54 replies to this topic

[Leave Britney alone!]

Darkwind, on 22 December 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

Sandy Hook was one nut case with a gun, this was 200 nut cases with rocks.  Do you see your fallacy?

Sandy Hook was 28 victims by my count. I understand your metric is rather different.

If you find 28 deaths within minutes as acceptable to the point we should gloss over it and focus on others in another hemishphere while displaying our own religous prejudice then no wonder your view is at odds with mine.

shadowhive, on 22 December 2012 - 11:06 PM, said:

Excuse me but there's a big difference between western society and there, that killing being a prime example.

That killing was universally condemned and done by one man, not endorsed by religion or the government. Compare that to the mob. A mob of 200 motivated by their religion, with the goverment on their side and no one in their country really condemning them. Now that is a world of difference.

As others have said, how long should we give them to 'evolve' because honestly, these people are centuries behind us.

Murder is wrong, universally and we should condemn it. Be it the man who decides to shoot up the school, the terrorist who blows himself up or the mob that kills a man. All should be condemned with equal measure. We shouldn't be pausing and treating this thing as you want to. You seemingly want to lessen the tragedy of this man's death, to cast the calllousness of the act aside as something done simply as 'part of the culture'. That we shouldn't condemn it and instead 'give them time'. I'm sorry, but no we should not and to do as you ask belittle's his death and every other at the hands of these kinds of people.

Sorry, but I'm going to condemn those people as readily as anyone else that commits an act of murder, regardless of who or where they are. I'm also going to condemn their society because unlike America, it's a society that condones this behaviour and I cannot in good conscience do anything other than condemn it.

At one time it was the West who was centuries behind the Islamic states. We are not always guaranteed our positon.

I believe you that you cannot do anything other than condemn it, if you could do more certainly you would, I suggest beginning with understanding which requires dropping hostilities which never make our world a better place.

[Darkwind]

I believe you, on 22 December 2012 - 11:40 PM, said:

Sandy Hook was 28 victims by my count. I understand your metric is rather different.

If you find 28 deaths within minutes as acceptable to the point we should gloss over it and focus on others in another hemishphere while displaying our own religious prejudice then no wonder your view is at odds with mine.

I don't find 28 deaths,3000 deaths or one death acceptable,but you seem to fine it is ok to kill this poor guy over paper and ink because it is part of a their culture.  As religious bigotry goes they have me beat  on that one.  I'm a Pagan, in some Muslim countries I wouldn't make it off the plane simply because of my religion.

[Leave Britney alone!]

Darkwind, on 23 December 2012 - 12:08 AM, said:

I don't find 28 deaths,3000 deaths or one death acceptable,but you seem to fine it is ok to kill this poor guy over paper and ink because it is part of a their culture.  As religious bigotry goes they have me beat  on that one.  I'm a Pagan, in some Muslim countries I wouldn't make it off the plane simply because of my religion.

Never said it was OK.  I agreed with others that it was not.

As far as religious bigotry goes the only one that a person could compete with is themselves. Comparing yourself now, to yourself before, to yourself in the future makes for a more fair comparison.

You can defend your right to attack others all you want, you can have that right, but attacking others is part of the problem. Religious bigotry is bigotry regardless of scale which can easily slide depending on circumstances.

I am Christopagan, so few of us, that everyone has us beat on every score. But what we are has no bearing on how we are with others.

Edited by I believe you, 23 December 2012 - 12:19 AM.

[libstaK]

You know I have been reading and waiting for  someone to pick up on the core issue - this man was not killed for burning the Koran, he was killed after he had been accused of burning the Koran (anyone notice the difference).

While neither reason is acceptable, the fact that someone can yell "blasphemer" or "witch" or whatever and set of a killing frenzy is absolutely frightening.

This is a level of witch hunting insanity that hasn't been seen in many a year - it is the dark ages for Islam, how sad.

[Sean93]

Give the daft b'astards some time.

They;re at the stage Christianity was at during the dark ages; in a few hundred years the Muslim's will realise that they've been acting like barbarians and change their ways, moving onto less barbaric but more annoying traits like the Christians.

[ciriuslea]

libstaK, on 23 December 2012 - 12:28 AM, said:

You know I have been reading and waiting for  someone to pick up on the core issue - this man was not killed for burning the Koran, he was killed after he had been accused of burning the Koran (anyone notice the difference).

While neither reason is acceptable, the fact that someone can yell "blasphemer" or "witch" or whatever and set of a killing frenzy is absolutely frightening.

