Christopagan thread

[Clarakore]

Well just throwing a shot out to see if there are other Christopagans here or surfing the search engines who would find this and would like to discuss the various streams of Christopaganism.

Keep in mind this is the Spirituality forum and not the Spirituality vs Skepetics forum so please be respectful of this and if you want to argue that Christopaganism does not exist (hi!), is a contradiction (postmodernism and syncretism, hello!), or that Christopagans are just confused, those topics might better be suited on that forum where others are willing to debate those items.

This thread is specifically made to explore Christopaganism for those who are interested or who are Christopagans themselves. There are just so many types and issues we have.

Have you came out of the closet to your family if they are Christian?

Have you came out of the closet to your friends if they are Pagan?

Could you even feel comfortable in a Christian church?

Does your family practice a blended-faith?

What is the most respectful ways of blending?

What holidays do you observe or not?

What specific rituals do you practice?

Do you wish there were more of us?

Are you intersted in Christopaganism but have never heard about it?

Any websites and other resources that you know of? Even if just local to your area.

Basically so many questions, more than I could come up with, and each single question will likely have so many answers.

The one I am most interested in is what parts of Christianity and Paganism do you hold most dear, revere the most, and is just a part of you.

There is also another: How did you find this path? What is your story? If you are willing to share...

[+and-then]

Well just throwing a shot out to see if there are other Christopagans here or surfing the search engines who would find this and would like to discuss the various streams of Christopaganism.

Keep in mind this is the Spirituality forum and not the Spirituality vs Skepetics forum so please be respectful of this and if you want to argue that Christopaganism does not exist (hi!), is a contradiction (postmodernism and syncretism, hello!), or that Christopagans are just confused, those topics might better be suited on that forum where others are willing to debate those items.

This thread is specifically made to explore Christopaganism for those who are interested or who are Christopagans themselves. There are just so many types and issues we have.

Have you came out of the closet to your family if they are Christian?

Have you came out of the closet to your friends if they are Pagan?

Could you even feel comfortable in a Christian church?

Does your family practice a blended-faith?

What is the most respectful ways of blending?

What holidays do you observe or not?

What specific rituals do you practice?

Do you wish there were more of us?

Are you intersted in Christopaganism but have never heard about it?

Any websites and other resources that you know of? Even if just local to your area.

Basically so many questions, more than I could come up with, and each single question will likely have so many answers.

The one I am most interested in is what parts of Christianity and Paganism do you hold most dear, revere the most, and is just a part of you.

There is also another: How did you find this path? What is your story? If you are willing to share...

I know nothing of it but the term seems like a non-sequitur. What is it?

[Clarakore]

I know nothing of it but the term seems like a non-sequitur. What is it?

The way a few people approach spirituality due to the way they were brought up and/or how they begin to make sense of the world for themselves.

It is very personal and there are plenty of prejudices, people who won't accept you, and outright cruelty from both Christians and Pagans if they find out who you are.

If we are lucky others will come to share and maybe you will find out more about it.

[shrooma]

you probably wont find many christopagans in britain britney.

we were a pagan country for thousands of years, with many fine monuments and sacred places, until christianity turned up and rededicated the sites they didn't outright destroy.

we take a rather dim view of that kind of behaviour, a consequence of which being a lot of resentment towards christianity from british pagans, who tend to view paganism and christianity as being mutually exclusive.

ireland, on the other hand, has a long tradition of cristopaganism, as they were highly reluctant to give up the old ways when christianity was introduced, so practiced a mixture of both, something that they do even today.

[Grandpa Greenman]

There is one on the site but I don't remember who it is. We have one who comes to our circles. (I think I unfriended her ) Pagan religions and Abrahamic religions are so different I don't understand how they reconcile them. I would like to know. Pagan (Earth based religion) honors or worships the Earth and the Universe, in other words the creation. Birth and rebirth is an unending cycle. Christians worship what they call God a creator being outside the universe.. You're born, you die, heaven or hell your choice. Personaly I don't think they are really Pagans (modern) they are New Age/Christian which are actually twIo different things. New age, puts all religion in a bucket and stirs it up. Too confusing for me. I'll just walk one path at a time, thanks.

[eight bits]

DW

Too confusing for me. I'll just walk one path at a time, thanks.

You know that I have much respect for the path that you've chosen. However, the webby party line about Christianity is that it's all pagan syncretic and knock-off anyway.

Not that I buy into the party line, but if there's any truth to it at all, then it would seem inescapable that there could be a syncretism that respects both its roots. And that would be something pagan and Christian.

