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the bible and the goodness of our culture


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#16    me-wonders

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 02:19 AM

View Postredhen, on 23 December 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

You've touched on a lot of subjects, but your main question seems to be "How good is our culture?" And by that you mean American society and it's portrayed violent gun culture.

So how "good" is American culture? I only have to point out the extraordinary lengths of time people from other countries are willing to wait for a green card, or the desperate illegal methods others will take to live in the U.S.A.. America will always be a metaphor for freedom and justice.



If you live in a stone age, hunter-gatherer society, then your premise is granted, otherwise, it is not necessary to eat meat. If it is unnecessary and entails pain, suffering or death, it is by definition cruel.



Hitler was a vegetarian. Gee, what are we to conclude? Vegans are psychotic, Nazi, elementary school children murderers?
This fallacy is called "poisoning the well" and is not sound logic.

The number of illegals trying to enter the US has declined since the economic turn down.  The Illegal Mexican I worked with, could not have cared less about politics and freedom.  He was working in the US for the money, which he enjoyed spending.  He also sent money to his family in Mexico.  

Are you arguing a reverence for life is not important or that someone who eats meat can not be a reverent person?   Human beings have different metabolisms and some people do better with a meat diet.


#17    DieChecker

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 08:03 PM

View Postme-wonders, on 28 December 2012 - 01:45 AM, said:

Well, yes I will be intolerant of the whole congress who voted for the invasion of Iraq, and the Christian right who thought Bush was doing the will of God.  I am also on record for protesting that invasion from the time it was first mentioned as a possibility.  My record of speaking about the Military Industrial Complex is well known, and a thread about India is giving new me arguments against a western culture tied to the Christian idea that they are God's favored people and doing the will of God.
You do know that 60% plus of the US population is not "Christian Right", right? The "Christian Right" are not even powerful enough to prevent Same Sex Marriage in most states, or prevent Legalized Pot. You're making a minor religious (But Vocal) group into a boogieman. Just as those Religious Right have made Homosexuals into a boogieman, though they are only like 3% of the population.

Most Christians are simply good people. You want to judge a section of population by a minority sample. Just as taking black gangmembers as a sample should not be used to judge all black people.

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Did you watch the video before objecting to what I am saying?  Do you believe US Christians are God's favorite people and that they are doing the will of God, rather the will of corporations?
I believe the US Christians are Christians, and it is the Christian belief that they are correct in their traditions. Just as the Muslims, and Jews, and Hindus, and Buddists all believe in their own traditions. I believe that to a degree all Christians believe they are doing God's will, just as Obama, Nancy Peloci and Harry Reid (All Christians - and supposed Church goers) believe what they are doing is what God would have them do.

I'm not objecting to your video, I am objecting to a Blanket statement that all Christians are Bad or Evil, simply for being Christian. Which is what you were strongly implying was the case.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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#18    DieChecker

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 08:18 PM

View Postme-wonders, on 28 December 2012 - 01:53 AM, said:

I do not think it is silly to question a belief that mobilizes millions of people to accept a war against people who were no threat to the US.  Around the world this belief in being God's favored people, and has lead to injustice.   I meaning all the prejudices that goes with this belief, such as our military occupying Iran and blaming Iranians for the large number of people run over by military personnel, instead of making this intolerable.  Which is the same thing that lead to India rebelling against British rule.  With Christianity comes ideas about being God's favored people and God's will, and how things work, that I do not find agreeable.
Americans don't need religion to feel superior. We come by that naturally to every American who has been here a couple generations. Because it is true. We are the movers and shakers of this Era, just as the Romans and the British Empire were once upon a time. We make ourselves into the Favored People, and we don't need God to do that for us.

Western Nations come with the ideas and how things work, not Christians. That leaders are Christians is besides the point. These values have been with Western Civilization for a thousand years.

I think you must have meant Iraq and not Iran. We've not invaded Iran yet.

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We are the government.  Unfortunately, we do not know enough to govern ourselves, and have been like content cattle.   It is low wage earners who support the high standard of living that only a few enjoy, and it is reasonable for government to bring some balance into this reality.
That is a cop out way of saying, "No I do not give to charity." and "Helping others is the governments job.". Clearly you and others have internet service. That could feed a family of 4 each month if you gave it up.

It does not take a fortune to donate $25 a month... $600 a year to save a child from starvation, disease and lack of education.