This is a level of witch hunting insanity that hasn't been seen in many a year - it is the dark ages for Islam, how sad.

What amazes me is where are the moderate community leaders who would at least be able to subdue mobs like these, perhaps talk some sense into it...I think until moderate Islam stands up and fights fundamentalism they are just as guilty...these mobs represent Islam and thats how its reported to the world so when people say don't paint all by the same brush..then stand out and prove your different.

[libstaK]

ciriuslea, on 23 December 2012 - 12:41 AM, said:

What amazes me is where are the moderate community leaders who would at least be able to subdue mobs like these, perhaps talk some sense into it...I think until moderate Islam stands up and fights fundamentalism they are just as guilty...these mobs represent Islam and thats how its reported to the world so when people say don't paint all by the same brush..then stand out and prove your different.

I have many wonderful muslim friends and know many good members here on UM too that try to do just that in their own respective circles, these radical clusters are the minority but as usual - they are making the most noise on the world stage and fear is like a plague, it spreads far more easily than any plague really.  The people with the most to fear are fellow muslims, they are most closely connected to the radical clusters and therefore in their immediate line of sight - they need a strong military, police and secular government to keep the superstition and judgemental frenzies in check so that folk can feel empowered to take a stand against all this from within.

[Leave Britney alone!]

ciriuslea, on 23 December 2012 - 12:41 AM, said:

What amazes me is where are the moderate community leaders who would at least be able to subdue mobs like these, perhaps talk some sense into it...I think until moderate Islam stands up and fights fundamentalism they are just as guilty...these mobs represent Islam and thats how its reported to the world so when people say don't paint all by the same brush..then stand out and prove your different.

In Pakistan the moderate leaders are assassinated while dialogue is occurring in the Mahgreb. Moderate voices are for the first time being heard there. Look at how the citizens rose up to push out the militants after the attack on our embassy.

It is encouraging and with any struggle there will be ups and downs. There is so much hope for that region and soon it will spread east back to Pakistan.

Even after the religious moderates are given greater voice, with our support, their society, as ours will have more work to do, on woman's rights and other issues which won't just disappear when they stop stoning infidels. We and them have a long way still to go in accepting atheists and atheist discourse because they have a lot to contribute to our societies.

People believe we are not entering a new age, fine, but change is occuring all at once, now.

America is going to begin a conversation on mental illness and violence. India is having the conversation regarding women and rape and has also started discussing worker rights because of the tragedies that have struck their textile factories. America went through this around a hundred years ago after the deadly Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire and it led to regulation and safety. Pakistan is being rocked, still undergoing trauma that is by those that hate but they can't win, soon educating the women there is going to succeed and spread into other parts of that region.

The more we support growth and change in positive directions the better our world will be. But ultimately change is spurred by insiders to those regions.

Edited by I believe you, 23 December 2012 - 01:09 AM.

[Darkwind]

I believe you, on 23 December 2012 - 12:15 AM, said:

I am Christopagan, so few of us, that everyone has us beat on every score. But what we are has no bearing on how we are with others.

Then don't get off the plane because what happen to that poor guy will happen to you.  People attack my religion all the time, I am used to it. I have yet to kill anyone over it. It is not bigotry to say this kind of thing is wrong.  I call as I see it.  A religion that inspires this kind of mob violence you really have to question why.

[shadowhive]

I believe you, on 22 December 2012 - 11:40 PM, said:

At one time it was the West who was centuries behind the Islamic states. We are not always guaranteed our positon.

I believe you that you cannot do anything other than condemn it, if you could do more certainly you would, I suggest beginning with understanding which requires dropping hostilities which never make our world a better place.

I understand plenty. A man was murdered by a mob. It sounds to me like you're forgetting that key point (which I've helpfully bolded for clarity since it apparently escapes you). What else is there really to understand there? Oh yes the reason why. Ok so they murdered him because he burned a book (and not even that, just the mere accusation). I suppose, to you, that makes the murder ok then?

And another question to you. What happened was done in the name of religion. It is NOT religious bigotry to say that said religion calling for his death is wrong. I really can't stand that becomes the defence of the religious. A religious person or group does a bad thing because of their religion but if we condemn them for it it's 'religious bigotry'. No it's not.

Edited by shadowhive, 23 December 2012 - 01:17 AM.

[Leave Britney alone!]

Darkwind, on 23 December 2012 - 01:08 AM, said:

Then don't get off the plane because what happen to that poor guy will happen to you.  People attack my religion all the time, I am used to it. I have yet to kill anyone over it. It is not bigotry to say this kind of thing is wrong.  I call as I see it.  A religion that inspires this kind of mob violence you really have to question why.