For example, and I happily acknowledge my debt in the following observation to Tom Wolfe and his novel, A Man in Full, you could read Epictetus

http://classics.mit.edu/Browse/browse-Epictetus.html

and except for a few words here and there, think you were reading something from the Early Christian Writings site.

[Marcion Meets E. Sibyl]

Well just throwing a shot out to see if there are other Christopagans here or surfing the search engines who would find this and would like to discuss the various streams of Christopaganism.

Keep in mind this is the Spirituality forum and not the Spirituality vs Skepetics forum so please be respectful of this and if you want to argue that Christopaganism does not exist (hi!), is a contradiction (postmodernism and syncretism, hello!), or that Christopagans are just confused, those topics might better be suited on that forum where others are willing to debate those items.

This thread is specifically made to explore Christopaganism for those who are interested or who are Christopagans themselves. There are just so many types and issues we have.

Have you came out of the closet to your family if they are Christian?

Have you came out of the closet to your friends if they are Pagan?

Could you even feel comfortable in a Christian church?

Does your family practice a blended-faith?

What is the most respectful ways of blending?

What holidays do you observe or not?

What specific rituals do you practice?

What is your story? If you are willing to share...

Hello Britney,

You may want to check out Santeria and Candomble. Also, many practitioners of yoga, including kundalini and siddha, remain in their central Christian religion...until they realize what their Christian religion is all about. Even within the Christian faith, there are "pagan-like" practices (and I'm being politically correct here without naming sects, congregations, etc.). So yes, Christopaganism is out there.

When I was a practicing pagan, the only thing Christian I found important was the Holy Spirit because I once believed that the mystical "Flow" was exactly it. Church was out of the question because of time. Practicing pagan rituals and self knowledge is consuming. Who has the time to "serve two masters"? I celebrated Easter and Christmas as eternity of the soul (Christ consciousness) and reincarnation; besides, the "outer" trimmings of those holidays are pagan based. My family knew my former pagan status, and it was something I was absolutely proud to admit because I got results. In that line of paganism, material results are extremely important; otherwise, one's practice is all in the mind, as in "mental." And I mean GREAT results: psychic gifts are part of that equation. Unless something otherworldly or life-changing happens to a person, leaving that type of paganism (channeling with wizardry) is unthinkable. With all the goodies and all -- I think, not. On the other hand, without the will of "a god," one's pagan practice is ABSOLUTELY fruitless. By the way, I'm selling all of my crystals and minerals and things on my website, for I am traveling lightly nowadays.

Peace.

[Clarakore]

you probably wont find many christopagans in britain britney.

we were a pagan country for thousands of years, with many fine monuments and sacred places, until christianity turned up and rededicated the sites they didn't outright destroy.

we take a rather dim view of that kind of behaviour, a consequence of which being a lot of resentment towards christianity from british pagans, who tend to view paganism and christianity as being mutually exclusive.

ireland, on the other hand, has a long tradition of cristopaganism, as they were highly reluctant to give up the old ways when christianity was introduced, so practiced a mixture of both, something that they do even today.

That makes a lot of sense and it does seem those who hold on to the older ways here are all Catholic as well, similar to Ireland I am guessing. Of course growing up outside of the Catholic tradition I did see (and there still are) a few non-Catholic Christians who cling on to superstition as well to the point that visiting a folk healer or even using home remedies is not out of the question. Of course "holding on to supersition" is only the way outsiders view it, we truly beleive these things work.

Hello Britney,

You may want to check out Santeria and Candomble. Also, many practitioners of yoga, including kundalini and siddha, remain in their central Christian religion...until they realize what their Christian religion is all about. Even within the Christian faith, there are "pagan-like" practices (and I'm being politically correct here without naming sects, congregations, etc.). So yes, Christopaganism is out there.

When I was a practicing pagan, the only thing Christian I found important was the Holy Spirit because I once believed that the mystical "Flow" was exactly it. Church was out of the question because of time. Practicing pagan rituals and self knowledge is consuming. Who has the time to "serve two masters"? I celebrated Easter and Christmas as eternity of the soul (Christ consciousness) and reincarnation; besides, the "outer" trimmings of those holidays are pagan based. My family knew my former pagan status, and it was something I was absolutely proud to admit because I got results. In that line of paganism, material results are extremely important; otherwise, one's practice is all in the mind, as in "mental." And I mean GREAT results: psychic gifts are part of that equation. Unless something otherworldly or life-changing happens to a person, leaving that type of paganism (channeling with wizardry) is unthinkable. With all the goodies and all -- I think, not. On the other hand, without the will of "a god," one's pagan practice is ABSOLUTELY fruitless. By the way, I'm selling all of my crystals and minerals and things on my website, for I am traveling lightly nowadays.

