48 replies to this topic

[pickletoes]

queen.overthink, on 29 December 2010 - 04:31 PM, said:

Not offended by the idea that you understand more on the subject than I do, offended by the way you phrased it. But I'm over it, I'd have a break down if I took everything on the Internet to heart. I'm usually not one to want to outright argue, I'd rather learn more about the topic at hand, though everyone else on here seems to think that 'discussion' means 'argument'. Also, I apologise as I think I was still a teeny bit defensive from another poster essentially saying that my opinion boiled down to me being indecisive over shoes.    I will check out the entire video though, thank you.

I notice that no one so far has made any mention of the boy's autism. Does anyone know how this might- if at all- affect his condition? The article on the Daily Mail website has it in the headline perhaps to attract more views, but the article barely mentions it save stating that he is 'mildly autistic'.

I used to be very very opposed to gender reassignment until I learned more about it.  Back then I considered it self mutilation and felt that the person should learn to accept the body into which they were born and not have surgeries or whatnot.

When I actually met a person who had gender reassignment it changed my mind.  In addition having known someone as a male for a very long time only to find out that they were actually born a woman was interesting.   As I did research I found that we usually hear about the more exploitative and sensational versions of these stories.  But many of the transgendered live quiet lives and people would never ever know they had not been born differently.

This is why early intervention is so important.   There is a transsexual in our neighborhood up here.  And she obviously can't afford the surgery and didn't understand what was really going on until she became a full fledged man after puberty.  There is nothing she can do to hide the fact that she is physically a male.  And it is heart wrenching to watch her suffering.

I could pm you some clips that might change your mind.  I don't want to post them publicly since we get a lot of traffic on here.  But it's very sad the way this is misconstrued in society.

Think of it more like those people who grow horrendous tumors on their faces or body.  Would you deny them the treatment to have it removed simply because that is the way their body is naturally?  Of course not.  It's pretty much the same issue.  It's only the taboo and sensitivity that people have about their sexual organs that makes it any different.

Edited by pickletoes, 29 December 2010 - 05:53 PM.

[Helen of Annoy]

The thread was over when queen.overthink (hey, there, how are you?) summed it up perfectly.

But here’s my opinion:
That child is not trapped in the wrong body, he’s trapped in the wrong family. First they brought him up so catastrophically he’s been diagnosed with Asperger’s (fancy name for being utterly shy and quite clumsy, not near “real” autism). Then they made a big deal out of his dressing up games. Wears sister’s clothes... so what? I stomped around in my uncle’s boots, tore heads off my dolls, was aggressive when provoked, preferred animals to people, dug a hole once big enough to hide in it and refuse to get out of it ... and no one thought I was autistic or male.  
I’m aware of popular theory that gender and sex are not the same – good, that makes this issue even more simple. We have our gender (set of psychological characteristics) and our sex (body attributes). Therefore it’s possible to have a female mind in male body and vice versa. Fine, why not. Nothing wrong with that, so why fix it then, if it’s not wrong?
If a body is healthy, it’s a crime to “fix” it.
Dress up any way you like, but leave your body as it is, for sanity’s sake. Sex change is not “just” a serious surgery, it’s a life time need for intake of hormones the body has been deprived of and consequences of such damaging procedures. Whoever says it’s safe and not damaging to health is either very greedy or very stupid.  

Reminds me of the epidemic of thyroid problems that recently broke out among young athletes. They take the malfunctioning thyroid out and young athlete is only taking hormones forever, long after the athletic career is over. But while the career is going on, it’s quite useful to have your hormones adjusted just how you like it. How clever.
Sacrifice your health and body integrity for few years of running around in circles. If you get to the finish first, maybe you’ll earn more than you will pay for various therapies, supplements and substitutes.

If it was my child, I’d kill someone.  
Rant over.

pickletoes, on 29 December 2010 - 05:52 PM, said:

I used to be very very opposed to gender reassignment until I learned more about it.  Back then I considered it self mutilation and felt that the person should learn to accept the body into which they were born and not have surgeries or whatnot.

When I actually met a person who had gender reassignment it changed my mind.  In addition having known someone as a male for a very long time only to find out that they were actually born a woman was interesting.   As I did research I found that we usually hear about the more exploitative and sensational versions of these stories.  But many of the transgendered live quiet lives and people would never ever know they had not been born differently.

