'gods')

--

HERE IS MY COUNSEL.


Any one who is bitten by them is sure to die, as Irtha has given no antidote to their poison, because the people have so given themselves up to idolatry.

Is môn thêr fon byten, sâ mot môn staerva, hwand aejen hjara fenyn heth Irtha nêna krûda jêven, ôlsânâka tha minska hjara selva haevon skildich mâkt an afgodie.


--


LETTER OF RIKA THE OUDMAAGD, READ AT STAVEREN AT THE JUUL FEAST.

My greeting to all of you whose forefathers came here with Friso. According to what you say, you are not guilty of idolatry.


Brêf fon Rika thju aldfam, vpseid to Staveren by-t jolfêrste.

Jy alle hwam his êthla mith Friso hir kêmon, min êrbydnesse to jo. Alsa jy mêne, send jy vnskeldich an afgodie.


--


Reintja was already come back, and went angrily to Prontlik the mother, at Texland, to complain. Prontlik sent out messengers in all directions, who proclaimed that Askar is gone over to Idolatry.

Rêintja was al to bek kvmen, aend gvng nydich nêi Prontlik thju Moder et Texland bârja. Prontlik gvng to aend sand allerwêikes bodon thêr ûtkêthon, Askar is vrjêven an afgodie.

[Abramelin]

Heh, you should have been glad Van Renswoude used that word, "GODI" as an example: in the Rüstringer Laws it is never used, but it IS used in the Fivelgo Laws (as GODIS):

http://www.rzuser.un...drw/t/t7058.htm

.. and it means 'good' and 'godly'.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 25 May 2011 - 12:11 PM.

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 25 May 2011 - 11:48 AM, said:

Both GODE and GODI are used in the OLB. GODE = good, GODI = god, GODIS = gods, AFGODIE - idolatry.

GODIS (= god-his) and AFGODIE (= afgoderie) are both used yes, but I cannot find your (van Renswoudes) GODI...

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 25 May 2011 - 12:10 PM, said:

Heh, you should have been glad Van Renswoude used that word, "GODI" as an example: in the Rüstringer Laws it is never used, but it IS used in the Fivelgo Laws (as GODIS):

GODI is not the same as GODIS.

Could van Renswoude have been mistaken?

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 25 May 2011 - 03:02 PM, said:

GODI is not the same as GODIS.

Could van Renswoude have been mistaken?

As you can see for yourself on the Taaldacht site, I asked Van Renswoude about it.

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 25 May 2011 - 11:48 AM, said:

Van Renswoude ...
I think he compared the two languages which must be a lot easier for a linguist then for a layman.

This reminds me of another so-called 'linguist' (Jailsmurf), who accused me (being a 'layman') of making 'linguistic blunders', but when I asked him to give just one example he never answered (see quote below).

Therefore, I repeat: I don't think much of linguists.

And Beckering Vinkers' work qualifies as a bad joke.

Having an academic title is by no means a guarantee for being right.

BTW you're not even sure if van Renswoude is a linguist, are you? It doesn't say so on his website.

Otharus, on 22 December 2010 - 06:05 AM, said:

I don't think much of linguist scholars as they have never seriously taken part in the Oera Linda debate (as far as I know). (Indeed I don't count Beckering (1876), as his publication was highly emotional).
They should by now be able to once and for all make it understood why the language of OLB cannot be authentic, if that is so obvious.

On this "alternative history" forum, alternative etymology should be just as valid a tool to try and explain an ancient mystery. Not hindered by existing thinking patterns (I studied something completely different at University), I may with a fresh look (occasionally) see truth that official historians or linguists don't want to see because it is too much in conflict with their (professors') paradigm.

No doubt you are more knowledgeable of English than me, but what do you know of other Northern European languages?
My most serious attempts are based on comparisons with Swedish, German and Dutch.

My 'etymology' of "smurf" was an obvious (I hope) joke.
If the others made you slap your knees too, that says more about your sense of humor, than that it is proof that I am wrong. Please don't be vague and give examples of my supposed blunders.

Edited by Otharus, 26 May 2011 - 07:19 AM.

[Otharus]

Otharus, on 26 May 2011 - 07:04 AM, said:

This reminds me of another so-called 'linguist' (Jailsmurf)...

I should add his correct name, so that he may find this post: "Jaylemurph, Scientician!"

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 26 May 2011 - 07:04 AM, said:

This reminds me of another so-called 'linguist' (Jailsmurf), who accused me (being a 'layman') of making 'linguistic blunders', but when I asked him to give just one example he never answered (see quote below).