Peace.

I am familiar with both of those, Santeria and Candomble.

My sister told me last month she was going to go back to the Santero she used to visit and continue on that path. She also went to the botanica here in town to buy some things to that effect. She had dropped powder before, what some who practice hoo doo would call goofer dust, but that is not what they call it in Santeria and I have never asked her about it because it seems highly personal to her. Do you know what the equivalent name would be?

I am more of the type who prefers getting all I need from nature or small personal items that I already own but to each their own.

Hey expand on the pagan practices you find within Christianity, no need to be politically correct here since this thread is not about Christianity or Paganism but Christopaganism.

The Holy Spirit is very much like flow and I have experienced both so would not call them exactly the same experiences but they do strike me as being from the same source.

Once I was sweeping the driveway outside, magically you see, and my friend was sitting down watching me. She told me that it was very calming to watch me doing so, almost like looking at ocean waves, and that she was getting drowsy.

I was doing this as a tool to find balance and also because the drive needed to be swept. Then it was as if I was simply a part of everything. The sky appeared to turn a shade of pink, everything did, for a moment I was in flow...then I returned but the calmness endured for some time after.

Really like what you said about it being "mental". Techniques such as visualization are a part of my path from since I was quite young, taught to me by my father, which I expanded the concept to suit my own needs.

There is also the fact that I do believe that everyone has a gift and if they can just find it they can help others in this world with it, in small ways, in ways you would not even tell others you are helping them, but in secret.

Traveling light seems prudent, thank you for your response.

Here is a tidbit about folk magic/healing from the Northeast. It would be nice to learn more about this.

Pow-wow, called Braucherei in Deitsch, is a system of American folk religion and magic associated with the Pennsylvania Dutch.

Its name comes from the book Pow-wows, or, The Long Lost Friend, written by John George Hohman and first published in German as Der Lange Verborgene Freund in 1820. Despite the appropriation of "pow-wow", taken from an Algonquian word for a gathering of medicine men, the collection is actually a very traditional collection of European magic spells, recipes, and folk remedies of a type familiar to students of folklore. The formulas mix prayers, magic words, and simple rituals to cure simple domestic ailments and rural troubles.

The tradition is also called hex or hex work, or Speilwerk in Pennsylvania Dutch; its adepts are hexenmeisters. The tradition of Hex signs painted on Pennsylvania barns in some areas originally relates to this tradition, as the symbols were pentagrams thought to have talismanic properties; though many current hex signs are made simply for decoration.

Also important to the pow-wow practitioner was the work Sixth and Seventh Books of Moses, a magical text attributed to Moses, and claimed as an esoteric sequel to the Biblical Five Books of Moses, or Pentateuch. Various versions of the work can be traced to 18th and 19th century German sources, while an English translation was published in New York in 1880 by the German antiquarian, Johann Scheible.

Another characteristic practice of pow-wow magic is the Himmelsbrief or "heaven's letter" and Teufelsbrief, a "devil's letter," which presumably is meant to bestow a curse. Significantly, the Long Lost Friend assures its owner that:

Whoever carries this book with him, is safe from all his enemies, visible or invisible; and whoever has this book with him cannot die without the holy corpse of Jesus Christ, nor drowned in any water, nor burn up in any fire, nor can any unjust sentence be passed upon him. So help me.

<snip>

Cure For The Headache

Tame thou flesh and bone, like Christ in Paradise; and you who will assist thee, this I tell thee (name) for your repentance sake. + + + This you must say three times, each time lasting for three minutes, and your headache will soon cease. But if your headache is caused by strong drink, or otherwise will not leave you soon, then you must repeat these words every minute. This, however, is not necessary in regard to headache.

To Remove Bruises and Pains

Bruise, thou shalt not heat; Bruise, thou shalt not sweat; Bruise, thou shalt not run, No more than Virgin Mary shall bring forth another son. + + +

To Pull the Heat from Burns

Two angels came down from the north; one named Fire, the other Frost; Frost said to Fire go away, go away; in the name of Jesus go away.

http://en.wikipedia....ow_(folk_magic)

That is definitely more in line with the type of folk magic and healing that I learned was sent to us as a gift from God. A long time ago not everyone could see a doctor (too expensive, just for the people on the other side of the tracks) so God sent us healers to the people when they were most needed. Those traditions might be dying for that very reason. So I had to form my own path with no one to show me anything besides the most basic home remedies. My sister took another path.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Leave Britney alone!

[Marcion Meets E. Sibyl]

She had dropped powder before, what some who practice hoo doo would call goofer dust, but that is not what they call it in Santeria and I have never asked her about it because it seems highly personal to her. Do you know what the equivalent name would be?