This is why early intervention is so important.   There is a transsexual in our neighborhood up here.  And she obviously can't afford the surgery and didn't understand what was really going on until she became a full fledged man after puberty.  There is nothing she can do to hide the fact that she is physically a male.  And it is heart wrenching to watch her suffering.

I could pm you some clips that might change your mind.  I don't want to post them publicly since we get a lot of traffic on here.  But it's very sad the way this is misconstrued in society.

Think of it more like those people who grow horrendous tumors on their faces or body.  Would you deny them the treatment to have it removed simply because that is the way their body is naturally?  Of course not.  It's pretty much the same issue.  It's only the taboo and sensitivity that people have about their sexual organs that makes it any different.

Psychological help, friends and family support, that sort of stuff can build up someone’s confidence and then there’s no need for mutilations.
And do not compare healthy sex organ to horrendous tumors. Healthy organ is just that – healthy organ. We need those. Just because it’s used for pleasure and reproduction doesn’t mean it’s to be taken lightly.
Would you approve amputation of a healthy leg if a person has mental disorder that causes them to think their leg is their enemy? (Such disorder actually exists. Can’t wait for trials.)

Edited by Helen of Annoy, 29 December 2010 - 06:37 PM.

[pickletoes]

Again, you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.  I'm not trying to be snide, I know it sounds prissy when I say it like that.  But really really really sad that people still think this way when there is so much information available to study. If it was my child I wouldn't hesitate to get him or her what was needed.  I think it is tragic that young people kill themselves every day out of the pain that is created by people making comments like those on this thread.   You can't "give your child Autism" any more than you can give your child Gender Identity Disorder.

You might also want to look into the work of Temple Grandin,  if you you eat beef and you life in the US you probably are eating beef that comes from a system she designed.  She's a high functioning austistic person who has Aspergers.  Einstein had Aspergers too I'm pretty sure.  

Quote

Researchers at Cambridge and Oxford universities believe both scientists displayed signs of Asperger's Syndrome.

Many people with Asperger's are often regarded as being eccentric. They sometimes lack social skills, are obsessed with complex topics and can have problems communicating.

This latest research suggests that Einstein, who is credited with developing the theory of relativity, and Newton, who discovered the laws of gravity, had these traits to varying degrees.

According to the researchers, Einstein showed signs of Asperger's from a young age.

http://news.bbc.co.u...lth/2988647.stm





We should condemn his mother for screwing him up I guess.  LOL  

Great Video by Temple Grandin,  the intro is long so fast forward up to her when she begins speaking. At around 5:52 They also recently made a movie about her staring Claire Danes,  really interesting.



Claire Danes movie annoncement



I have a mild case of Aspergers myself.  It runs in the family.  I hope I don't offend you by existing. I'll be sure to tell my parents how they have let you and the rest of society down by raising me all wrong.  




One last thing,  a leg is a completely different issue because it would create a handicap.  A better example might be the outer ear?  Would I cut that off?  But ears are not integral to the make up of a person's identity.  That is the issue at stake here.

Edited by pickletoes, 29 December 2010 - 07:02 PM.

[Helen of Annoy]

pickletoes,

You can give your child autism, because it’s a neurological disorder – probably hereditary, at least to some extent. Severely neglected and/or mistreated child can suffer from autism-like post traumatic disorder, etc.
Gender disorders are mental disorders. Not cured by surgery, unless some genius gets the lobotomy out of the outlawed closet, god forbid.

By your standards, I have Asperger's. But I’m not. I'm just having fun my way and I just have my way for doing anything. I also just despise most of people and consider them a waste of time most of the time... I like playing with them, though.

About your need to post Youtube clips...  can you post Rammstein next time?

Ears are not integral? What if I have ear fetish? Can I collect them? That’s essential to my happiness. Let me collect ears or I kill myself.
Yeah, right...

[HerNibs]

A tumor is a physical disorder.

Being transgendered is a psychological condition.


No one is saying that an adult that goes through a sexual reassignment surgery is wrong.  The idea I see (and feel) is that 16 is too young for ANYONE (the child or it's parents) to be making that type of choice.

Nibs

[pickletoes]

HerNibs, on 29 December 2010 - 07:32 PM, said:

A tumor is a physical disorder.