Therefore, I repeat: I don't think much of linguists.

And Beckering Vinkers' work qualifies as a bad joke.

Having an academic title is by no means a guarantee for being right.

BTW you're not even sure if van Renswoude is a linguist, are you? It doesn't say so on his website.

LOL, I think you are right: according to this site he's a 'musing lover of languages' !!

Olivier van Renswoude, een mijmerende taalliefhebber, is begonnen met het weblog Taaldacht.http://www.taalpost....f/html/1049.htm

I must admit I always assumed he was a linguist, just by reading his many posts on Nordic languages on his "Taaldacht" blog.

But even though he may not be a professional, he sure knows AND uses the works of professionals.

So, to his defense, I'd like to say he never claimed to be a linguist.

I remember what Kmt_sesh once said - correct me if I'm wrong, anyone -  and that was something like that he didn't officially study Egyptology on a university, but that he did study it for over 20 years, and now even teaches it.

To me that means he knows what he is talking about, and it shows. I'd like to think the same of Van Renswoude.

However, I can't speak for Jaylemuph. He's not here anymore to defend himself, but he sure did give me the impression of someone knowledgable who got more and more annoyed when people abused language and etymology and thought they were practising linguistics. But he was not like a "Copacetic" or a Kmt_sesh who both appear never to tired to explain what they explained a zillion times. Maybe Jaylemurph had his fill...

[Abramelin]

jaylemurph, on 21 December 2010 - 11:20 PM, said:

Then that's what separates you from linguists and other people knowledgeable of language. It's a specifically literary version of the common phenomenon (here, anyway) of seeing exactly what you want to.

There's a word in Persian that's roughly pronounced "bad" and means roughly the same thing as the English word. It has no meaningful relationship to the English word. The only useful linguistic principle it shows is that there are only so many sounds the human mouth (well, head) can make, and only so many ways ways those sounds can be put together.

(And I've seen some of your alleged etymologies. I'll have to look up marabod and apologize. They rank up there with some of Jacobus de Voriagne's knee-slappers in the Legenda Aurea.)

--Jaylemurph

Otharus, this is Jaylemurph's post, and now I think it was his snide remark that put you off.

I was here during the time "legionromanes" still posted here (before he got banned) and he had studied Sumerology and ancient languages of Mesopotamia (or something like that). If you were willing to accept the way he talked (and I sure had to sigh deep many times when reading his responses, lol) then you could learn a lot.

And I think that is the main problem here, and on about every discussion site: ego.

As soon as we feel offended or made to look ridiculous, we dig in and and start shooting back.

We are here all discussing the OLB; believers and skeptics.

But have I ever called you nicknames? Like All Wine for Alewyn, or Puzzled for Puzzler, or Otter for Otharus?

OK, so now I did, but I made them up just now. You understand that as soon as someone starts using ridiculous nicknames for someone s/he is discussing with, then the level drops a few inches, right?

Jaylemurph attacked your ideas, not you.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 26 May 2011 - 12:03 PM.

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 26 May 2011 - 11:51 AM, said:

Otharus, this is Jaylemurph's post, and now I think it was his snide remark that put you off.
...
Jaylemurph attacked your ideas, not you.

I have always liked it when others seriously attacked or challenged my posts. I herewith encourage all to please keep doing that.

What annoyed me was that he suggested that some of my posts were ridiculous ('knee-slappers'), but when I asked him to give at least one example, he did not answer (which to me means he was bluffing).

The name-play may be a Westfrisian (or childish, I don't care) thing, I did that before with Tony and Knul in some of my lighter moods.
I did not intend to hurt their feelings with that and cannot imagine that they felt hurt about it. If they did, here's my my sincere apologies.

To call someone's post nonsense, without explaining why, now that's bad manners (imo).

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 26 May 2011 - 03:30 PM, said:

I have always liked it when others seriously attacked or challenged my posts. I herewith encourage all to please keep doing that.

What annoyed me was that he suggested that some of my posts were ridiculous ('knee-slappers'), but when I asked him to give at least one example, he did not answer (which to me means he was bluffing).

The name-play may be a Westfrisian (or childish, I don't care) thing, I did that before with Tony and Knul in some of my lighter moods.
I did not intend to hurt their feelings with that and cannot imagine that they felt hurt about it. If they did, here's my my sincere apologies.

To call someone's post nonsense, without explaining why, now that's bad manners (imo).