I am more of the type who prefers getting all I need from nature or small personal items that I already own but to each their own.

Once I was sweeping the driveway outside, magically you see, and my friend was sitting down watching me. She told me that it was very calming to watch me doing so, almost like looking at ocean waves, and that she was getting drowsy.

Yefa (goofer dust)... Cascarilla powder is to clear negative energy. They're both from nature. Yefa is termite droppings, and cascarilla powder is from white egg shells. Goofer dust, on the other hand, can be anything, from bones to home dust or combo, depending on the "prayer." At any rate, one must have "a god" to give blessing...

Your friend was getting drowsy because her psychic muscle system was weak. Have you ever heard of the term "spiritual cannibalism"? It's not as sinister as it sounds (for people who follow a particular pagan religion, or the occult). It's just a matter of fact. When one deals with outside forces and gods, one must accept one's psychic limitations and do something about it, to rise above one's limitations.

At any rate, my pagan path was like a lifetime ago...

God bless.

[Clarakore]

Digging into the history and there was this.

Collyridianism was an obscure Early Christian heretical movement whose adherents apparently worshipped the Virgin Mary, mother of Jesus, as a goddess.

The main source of information about them comes from their strongest opponent, Epiphanius of Salamis, who wrote about them in his Panarion of about 375 AD. According to Epiphanius, certain women in then-largely-pagan Arabia syncretized indigenous beliefs with the worship of Mary, and offered little cakes or bread-rolls (Greek κολλυρις – a word occurring in the Septuagint) to her. Epiphanius states that Collyridianism originated in Thrace and Scythia, although it may have first travelled to those regions from Syria or Asia Minor. Little else is known.

Collyridianism

Of course it is only considered heretical by orthodoxy as was any other variation.

Edited May 4, 2013 by Leave Britney alone!

[nothinglizx2]

The two don't just simply mix like that. Any true spiritualist would tell you that to do so would make you drunk, but not with wine. It is introducing the positive and the negative together to satisfy a specific selfish desire and not the desire of God. Pagan worship is a worship of created things, Christianity is the worship of God, the Father of all the living (The Creator).

One can respect and admire the creation, but to worship it as a god is to be worshipping a false god.

A star will have it's many revolutions in space and then as a human dies, it dies. Some stars in space have been dead a long time and their light is just now reaching us. Someday our star and our planet will die and the light that comes from our star and planet will only just be reaching the planet some other species or even our species has colonized on another planet far off into the universe.

As well it is a sin for any Christian to worship any idol so Christianity and Paganism can't work.

There may be more to Paganism that I don't understand, but I know enough to say which one I would rather worship, The Creator over the created.

It is hard work, it is often a loneliness one cannot bare. The Hero's walk usually is lonely because to do Good is hard, and to do evil is easy.

This may help a bit,

The truth is singularly in that no matter what you believe, it will always be truth, it doesn't need you to believe in it to be the truth, but im sure it would rather have friends of the truth.

[Clarakore]

Thank you for that last bit.

The rest seems better suited for the spirituality vs skeptics forum as debates between Christianity and Paganism is not the purpose of this thread nor will it reveal or add anything new that most of us have not already heard. Your position is clear and understood.

Thanks, anyways.

Edited May 4, 2013 by Leave Britney alone!

[darkmoonlady]

I'm a little fuzzy on the pagan Christian identifier really, are you talking modern pagans who also worship Christ, Christians who consider themselves witches? I think just as with the spectrum of beliefs you're going to find that asking for someone who believes one certain thing in a certain way nearly impossible.

As for pagan influence in Christian beliefs that again depends on the denomination and the culture you're talking about. There are many examples including those already mentioned of Christian beliefs in certain places that include many pagan references. It also I think bears mention that pagan means different things from different people. For some Christians pagan refers not to earth worshippers (etc) but anything that isn't Christian. In fact from a historical perspective the Christian church pretty much referred to anyone who wasn't a church going Jesus follower a pagan (or heathen). For the modern interpretation of pagan of course that is far different despite the historical origin of the name paganus which meant a country dweller but was subverted to mean a general heathen.

I know of a few practicing pagans who respect christ as a deity among a pantheon but do not worship him solely as a christian would.

[Grandpa Greenman]

Hello Britney,

You may want to check out Santeria and Candomble. Also, many practitioners of yoga, including kundalini and siddha, remain in their central Christian religion...until they realize what their Christian religion is all about. Even within the Christian faith, there are "pagan-like" practices (and I'm being politically correct here without naming sects, congregations, etc.). So yes, Christopaganism is out there.

