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Is there a thing as destiny?


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#16    Mr Walker

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Posted 05 August 2008 - 04:23 AM

John A Spera on Aug 4 2008, 10:21 PM, said:

May I ask a question Mr. Walker. Would a spiritual being, who creates a physical human experience for itself, do this without a reason? I would think that if there was a reason for becoming human there would also be a purpose for it as well. If your contention is that there is no reason or purpose for becoming human, then why do we do it?

Thanks .... John

gee im sorry that was the impression you got from my post. My belief is quite the contrary. THe reason for life, and particularly sentient life, is to create potentialities which would other wise not exist.

A universe without life, particularly without any sentient life, is closest to a preordained and one dimensional universe where only material accidents like the collision of stars may influence the timeline. A universe including sentient life has a multitude of possibilities. Whether that sentience is god or human we bring purpose(s) to the universe with us.

All living beings have an inherent purpose to continue the cycle of life, and thus maintain diversity of potential, but sentient beings, from god down to us can shape the universe to our will. God, being more powerful, does more of the shaping, but humans in their own tiny corner of the universe are beginning to make their mark, and in a few centuries will begin to shape/mould the very fabric of existence of our corner of the universe.

Given a little more time, that area of influence will expand exponentially. One responsibility of all humans thus inherently, is to ensure we survive and continue to develop material and spiritual wisdom so that, as our physical ability to alter the universe around us grows, it is matched by a spiritual wisdom which shows us how to do so wisely and safely.

Eventually, humans may become responsible for raising, teaching, watching over, and protecting, other developing sentient beings, both on earth and around the galaxy.

God or evolution gave us both intelligence and free will . It is our responsibility to learn in all areas and to apply that knowledge to making wise choices. That is where i personally think our spiritual nature comes in. It is this element of human sentience which  allows us/empowers us, to modify our great material/ physical abilities so that they are used for good/productive purposes rather than bad/destructive ones.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#17    Nessieman23

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Posted 05 August 2008 - 11:42 AM

My friend thinks destiny exists. Personally, I believe life is like a "rail-shooter" video game. We can choose what path, we can shoot all of the colorful balloons, but in the end, we just end up at the end. I dunno, that's my take on this. We all follow a set path, with forks, loops and back-tracks, but we'll just end up at the end sooner or later. I believe it's our destiny to die. Not how we die. How we die is up to us.


#18    John from Lowell

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Posted 05 August 2008 - 12:12 PM

Mr Walker on Aug 5 2008, 12:23 AM, said:

All living beings have an inherent purpose to continue the cycle of life, and thus maintain diversity of potential, but sentient beings, from god down to us can shape the universe to our will. God, being more powerful, does more of the shaping, but humans in their own tiny corner of the universe are beginning to make their mark, and in a few centuries will begin to shape/mould the very fabric of existence of our corner of the universe.


The point of view I wanted to express was that more than a general purpose, each human life has a set of specific purposes that is in fact tied into their life plan. It is not destiny because we have free will.

The theme of the thread, in reguard to destiny, is more easily understood when we realize that a plan is in place prior to our incarnation. We are birthed into circumstanses that form our perceptions of reality and beliefs. Our free will is always a factor in how our plan for life unfolds as well.

So as I see it, there is no such thing as destiny but we are pre-disposed for quite a few things things in very particular ways. Since I am fond of self empowerment, it helps to align that concept with the broader awareness about any given person's real potentials.

John



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#19    Mr Walker

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 02:20 AM

John A Spera on Aug 5 2008, 09:42 PM, said:

The point of view I wanted to express was that more than a general purpose, each human life has a set of specific purposes that is in fact tied into their life plan. It is not destiny because we have free will.

The theme of the thread, in reguard to destiny, is more easily understood when we realize that a plan is in place prior to our incarnation. We are birthed into circumstanses that form our perceptions of reality and beliefs. Our free will is always a factor in how our plan for life unfolds as well.

So as I see it, there is no such thing as destiny but we are pre-disposed for quite a few things things in very particular ways. Since I am fond of self empowerment, it helps to align that concept with the broader awareness about any given person's real potentials.

John

Ah i see. While i appreciate that viewpoint, mine is a little different.

I think our life begins with a luck of the draw, both where we are born, what sex, and what genetic or other defects we do or dont have,, along with many other things, may mark our starting point.

After that some things are more likely(potential) but nothing is fixed. Chance plays a part, but  intelligence, and life choices, make up a far greater part. Sometimes god intervenes directly to change our path, or to save us, or redirect us, but this seems to be quite uncommon.

Normally he expects us to make the most of our intelligence and our free will to make choices which lead us to a better life. I do not believe our end point is preordained, either. God may know all our potential timelines, and alll our end points, but until we make a choice at each junction point in our life, and this becomes fixed in our past, we all have a multitude of potential futures.