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My Christians friends pray for the needy.  They don't have the money for charity.  The problem here is not their unwillingness to give, and not their greed.  The problem is they do not understand how things work, and like to believe a God will do what they can not figure out how to do.  They really, really want to believe their prayers are as good as actually doing something.  To me, this is a big problem!
Praying for others is Laudable, and Excellent, and if that is all you can do, then that is all you can do.... But, vollinteering is also free... if you have the time to spare.

The problem is that praying to God is not useless. And that if this is the only way they think they can get something done, then what is the harm in it? You just said they can't do anything (money, time...) but pray....

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#19    me-wonders

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 04:58 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 31 December 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:

Americans don't need religion to feel superior. We come by that naturally to every American who has been here a couple generations. Because it is true. We are the movers and shakers of this Era, just as the Romans and the British Empire were once upon a time. We make ourselves into the Favored People, and we don't need God to do that for us.

Western Nations come with the ideas and how things work, not Christians. That leaders are Christians is besides the point. These values have been with Western Civilization for a thousand years.

I think you must have meant Iraq and not Iran. We've not invaded Iran yet.


That is a cop out way of saying, "No I do not give to charity." and "Helping others is the governments job.". Clearly you and others have internet service. That could feed a family of 4 each month if you gave it up.

It does not take a fortune to donate $25 a month... $600 a year to save a child from starvation, disease and lack of education.


Praying for others is Laudable, and Excellent, and if that is all you can do, then that is all you can do.... But, vollinteering is also free... if you have the time to spare.

The problem is that praying to God is not useless. And that if this is the only way they think they can get something done, then what is the harm in it? You just said they can't do anything (money, time...) but pray....

Yes, I goofed.  I did mean Iraq.

I am pretty offended by your comment  "That is a cop out way of saying, "No I do not give to charity." and "Helping others is the governments job.". Clearly you and others have internet service. That could feed a family of 4 each month if you gave it up."  

Taking political responsibility for the welfare of our country is not a cop out and works a whole lot better than praying.   To be politically responsible requires understand human nature, economics, organizations of all kinds, and sure as blazes does not mean not doing unpaid work.   Democracy is away of life, and unfortunately there seems to be very little understanding of that.

I need to drop down to your last statement  "The problem is that praying to God is not useless. And that if this is the only way they think they can get something done, then what is the harm in it? You just said they can't do anything (money, time...) but pray...."  

What is the harm of it is, it does not get things done!   Praying comforts their conscience while they do nothing!  It is a substitute for action.  It is what people do when they do not have the necessary information, or will, to take action.   While my good Christian friends pray; I feed and shelter the homeless, and advocate for them, and take political action..  Which do you think is more effective?    I assure you, their prayers did not get the shelter and food distribution we need.   To get things done, action must taken.  

As for the expense of my Internet connection, I strongly believe I can effect a positive outcome far better with this connection to the world, than by buying a family of 4 one meal a month.   This is not a toy.  It is essential to being informed and spreading information and that is essential to democracy (away of life).  

I pray often, and I am strongly in favor of believing there is a God.   However, I have a problem with religions, when there is no education for independent, abstract thinking, and the bible is interpreted concretely instead of abstractly, and people are Christians, but are not living democracy.   That is, they live on superstition, instead of reason.

Edited by me-wonders, 02 January 2013 - 05:04 PM.


#20    DieChecker

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 01:30 AM

View Postme-wonders, on 02 January 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

Taking political responsibility for the welfare of our country is not a cop out and works a whole lot better than praying.   To be politically responsible requires understand human nature, economics, organizations of all kinds, and sure as blazes does not mean not doing unpaid work.   Democracy is away of life, and unfortunately there seems to be very little understanding of that.
Would you say that doing unpaid work for a good cause is "Good"?

Would you argue that giving to charity (if you can afford it) is "Good"?

I think taking political responsibility is a noble thing, and though I am mostly Conservative and a Republican, I very much can respect and admire those who are very Liberal if they stick to their beliefs. Just because they don't believe exactly as I do does not make them wrong, just as because Christians believe something different they you does not make them "Evil".

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I need to drop down to your last statement  "The problem is that praying to God is not useless. And that if this is the only way they think they can get something done, then what is the harm in it? You just said they can't do anything (money, time...) but pray...."  