When I was a practicing pagan, the only thing Christian I found important was the Holy Spirit because I once believed that the mystical "Flow" was exactly it. Church was out of the question because of time. Practicing pagan rituals and self knowledge is consuming. Who has the time to "serve two masters"? I celebrated Easter and Christmas as eternity of the soul (Christ consciousness) and reincarnation; besides, the "outer" trimmings of those holidays are pagan based. My family knew my former pagan status, and it was something I was absolutely proud to admit because I got results. In that line of paganism, material results are extremely important; otherwise, one's practice is all in the mind, as in "mental." And I mean GREAT results: psychic gifts are part of that equation. Unless something otherworldly or life-changing happens to a person, leaving that type of paganism (channeling with wizardry) is unthinkable. With all the goodies and all -- I think, not. On the other hand, without the will of "a god," one's pagan practice is ABSOLUTELY fruitless. By the way, I'm selling all of my crystals and minerals and things on my website, for I am traveling lightly nowadays.

Peace.

I was showing some Pagan friends your site. (Some of your stuff isn't Pagan just first class art objects. You have an eye for art.) I told them I thought you were a Pagan who had changed his faith, When a witches change their faith they have a yard sale. lol

I would never say my Pagan path was fruitless, I could have never gone through what I have gone through without it. I like to call it the dark part of forest. My path pulled me into the light or at least to balance. The wands, crystals, athamies are a means to meditation. You don't need any of it really. I have done better with a stick than any of the showy trappings of Modern Paganism. (I am a rock hound actually. That is why I collect crystals.) Once I decided gods are irrelevant to my personal happiness I became much happier and more at peace. I became my own guru which is really the message of Buddha. A lot of it comes from meditation, some of it from understanding I am the eyes and ears of the Universe and in there is my to joy and my center. As Above, So Below.

But each must make their own choices to find their own happiness and center. If Christianity brings you joy and peace, then run with it, my friend.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Darkwind

[Marcion Meets E. Sibyl]

That is funny, but it's so true about the "yard sale."

I'm also willing to match or beat other sellers' online prices, and BTW, I a couple of bigger crystals, but they're very heavy and costly to ship -- I will upload more pictures when I get the time. In my case, once a piece is sold, it's gone for good.

Thank you for the encouragement, Darkwind! You have a great evening.

[Tata Rompe Pecho]

Hello Britney,

You may want to check out Santeria and Candomble. Also, many practitioners of yoga, including kundalini and siddha, remain in their central Christian religion...until they realize what their Christian religion is all about. Even within the Christian faith, there are "pagan-like" practices (and I'm being politically correct here without naming sects, congregations, etc.). So yes, Christopaganism is out there.

When I was a practicing pagan, the only thing Christian I found important was the Holy Spirit because I once believed that the mystical "Flow" was exactly it. Church was out of the question because of time. Practicing pagan rituals and self knowledge is consuming. Who has the time to "serve two masters"? I celebrated Easter and Christmas as eternity of the soul (Christ consciousness) and reincarnation; besides, the "outer" trimmings of those holidays are pagan based. My family knew my former pagan status, and it was something I was absolutely proud to admit because I got results. In that line of paganism, material results are extremely important; otherwise, one's practice is all in the mind, as in "mental." And I mean GREAT results: psychic gifts are part of that equation. Unless something otherworldly or life-changing happens to a person, leaving that type of paganism (channeling with wizardry) is unthinkable. With all the goodies and all -- I think, not. On the other hand, without the will of "a god," one's pagan practice is ABSOLUTELY fruitless. By the way, I'm selling all of my crystals and minerals and things on my website, for I am traveling lightly nowadays.

Peace.

I'm sorry but you are wrong about Santeria being Christopagan. The Rules of Lucumi is a pagan faith that only syncretizes for the sake of outsiders getting a general idea of what the different beings are. Even then, the syncretizing is almost always exclusive to just comparing Lucumi saints to Catholic saints.

For example, my guardian angel is Ochosi. The angel of divine justice, hunting, animals, the forest, and witchcraft. His closest catholic counterparts are Saint Norbert & Saint John The Baptist. There are plenty of similarities between the two, but as you read further you begin to understand that they are not the same being and it was just a mild comparison in hopes that people will open their minds about who the Lucumi Saints really are and stop calling them demons. The comparisons started when the African slaves were basically being told you are christian or you are dead. When they were forced in such a manner they even went as far as including a crucifix into their practice(among other things), and some people today still use the crucifix out of ignorance. Once again I will repeat: The Rules of Lucumi(Santeria) and Palo Monte(Paleria) have absolutely nothing to do with christianity, in fact it is the complete opposite... Why would they truly hold any faith to a religion that threatened death upon them?