Being transgendered is a psychological condition.


No one is saying that an adult that goes through a sexual reassignment surgery is wrong.  The idea I see (and feel) is that 16 is too young for ANYONE (the child or it's parents) to be making that type of choice.

Nibs

The problem is that it is much much harder to go through reassignment surgery after puberty is complete.  The deepening of the voice is one example.  You can't undo that so transgenders have to affect their voice for the rest of their lives.  Allowing a male face to complete puberty also leads to future surgeries to make the face look more effeminate.  The physical muscle center of gravity and other issues are things that are effected by not having the surgery soon enough.

I fully understand the implications of a child wanting to do this on a whim.  What I am saying, and if you watch the video you would see,  is that in most of these cases the child identifies as the opposite gender from a very early age.   It is a waste to have them grow to adulthood only to have to have much more surgery and pay much more money for something that they are definitely going to do.

It is a very rare condition.  This isn't transvestite behavior.  It is Gender Identity Disorder.  Basically the person IS the opposite gender and the DNA coded the body the wrong match.  You can change the body.  You can't change the brain unless you are suggesting brainwashing which I really hope you are not.

If you wait to change the body it has limited results and causes even more psychological issues down the line.  If you could "fix" the problem for your child completely wouldn't you?

[pickletoes]

Helen of Annoy, on 29 December 2010 - 07:17 PM, said:

pickletoes,

You can give your child autism, because it’s a neurological disorder – probably hereditary, at least to some extent. Severely neglected and/or mistreated child can suffer from autism-like post traumatic disorder, etc.
Gender disorders are mental disorders. Not cured by surgery, unless some genius gets the lobotomy out of the outlawed closet, god forbid.

By your standards, I have Asperger's. But I’m not. I'm just having fun my way and I just have my way for doing anything. I also just despise most of people and consider them a waste of time most of the time... I like playing with them, though.

About your need to post Youtube clips...  can you post Rammstein next time?

Ears are not integral? What if I have ear fetish? Can I collect them? That’s essential to my happiness. Let me collect ears or I kill myself.
Yeah, right...

It's sad to see you think something so devastating to other human beings is something to joke about.


I posted informational clips as a suggestion of material that is interesting to explore.  Again I apologize for posting information.  I didn't mean to offend you.

[HerNibs]

pickletoes, on 29 December 2010 - 07:39 PM, said:

The problem is that it is much much harder to go through reassignment surgery after puberty is complete.  The deepening of the voice is one example.  You can't undo that so transgenders have to affect their voice for the rest of their lives.  Allowing a male face to complete puberty also leads to future surgeries to make the face look more effeminate.  The physical muscle center of gravity and other issues are things that are effected by not having the surgery soon enough.

I understand that.  Fully.  The visible physical attributes of male/female (not speaking about sexual organs) are a concern but should not be part of the determination.

If a 16 year old girl has small breasts and is ridiculed and has low self is the correct answer breast augmentation?  No.  The body hasn't finished developing.  The child hasn't finished psychologically growing either.  Give the girl counseling.  Let her wear fake breasts for a time.  Do NOT change her body.

Quote

I fully understand the implications of a child wanting to do this on a whim.  What I am saying, and if you watch the video you would see,  is that in most of these cases the child identifies as the opposite gender from a very early age.   It is a waste to have them grow to adulthood only to have to have much more surgery and pay much more money for something that they are definitely going to do.

I have watched the video.  I see a 20/20 series of some interviews.  I am reading sites for transgendered BY transgendered.  Discussions about what they will go through during the transformation.  The many fears, frustrations, the anger and the suicides.  I was reading www.transgenderlaw.com looking at the rights violations that are faced on a regular basis.  

Preserving the mental health of an individual doesn't have a dollar amount value.  If the young person doesn't change their mind from when they are 16 years old to when they are of legal age then they would do nothing but benefit from a loving family, strong counseling and doctors that have worked with them for years.  

Quote

It is a very rare condition.  This isn't transvestite behavior.  It is Gender Identity Disorder.  Basically the person IS the opposite gender and the DNA coded the body the wrong match.  You can change the body.  You can't change the brain unless you are suggesting brainwashing which I really hope you are not.

I know exactly what a transvestite is vs transgender.  No, I do NOT (and never have) suggested any type of brainwashing.