What is the harm of it is, it does not get things done!   Praying comforts their conscience while they do nothing!  It is a substitute for action.  It is what people do when they do not have the necessary information, or will, to take action.   While my good Christian friends pray; I feed and shelter the homeless, and advocate for them, and take political action..  Which do you think is more effective? I assure you, their prayers did not get the shelter and food distribution we need.   To get things done, action must taken.  
I'd argue that if the only thing they get out of it is feeling better, then it is worth it. But, statistical studies have shown that Prayer does have an effect, maybe a Placebo effect, but an effect none the less... where if those who are being prayed for Know they are being prayed for they statistically have more favorable results. People heal faster, people recover from irreversable prognoises, treatments work better. And not to mention that they have more hope, happiness and better attitudes.

Praying for national or worldwide events, obviously, is not going to be as effective. Joe Shmoe is not going to Pray Obama out of office, or Pray Iran to stop nuclear research. It simply is not going to statistically happen. In those cases the only people that can be affected are the community that witnesses the praying.

I would say that action is far more preferable, as that directly 100% helps people rather then whatever chance prayer provides. But, you did say that your friends are Too Poor to do such things. Or are you meaning time and effort? In which case I would agree with you. Doing something rather then praying is admirable, and praying without doing anything is also admirable, but less so.

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As for the expense of my Internet connection, I strongly believe I can effect a positive outcome far better with this connection to the world, than by buying a family of 4 one meal a month.   This is not a toy.  It is essential to being informed and spreading information and that is essential to democracy (away of life).  
That would be for you to decide, but I meant only to point out the Option exists.

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I pray often, and I am strongly in favor of believing there is a God.   However, I have a problem with religions, when there is no education for independent, abstract thinking, and the bible is interpreted concretely instead of abstractly, and people are Christians, but are not living democracy.   That is, they live on superstition, instead of reason.
I will agree that when people turn from Practicing Christianity to following a Religion, that they are doing themselves a disservice. The Bible is not a set of Rules, it is Inspiration and Leasons. Jesus came to break the rules and establish a new rule of loving others, not going all Pharasee on people. The Pharasees were the enemy as far as Jesus was conserved.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#21    Jinxdom

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 11:06 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 31 December 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:


That is a cop out way of saying, "No I do not give to charity." and "Helping others is the governments job.". Clearly you and others have internet service. That could feed a family of 4 each month if you gave it up.

It does not take a fortune to donate $25 a month... $600 a year to save a child from starvation, disease and lack of education.


View Postme-wonders, on 02 January 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:


As for the expense of my Internet connection, I strongly believe I can effect a positive outcome far better with this connection to the world, than by buying a family of 4 one meal a month.   This is not a toy.  It is essential to being informed and spreading information and that is essential to democracy (away of life).  


What we need to do is stop doing one or the other we need to do both. Spreading the word that doing good is awesome but not doing it yourself just screams do as I say not as I do. Which is just a tad bit hypocritical. (People don't like hypocrites not saying you are because of the next part).

Although people need to stop converting everything down to money then applying that cost to other things. The internet cost applying to food is silly because the internet is not food. You need to have forms of communication to be productive to society
We need more then food, water, shelter these days just to stay in the game(let alone to stay head), not to acknowledge that is silly.(Unless you want our people to live in a 3rd world country) You have to have everything you need to be successful in society before you can help out. If you can't then you need help yourself. Deluding yourself that you(or somebody else) don't need help when you/they do is silly. (Problem is the way economics is run makes realizing that you need help harder before it really becomes a problem).


Taxes are supposed to be to improve this country. Warmongering should be only used to take over a rival nation who keeps breaking basic rights not money(It's should an investment to the country instead of a companies). Ideally if we could break the countries we are fighting with and implement our rights on them. Then actually let them choose and protect it would come back to us. We can't do that and implement it properly and look at what it does to the world. We are a country are investing our money with no return to us nor the people who we fight. That's just bad business.

But we can't do that because society says that killing things is wrong. That includes governments. How good is letting a serial killer out to do what he wants? Not very. So why are governments allowed to do so? Because people's versions of what is right and what is wrong is completely and utterly screwed.


#22    DieChecker

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 02:19 AM

View PostJinxdom, on 03 January 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

Because people's versions of what is right and what is wrong is completely and utterly screwed.

Agree. It is not Christianity that is screwing the USA up, it is our society. Society including our Media that are only interested in their profit and political pandering, including our politicians who also pander for money and for the Media, and our overall way of raising kids, which is creating generations of callous b******* raised by minimum wage daycare workers.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker




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