[Clarakore]

That is funny, but it's so true about the "yard sale."

I'm also willing to match or beat other sellers' online prices, and BTW, I a couple of bigger crystals, but they're very heavy and costly to ship -- I will upload more pictures when I get the time. In my case, once a piece is sold, it's gone for good.

Thank you for the encouragement, Darkwind! You have a great evening.

I cannot find the link to any of this? Would like to see the artistic items.

Also your Revisionist Megamix was nice to listen too. Every song on it we have, on original compact disc.

On the other hand the Stendal Blast Re-Uncut video you had on earlier also sounded nice, what kind of music is that? Reminds me of witch house music. which can be

. (Note: witch house has nothing to do with paganism, witches, or witchcraft, it is just a genre of music.)

I'm sorry but you are wrong about Santeria being Christopagan.

You might have a mild point. My sister does not consider herself Christian. It was never her choice to be part of a church and left just as soon as she could.

On the other hand Santeria is not just as simple or as plain as you portrayed. Adherents of it (Regla de Ocha, Regla Lucumi) in Cuba seemed to have been disappointed the Pope did not meet with them on one of the papal visits to Cuba. They are the most popular religion in Cuba and at times have tried to attend Catholic masses while wearing their robes...

However it came to be, Santeria is a form of syncretism.

Edited May 7, 2013 by Leave Britney alone!

[Artaxerxes]

Well seeing as how Christianity has a history of absorbing the pagan religions it comes in contact with I can easily see the connection. Christianity itself is a matrix of all the religions that were common during the first century, Mithraism, Isis and Osiris worship, Horus, Judaism, and some Greek influence. The myths in the gospels like the virgin birth were common during the first century. The story of Jesus and the story of Horus have many easily recognizable parallels.

As for Jesus himself? My personal belief is that he was a little Jewish Rabbi that probably had a very deep and profound near death experience while up on that cross and after they cut him down they flopped him on the ground and that was enough to restart his heart and he was in a deep coma for three days and he woke up talking about what he had seen and experienced during his NDE.

The New Testament is at it's very heart a highly embellished and out of sequence near death experience story and Christianity at it's very heart is a near death experience religion.

Art

[Marcion Meets E. Sibyl]

I'm sorry but you are wrong about Santeria being Christopagan. The Rules of Lucumi is a pagan faith that only syncretizes for the sake of outsiders getting a general idea of what the different beings are. Even then, the syncretizing is almost always exclusive to just comparing Lucumi saints to Catholic saints.

For example, my guardian angel is Ochosi. The angel of divine justice, hunting, animals, the forest, and witchcraft. His closest catholic counterparts are Saint Norbert & Saint John The Baptist. There are plenty of similarities between the two, but as you read further you begin to understand that they are not the same being and it was just a mild comparison in hopes that people will open their minds about who the Lucumi Saints really are and stop calling them demons. The comparisons started when the African slaves were basically being told you are christian or you are dead. When they were forced in such a manner they even went as far as including a crucifix into their practice(among other things), and some people today still use the crucifix out of ignorance. Once again I will repeat: The Rules of Lucumi(Santeria) and Palo Monte(Paleria) have absolutely nothing to do with christianity, in fact it is the complete opposite... Why would they truly hold any faith to a religion that threatened death upon them?

Hi xFelix,

Fundamentally, you're right, but the fact remains that they use Christian symbols in abundance, and more often than not, many Santerians designate themselves as Catholics -- many hold 2 religions. This thread is about Christopagan, and I assumed that it's about religions or paths that mixed faiths to gain a higher and safe state of consciousness.

Speaking of Catholicism, one might even argue that it's a pagan religion...but...I'm not pointing the finger here; it's just common gossip, after all.

Peace.

[Marcion Meets E. Sibyl]

I cannot find the link to any of this? Would like to see the artistic items.

Also your Revisionist Megamix was nice to listen too. Every song on it we have, on original compact disc.

On the other hand the Stendal Blast Re-Uncut video you had on earlier also sounded nice, what kind of music is that? Reminds me of witch house music. which can be

. (Note: witch house has nothing to do with paganism, witches, or witchcraft, it is just a genre of music.)

Hi Britney,

Glad you enjoyed the megamix -- thank you. The Stendal Blast song is old-skool Dark Wave. My website is, by the way, theplazafilms; however, the link is on my Vimeo main page. I'm not allowed to link my "4 Sale" pages here.

Peace.

[Tata Rompe Pecho]

I cannot find the link to any of this? Would like to see the artistic items.