Quote

If you wait to change the body it has limited results and causes even more psychological issues down the line.  If you could "fix" the problem for your child completely wouldn't you?

This isn't a matter of "fixing" a child.  This is a matter of giving a child the best possible chance at a happy future.  The child isn't broken, the child needs love, counseling and TIME.

Nibs

[Helen of Annoy]

pickletoes, on 29 December 2010 - 07:41 PM, said:

It's sad to see you think something so devastating to other human beings is something to joke about.


I posted informational clips as a suggestion of material that is interesting to explore.  Again I apologize for posting information.  I didn't mean to offend you.

My Asperger likes it sarcastic. As a fellow sufferer, you must understand and you must accept my own rules, created by my own whims, or I’ll be sad and I might kill myself.
Explore that.
Make a clip about me. Force everyone to cry over my sad, futile existence... arrange for surgery to fix it. Cut my flesh into shape of happiness.  
There’s no pill for happiness, there’s no surgery to make you loved, there’s no facial cream that will postpone death. Really, do explore that.

[Purplos]

There is also no pill that creates understanding.

Or empathy.


I find these conversations annoying, because I don't understand how 'normal' people can't understand that their gender identity is basically fixed. What would a woman do if she lost all her womanly features and grew male ones instead? Would she think it was horrifying or just go 'ho-hum, guess I'm a guy now'? Sure, counseling would be great, but putting your body back the way it belongs would be better. If I suddenly grew a penis, I would want it removed. It doesn't belong there. Because I'm a woman.

Am I likely to think of myself as a man with enough counseling and love? Doubt it. If I did, it would be brainwashing.

[Helen of Annoy]

Purplos, on 29 December 2010 - 08:20 PM, said:

There is also no pill that creates understanding.

Or empathy.


I find these conversations annoying, because I don't understand how 'normal' people can't understand that their gender identity is basically fixed. What would a woman do if she lost all her womanly features and grew male ones instead? Would she think it was horrifying or just go 'ho-hum, guess I'm a guy now'? Sure, counseling would be great, but putting your body back the way it belongs would be better. If I suddenly grew a penis, I would want it removed. It doesn't belong there. Because I'm a woman.

Am I likely to think of myself as a man with enough counseling and love? Doubt it. If I did, it would be brainwashing.

I’m against mutilations because I have empathy. Not the other way around. Crocodile tears over someone’s obsession with physical appearance is not empathy, it’s propagating marketing myths of human domination over nature and alleged need to improve nature.  
Threats of suicide - given as a reason why improvements must be done - are common blackmail. Parents should be able to raise children so that blackmailing is not an option.  

Growing a penis overnight is not the same as gradually lowering your self-confidence and destroying your identity (which is above sex and gender if you’re healthy personality) until you start cutting your body to fit your imaginary ideal.

[pickletoes]

HerNibs, on 29 December 2010 - 07:52 PM, said:

I understand that.  Fully.  The visible physical attributes of male/female (not speaking about sexual organs) are a concern but should not be part of the determination.

If a 16 year old girl has small breasts and is ridiculed and has low self is the correct answer breast augmentation?  No.  The body hasn't finished developing.  The child hasn't finished psychologically growing either.  Give the girl counseling.  Let her wear fake breasts for a time.  Do NOT change her body.

As I said I used to agree with this.  This was my mindset for a very long time.  I considered it mutilation of the body.  However I have learned to respect a persons dignity and the right for them to say they understand their body and sense of self better than anything I can decide being another person who has no idea what they are going through.

Quote

I have watched the video.  I see a 20/20 series of some interviews.  I am reading sites for transgendered BY transgendered.  Discussions about what they will go through during the transformation.  The many fears, frustrations, the anger and the suicides.  I was reading www.transgenderlaw.com looking at the rights violations that are faced on a regular basis.  

The video is especially interesting because it examines parents who have allowed their very young children to self identify.  It IS controversial.  I agree, who knows if the child might have been just going through a phase.  However none of us really know the personal story of the boy in the story.  And yet here we are, strangers on an internet site holding a complete stranger up for discussion.  I doubt very much that the boy can't see the site or find that people are talking about the discussion.