I am not sure, but soon after that post Jaylemurph disappeared alltogether. He came back much later, telling us he had been very sick (CVA). I think he had more serious stuff on his mind than posting on UM...


++++

EDIT:

Btw, Jaylemurph gave you a hint:

"And I've seen some of your alleged etymologies. I'll have to look up marabod and apologize. They rank up there with some of Jacobus de Voriagne's knee-slappers in the Legenda Aurea."

Lol, you focussed on 'knee-slappers', but forgot about this Jacobus de Voriagne.

Fanciful etymologies

The book sought to compile traditional lore about all of the saints venerated at the time of its compilation. Jacobus de Voragine typically begins with an (often fanciful) etymology for the saint's name. An example (in Caxton's translation) shows his method:

Silvester is said of sile or sol which is light, and of terra the earth, as who saith the light of the earth, that is of the church. Or Silvester is said of silvas and of trahens, that is to say he was drawing wild men and hard unto the faith. Or as it is said in glossario, Silvester is to say green, that is to wit, green in contemplation of heavenly things, and a toiler in labouring himself; he was umbrous or shadowous. That is to say he was cold and refrigate from all concupiscence of the flesh, full of boughs among the trees of heaven.

As a Latin author, Jacobus de Voragine must have known that Silvester, a relatively common Latin name, simply meant "from the forest". The correct derivation is alluded to in the text, but set out in parallel to fanciful ones that lexicographers would consider quite wide of the mark. Even the "correct" explanations (silvas, "forest", and the mention of green boughs) are used as the basis for an allegorical interpretation. Jacobus de Voragine's etymologies had different goals from modern etymologies, and cannot be judged by the same standards. Jacobus de Voragine's etymologies have parallels in Isidore of Seville's Etymologiae, in which linguistically accurate derivations are set out beside allegorical and figurative explanations.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Golden_Legend

.

Edited by Abramelin, 26 May 2011 - 03:54 PM.

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 26 May 2011 - 03:38 PM, said:

Lol, you focussed on 'knee-slappers', but forgot about this Jacobus de Voriagne.

I'm not impressed.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 26 May 2011 - 05:06 PM, said:

I'm not impressed.

OK, nobody expects you to be impressed, just that you got the message.

And the 'Silvester' example from the Wiki page should give us an idea what Jaylemurph considers to be a 'knee-slapper', lol.


And here you can find it all:

http://saints.sqpn.c...us-de-voragine/

Macarius is said of macha, which is as much to say as engine, and of ares, which is to say virtue. Or Macarius is said of macha, that is to say smiting, and of rio, that is to say master, for he was ingenious against the fallacy of the devil, virtuous of life, smiting in chastening his body, and master in the governance of prelacy.

http://saints.sqpn.com/golden150.htm


Macarius means "Blessed".


I never did look into this, but now I did, I know why Jaylemurph brought it up. It is very similar to the 'etymology' in the OLB.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 26 May 2011 - 05:58 PM.

[Abramelin]

Now I have a question for you:

"In the heart of Findasland, upon a mountain, lies a plain called Kasamyr (Cashmere) that is “extraordinary.”

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/

Have you found any explanation for that etymology? I didn't.

There are many times that I think the 19th century writers of the OLB gave us clues.

+++

EDIT:

The name "Kashmir" has to do with water or a lake: http://en.wikipedia....shmir#Etymology

I have never found anything hinting at it having to do with anything 'extraordinary'.

Most people just gobbled it up, and never gave it a second thought.


This is the line in the original OLB language:

"In-t hirte fon Findas lând vppet berchta lêid en del, thêr is kêthen Kasamyr, thet is sjeldsum"

In Dutch:
"In 't hart van Finda's land op een berg leit een dal, daar is ??? Kasamyr, dat is zeldzaam"


And "sjeldsum" is "zeldzaam" in modern Dutch, and it means "rare", not "extraordinary".

Btw.. funny that I can use (medieval) Dutch to translate a language that is supposed to be a language of like 4000 years old, heh.

++++++

EDIT:

"kêthen" is the Dutch "geheten" or "known as" or "known by" in English.

It took me a while, but I finally got it.

And here's a confirmation:

ke-th-ene 14, afries., F.: nhd. Verkündung, Bekanntmachung, Urteilsverkündung;
ne. proclamation; Q.: B, AA 17; E.: s. kÐ-th-a; L.: Hh 57b, Rh 868a, AA 17

http://www.koeblerge...ch/afries-K.pdf
.

Edited by Abramelin, 26 May 2011 - 07:09 PM.