Also your Revisionist Megamix was nice to listen too. Every song on it we have, on original compact disc.

On the other hand the Stendal Blast Re-Uncut video you had on earlier also sounded nice, what kind of music is that? Reminds me of witch house music. which can be

. (Note: witch house has nothing to do with paganism, witches, or witchcraft, it is just a genre of music.)

You might have a mild point. My sister does not consider herself Christian. It was never her choice to be part of a church and left just as soon as she could.

On the other hand Santeria is not just as simple or as plain as you portrayed. Adherents of it (Regla de Ocha, Regla Lucumi) in Cuba seemed to have been disappointed the Pope did not meet with them on one of the papal visits to Cuba. They are the most popular religion in Cuba and at times have tried to attend Catholic masses while wearing their robes...

However it came to be, Santeria is a form of syncretism.

Hi xFelix,

Fundamentally, you're right, but the fact remains that they use Christian symbols in abundance, and more often than not, many Santerians designate themselves as Catholics -- many hold 2 religions. This thread is about Christopagan, and I assumed that it's about religions or paths that mixed faiths to gain a higher and safe state of consciousness.

Speaking of Catholicism, one might even argue that it's a pagan religion...but...I'm not pointing the finger here; it's just common gossip, after all.

Peace.

Ok on the first quote, they were offended not because they consider themselves Christian but because the Pope didn't acknowledge them when visiting their holiest ground. It's like going to the middle east and completely ignoring thew Jewish faith... A total sign of disrespect. Furthermore, it really is that simple. The Christian influence is just a "cover" put on to preserve the faith, there really is no ties to Christianity outside of that "cover".

Second quote, in plural we are called Santeros. Yes, there are those who also hold catholic faith as well as their Lucumi faith. But that does not make the two faiths one and the same or in any way intertwined. The Pope did eventually acknowledge our faith as a faith of god, just one with a different path to him. As I said earlier, any Christian objects used in the faith are just decorations basically.. They have no value to us at all. Just something to hide behind when we were told it's Christianity or death we put crucifixes on everything(this was discontinued when we were formally given the right to free religious belief) to demonstrate "obedience". As for those who are Catholics as well as Santeros, Santeria does not shun any faith or the belief of any other faith. So in essence you could be a muslim and a santero if you wanted(actually there's quite a few of these too), in actuality and current practice it's like I said before, the only remnants of Christianity in Santeria is that of comparing our Saints with Catholic Saints for the purpose of outsiders getting a generalized idea of who/what we're talking about. Even among each other we don't refer to them in any Catholic way...

The faith is singular, it allows the belief and practice of other faiths, and accepts just about anyone.. But it is in and of itself and nothing else. I have no idea how a faith that just compares it's deities to that of Catholic deities is considered partially Catholic but it is a slap in the face cause even today we are chastised by Christianity. Lies spoken of us, hate speech, and even as far as persecution by way of law or witch hunt... Really disturbing that anyone considers us a part of those who hate us so much.

Edited May 9, 2013 by xFelix

[Marcion Meets E. Sibyl]

I have no idea how a faith that just compares it's deities to that of Catholic deities is considered partially Catholic but it is a slap in the face cause even today we are chastised by Christianity. Lies spoken of us, hate speech, and even as far as persecution by way of law or witch hunt... Really disturbing that anyone considers us a part of those who hate us so much.

Why still use Catholic symbols/images since it is the 21st century? Thank you for sharing, xFelix.

Peace.

[Tata Rompe Pecho]

Why still use Catholic symbols/images since it is the 21st century? Thank you for sharing, xFelix.

Peace.

Like I said, it was adopted when we were forced to be "Christian" to show "obedience", and was later just kept so that those who aren't practitioners could have a generalized idea of who that specific deity is most like. This was actually not something that was planned, it just happened on it's own. Almost like right as we were granted the freedom of religious belief everyone noticed the opportunity for future explanation.

Here let me demonstrate:

Shango and Ogun:

Ogun: He was the patron saint of iron, war, technology, and brute force. His colors are green and black. His favorite drink is fire water, and he loves the art of blacksmithing.

Shango He: is the patron saint of fire, lightning, palm trees, justice, strategy, and gold. His colors are red and white. His favorite drink is red wine, and he loves horses and big cats such as leopards. He was not born, but created in the heavens and was sent from heaven in a ball of fire. Upon arriving, he learned that he had a brother that was born named Ogun.

NOTE: These two would eternally be each other's nemesis. The Ying and Yang.