Oh, everyone attacks Christopagans. Christians on one end, pagans on the other, we fall in the border of both.

During wars the simple folk who lived along the borders helped others regardless of sides because they knew when the war, started and decided by distant powers, would end, and when they ended they would still have to live with their neighbors from the other side.

The people of the border are returning.

Regarding the part I embolded in the quote above, I understand religion can take several expressions depending on context.

Paganism is ancient times that sacrificed is not the same as neo-paganism today. Should we just judge paganism like some do by the past? Should we lock it in to any period of time including today? Or should it be allowed to grow?

Should we pretend religion and beliefs cannot change depending on the area they are in, the period of history they are in, and the overall environment and climate they find themselves exisitng and operating from?

Violence in the Middle East has much to do with global distribution of wealth, poverty, lack to jobs and education, these are the problems that need to be tackled. People with access to the middle class have radically different priorities. Our own corporations engage in the wealth inequality.

Now Christianity in Middle America is not the same as Christianity in China. Christians there and here probably have different views on government, the right to own guns, and a whole host of other issues.

Islam is capable of change, is undergoing change, and being overly critical of it does not further that in the least. Exercises in hatred only continue the cycle.

shadowhive, on 23 December 2012 - 01:10 AM, said:

I understand plenty. A man was murdered by a mob. It sounds to me like you're forgetting that key point (which I've helpfully bolded for clarity since it apparently escapes you). What else is there really to understand there? Oh yes the reason why. Ok so they murdered him because he burned a book (and not even that, just the mere accusation). I suppose, to you, that makes the murder ok then?

No, definitely not OK.

Neither is being hypercritical of them to the degree of hate. If you don't hate no worries but it seems some want to defend their right to hate. I don't see the benefit to humanity in that.

Edited by I believe you, 23 December 2012 - 01:23 AM.

[ciriuslea]

I believe you, on 23 December 2012 - 01:02 AM, said:

The more we support growth and change in positive directions the better our world will be. But ultimately change is spurred by insiders to those regions.

very true.

[ciriuslea]

libstaK, on 23 December 2012 - 01:00 AM, said:

I have many wonderful muslim friends and know many good members here on UM too that try to do just that in their own respective circles, these radical clusters are the minority but as usual - they are making the most noise on the world stage and fear is like a plague, it spreads far more easily than any plague really.  The people with the most to fear are fellow muslims, they are most closely connected to the radical clusters and therefore in their immediate line of sight - they need a strong military, police and secular government to keep the superstition and judgemental frenzies in check so that folk can feel empowered to take a stand against all this from within.

I do understand not all Muslims are the same...and its usually one or two clever people influencing these mobs...I do hear Islam saying their religion is beautiful...then prove it. as that's not how the world sees it...

[shadowhive]

I believe you, on 23 December 2012 - 01:17 AM, said:

No, definitely not OK.

Neither is being hypercritical of them to the degree of hate. If you don't hate no worries but it seems some want to defend their right to hate. I don't see the benefit to humanity in that.

Good.

That's the problem isn't it? I don't condemn this mob because they are muslim. I condemn this mob because they murdered someone. I would be just as critical if it as an atheist christian or pagan mob that did it.

The trouble is, though, that because religion is involved suddenly you're not condemning them because they're murderers, you're condemning their religion. No, I'm not condemning their religion. The closest is condemning the part they used to justify murdering someone but that's because it was used to justify murdering someone.

I don't condemn religions, I condemn the parts of religions that are used to justify such activity.

[libstaK]

ciriuslea, on 23 December 2012 - 01:22 AM, said:

I do understand not all Muslims are the same...and its usually one or two clever people influencing these mobs...I do hear Islam saying their religion is beautiful...then prove it. as that's not how the world sees it...

You have to look into some Interfaith events around the world to see it.  I remember when the Dalai Llama came to Melbourne and we all went, Muslim, Christian, Orthodox, Buddhist, Baptist, Orthodox - an ecclectic bunch in and of ourselves.

When we arrived the big screen had speakers of all our faiths-including Islam, talking about the core message of Love, Compassion and Forgiveness.  The same can be said of Interfaith events the world over, Pope John Paul II was key to many of them.

Of course, there was no bloodshed so it barely rated a blip on the radar of news media and nobody knows how many thousands turn out regularly to show unity against violence, fear and hatred.