As human beings we owe it to our own sense of humanity and human decency not to treat the teen as some science specimen or debate pinanata to air our own personal prejudices and "I'm just saying, it's only my opinion but......." crap.  Is it that hard to be responsible towards the dignity of others?

Quote

Preserving the mental health of an individual doesn't have a dollar amount value.  If the young person doesn't change their mind from when they are 16 years old to when they are of legal age then they would do nothing but benefit from a loving family, strong counseling and doctors that have worked with them for years.  



I know exactly what a transvestite is vs transgender.  No, I do NOT (and never have) suggested any type of brainwashing.



This isn't a matter of "fixing" a child.  This is a matter of giving a child the best possible chance at a happy future.  The child isn't broken, the child needs love, counseling and TIME.

Nibs

I hear you.  But in my opinion a child suffering from Gender Identity Disorder can only benefit from have sexual reassignment as early as possible.  I think the judge was brilliant in asking that his sperm be frozen.  A true breakthrough in understanding the issue and not just treating the teen and his family as flawed.

[HerNibs]

pickletoes, on 29 December 2010 - 08:35 PM, said:

As I said I used to agree with this.  This was my mindset for a very long time.  I considered it mutilation of the body.  However I have learned to respect a persons dignity and the right for them to say they understand their body and sense of self better than anything I can decide being another person who has no idea what they are going through.

I didn't state that I consider the transgender process any type of mutilation.  I have no issue with sex reassignment at all.  I state that 16 is too young for this process to be done.

Quote

The video is especially interesting because it examines parents who have allowed their very young children to self identify.  It IS controversial.  I agree, who knows if the child might have been just going through a phase.  However none of us really know the personal story of the boy in the story.  And yet here we are, strangers on an internet site holding a complete stranger up for discussion.  I doubt very much that the boy can't see the site or find that people are talking about the discussion.

The video is interesting.  No argument with that. We are having a general discussion about a news story.  I also disagree with many of the parents conclusions.  I don't understand why you brought up the fact that we are discussing this news story.  

Quote

As human beings we owe it to our own sense of humanity and human decency not to treat the teen as some science specimen or debate pinanata to air our own personal prejudices and "I'm just saying, it's only my opinion but......." crap.  Is it that hard to be responsible towards the dignity of others?

I don't understand your reasoning here.  You are discussing it with us.  Dignity towards others?  The parents/judge/doctors are discussing this with a world wide audience.  I think you may want to address "humanity and human decency" with those people first.

Quote

I hear you.  But in my opinion a child suffering from Gender Identity Disorder can only benefit from have sexual reassignment as early as possible.  I think the judge was brilliant in asking that his sperm be frozen.  A true breakthrough in understanding the issue and not just treating the teen and his family as flawed.

All families are flawed.

I have a question, what age would you consider too young for gender reassignment to begin?

Nibs

[pickletoes]

HerNibs, on 29 December 2010 - 08:59 PM, said:

.




All families are flawed.

I have a question, what age would you consider too young for gender reassignment to begin?

Nibs

I would consider not the age but the person.  Your sweeping generalizations are illogical.  It is not possible to theoretically declare an "age."  I would consider the child and the family and the experts to have more information than I would.  

Apparently not everyone is willing to think that way.  I guess we all in our ten minute glancing at the news story feel that we are qualified to comment.

I find that funny.    And sad.   Although unfortunately very common.

[Helen of Annoy]

In the meantime, on planet Earth...

People will swallow anything if you put some sugar on it. Sometimes you need a bit more sugar, but pharmaceutical companies and unethical among psychiatrists can afford thick coating if necessary. And some threats to motivate the reluctant. Accept our frauds, make us richer, ignore your own true well being in favour of vanity - or someone might kill himself.

You can surgically alter your body to look like it’s of the opposite sex, or like a cat’s body, or 70 years younger body, but even if such attempts come close to what you wanted to get, you are still just a cruelly butchered person.
Reminds me of another modern obsession – the eternal youth. Unethical doctors will tell you they can give you that, ethical will tell you you’re wasting your precious remaining time and putting your life at risk – for what? For being prettier than your neighbour. Isn’t that an admirable goal in life of a human being?
Female minds trapped in ugly male bodies should get over it. No, really. Get over it. Some people are getting over serious impairments and you have the nerve to hog the public attention with your whims. Ungrateful pile of self-absorbed resource wasters.