One day Shango heard rumors of his wife Oshun and his brother Ogun being unfaithful to him and he went and confronted his brother. Upon confronting him words were exchanged and both became infuriated with each other each believing they were right. So they both declared that if the other did not apologize it would surely mean war. Both of these deities are as easy to convince as a wall, so naturally they declared war on each other. Shango knew that his brother being the deity of war, blacksmithing and brute force meant he had no chance at a straight charge, so he started thinking strategy. Oya heard of the two declaring war against each other and she became fearful for Shango's sake because she secretly loved him. She went to Shango and offered to help him, in which Shango came up with a genius plan on how to defeat his stronger brother.. Ogun's only weakness was women, so Shango would take Oya's clothes and get close enough to smite his brother with a single and swift strike of his sword. The plan worked and Shango successfully defeated his brother. Thus proving that intelligence defeats brute force.

Shango is mostly related to St. Barbara (Yes the woman, even though he is a man)

If you notice St.Barbara wears red and white, rides a white horse, carries abroad a golden cup and long sword. In the cup is always depicted red wine.

At times Catholics depict St.Barbara in a fury, and when they do.. It always involves lightning bolts in the skies.

Ogun is mostly related to St. Peter (Simon Peter)

Much like St.Peter, his word is revered and sought after. He was a natural born leader and in most cases is depicted hold iron keys. Ogun uses the iron to either smite down the wicked, or guide those who need his guidance.

Now, I showed you what Catholic saints these two Lucumi saints most resemble and why. But clearly these two separate sets of people are not the same people, just similar. In knowing what Catholic Saints they are most like, you can begin to understand and deduct what these entities are like in terms of temperment and importance and such.. Do we believe these to be the same? No, in fact even with a picture of St. Peter in front of him we still call him Ogun and see him as a completely unrelated entity, and the same applies for Shango even with a picture of St.Barbara in front of him he is still called Shango and see him as a completely unrelated entity also.

Edited May 9, 2013 by xFelix

[Marcion Meets E. Sibyl]

Like I said, it was adopted when we were forced to be "Christian" to show "obedience", and was later just kept so that those who aren't practitioners could have a generalized idea of who that specific deity is most like. This was actually not something that was planned, it just happened on it's own. Almost like right as we were granted the freedom of religious belief everyone noticed the opportunity for future explanation.

Hi xFelix,

I really know what you're saying, but that's the past. Why imitate the oppressors since this is the 21st century? People know what Buddha, Shiva, Krishna, etc., look like -- catch my drift? Not all Christians know what Catholic saints look like, actually. Therefore, the following statement is no longer valid: "...was later just kept so that those who aren't practitioners could have a generalized idea of who that specific deity is most like."

Also from what you're saying, the followers of your religion don't even accept the Catholic beliefs or prayers for those specific saints. So, why not completely break away from the past, including the changing of the medieval/archaic outfits to dress your deities, unless those medieval/archaic clothes (I'm not talking about the accessories) have meanings?

You may want to email or start a campaign to change the way your religion is being defined. If I were you, I would start with Wiki, Dictionary.com, etc.

According to Wikipedia: "...influenced by Roman Catholic Christianity."

According to Dictionary.com: "...with veneration of Roman Catholic saints..." Also: "...a Caribbean religion composed of elements from both traditional African religion and Roman Catholicism."

Peace.

Edited May 9, 2013 by braveone2u

[Clarakore]

Are mass-going Catholics the only true Catholics? Was the article justified in using religion observance statistics to advance an argument about faith? How can journalists report on a fluid religious scene for readers coming from a fixed religious landscape?

http://www.patheos.c...icism-and-cuba/

The ones who are beyond claiming "paganism is of the devil" or "Christians burnt witches" but see value in both Christianity and Paganism and practice a blended-faith are Christopagans.

We don't want the negativity or conflict that comes with pure Chrisitans and pure Pagans who want to compete with each other or remain hostile.

Second quote, in plural we are called Santeros. Yes, there are those who also hold catholic faith as well as their Lucumi faith. But that does not make the two faiths one and the same or in any way intertwined.

Santeros are the initiated.

Regular people who go to them for help, who believe in Santeria, are not necessarily santeros themselves.

The ones who go to both santeros and to the Catholic mass, or who believe in the power of both are Christopagans.

Some can claim the Church does not accept that, or the Santeria can only be this, that is the fixed view as shown in the quote in bold above, the ones who want to keep their religion pure and cast everyone out, but the people in the middle are the Christopagans, who practice using and adopt a fluid view of religon and spirituality.

That is the heart of this thread, those who are OK with mixing, blending, and syncretism.

If you know about those who do this or do this yourself then please share. The ones "who hold catholic faith as well as their Lucumi faith" would be a good example. They exist.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Leave Britney alone!