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Can god make a rock to big for him to left

Started by danielost , Feb 20 2013 09:14 AM

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#1    danielost

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 09:14 AM

The simple answer is no.

Socraties or Plato(I get them mixed up) said,"give me a big enough lever and I can move he earth."
Thus not only can't god make a rock he can't move, he can't make one I can't move
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#2    Rlyeh

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 09:21 AM

Not only that but Jesus (God?) needed help moving the cross the romans made.

#3    danielost

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 09:23 AM

View PostRlyeh, on 20 February 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

Not only that but Jesus (God?) needed help moving the cross the romans made.


True but he was beaten.o
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#4    sutemi

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 09:58 AM

I think you will find that your quote is attributed to Archimedes.

#5    Frank Merton

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:01 AM

View Postdanielost, on 20 February 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

The simple answer is no.

Socraties or Plato(I get them mixed up) said,"give me a big enough lever and I can move he earth."
Thus not only can't god make a rock he can't move, he can't make one I can't move
Sorry about that but it was Archimedes.

#6    Frank Merton

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:09 AM

The Big Rock problem is an old one.  I think even Aquinas talks about it.

It falls under the concept of "self-referential paradoxes," and you get a lot about those once you've invented an "omni." something deity.  They are contradictions that have the logical effect of proving the premise false.

In this case the premise is the existence of an omnipotent deity.  Such a god can build a rock so big he can't move it.  So if he can't move it, he is not omnipotent; if he can't build the rock, he is not omnipotent.

One common response is that he chooses to not build the rock, which obviously doesn't work because the question remains whether he can or cannot.

The more standard question is to redefine omnipotence (known as moving the goal post) to say that omnipotence does not include anything illogical.  The more standard formulation is that God can do anything except that which is against his nature, and building such rocks are against his nature.

What that resolves down to is that God can do anything except that which he cannot do.  Think about it for a moment -- that means we are all gods since we all meet that definition.

#7    libstaK

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:12 AM

Then it follows he can't make a human too lost to be saved - think about it.
"I warn you, whoever you are, oh you who wish to probe the arcanes of nature, if you do not find within yourself that which you seek, neither shall you find it outside.
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#8    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:37 AM

the answer is, of course, yes he can. and then he'd lft it amyway.

#9    Frank Merton

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:41 AM

View PostWearer of Hats, on 20 February 2013 - 10:37 AM, said:

the answer is, of course, yes he can. and then he'd lft it amyway.
Do you not understand the problem or are you just stubborn?

#10    danielost

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 11:14 AM

There is one thing god cannot do.  That is do evil.
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#11    Frank Merton

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 11:31 AM

View Postdanielost, on 20 February 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

There is one thing god cannot do.  That is do evil.
I suppose, so he is not omnipotent then.

I take it then either making the Big Rock or moving it, or maybe both, would be evil?

#12    danielost

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 11:35 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 20 February 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

I suppose, so he is not omnipotent then.

I take it then either making the Big Rock or moving it, or maybe both, would be evil?

Would depend on why.  If he does an evil act, bye bye universe.
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#13    Leave Britney alone!

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 03:58 PM

Some rocks are too heavy to be lifted so God put them in orbit instead, some hearts are too heavy to be lifted so God gave us forgiveness, some burderns are too heavy to be carried so God put his Son on a Cross.

#14    Frank Merton

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 04:02 PM

Boy this sort of jargon really strengthens my conviction that Christianity is utterly irrational.  Are you guys talking with a straight face?

#15    danielost

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 04:45 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 20 February 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

Boy this sort of jargon really strengthens my conviction that Christianity is utterly irrational.  Are you guys talking with a straight face?

I believe this applies to which every god worship.  Except maybe the evil part.  Remember Zues cheated a lot.
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