God can educate help and direct us to find the better/ more productive ones, and may even physically bump us down them at times, but all those potential futures exist until we reach them, and they become our present, and then our past.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#20    MARAB0D

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 04:29 AM

There is no physical Time, it is just a human way to keep track on the events. From the point of view of Infinity all events happen at once, i.e. they all have happened already. Events are physical changes which we record with our senses, no more, so the continuity of this world makes them all to be existing affixed. This makes up for "destiny", so the event itself is unavoidable and has no alternative. Means this world, looked upon from "outside time" is just a sort of a solid matter and "events" are the knots in it. We all are the same "time" unborn, living and dead - and the death is really a good example of destiny, as no one argues it is ahead of us all.

The same time, while we are living, we do not know the future, and have to reason each or action - this reasoning is our Free Will. We got Free Will when we ate that allegorical fruit, which allowed us to distinguish Good from Evil, so our reasoning for action can be either Good or Evil and we are aware of this. So, when we choose Evil for the sake of Evil, we can attack, say, a lamb and viciously kill it. Or we can kill it because it broke the legs, this would be a Good reasoning. But we also kill it for food, without any consideration about Good and Evil, this would be just our living routine.

So, Bible explains that we are Images of God and almost Gods, except our mortality. When we act of Evil emotions, this would be a monstrosity, a step away from God (as we are killing God in fact, lamb is also God's image though not as advanced as ourselves). When we do not believe in God, this is not an attack against God - the attack against God would be to hate another his Image, as this is the same as if we hate ourselves. I do not mean I am religious at all, but this question same as Free Will question in the other thread belong more to a theosophical discussion than to a philosophical one.


#21    Mr Walker

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 08:59 AM

Quote

There is no physical Time, it is just a human way to keep track on the events. From the point of view of Infinity all events happen at once, i.e. they all have happened already.


Thats an interesting proposition but i tend not to accept it because there is absolutely no physical/scientific evidence for it. As a philosophical position it is as valid as any other. But taking human consciousness and the philosophical theosophical positioning such intelligence brings to the question out of the equation,  all the scientific/obsevational evidence, in everything from birth through death, to entropy, and radioactive decay points to an ongoing linear time line. I

For example the seed for a new tree cannot exist until the parent tree has matured. Whether that maturation ever occurs depends on a huge range of variables with differing degrees of chaoticness.
It is always possible philosophically or theosophically that a being like god might exist outside that linear time frame and encompass a consciousness which exists contemporaneously throughout a large part if not all of the linear time line. This entity would indeed be able to see through time, but it is possible that it would still see a multiverse of potentialities rather than a series of fixed points or nodes.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#22    -Reborn-

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 06:43 PM

There is no such thing as destiny or fate, i believe it is a crutch people use to not deal with their problems. As in "it was my destiny to be in this situation so now i have to live with it"

Example: a drug user over-doses, was it fate? was it destiny? no they chose to use drugs and they could have choose not too use drugs.

If I worked my whole life to become President of the United States (which would be tough since I am Canadian tongue.gif) and everyone just chalked up all my hard work as destiny I would be pretty mad.  

Anyways just my two cents

Edited by -Reborn-, 06 August 2008 - 06:44 PM.

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#23    123er

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Posted 10 August 2008 - 07:13 AM

marabod on Aug 6 2008, 05:29 AM, said:

There is no physical Time, it is just a human way to keep track on the events. From the point of view of Infinity all events happen at once, i.e. they all have happened already. Events are physical changes which we record with our senses, no more, so the continuity of this world makes them all to be existing affixed. This makes up for "destiny", so the event itself is unavoidable and has no alternative. Means this world, looked upon from "outside time" is just a sort of a solid matter and "events" are the knots in it. We all are the same "time" unborn, living and dead - and the death is really a good example of destiny, as no one argues it is ahead of us all.

The same time, while we are living, we do not know the future, and have to reason each or action - this reasoning is our Free Will. We got Free Will when we ate that allegorical fruit, which allowed us to distinguish Good from Evil, so our reasoning for action can be either Good or Evil and we are aware of this. So, when we choose Evil for the sake of Evil, we can attack, say, a lamb and viciously kill it. Or we can kill it because it broke the legs, this would be a Good reasoning. But we also kill it for food, without any consideration about Good and Evil, this would be just our living routine.

So, Bible explains that we are Images of God and almost Gods, except our mortality. When we act of Evil emotions, this would be a monstrosity, a step away from God (as we are killing God in fact, lamb is also God's image though not as advanced as ourselves). When we do not believe in God, this is not an attack against God - the attack against God would be to hate another his Image, as this is the same as if we hate ourselves. I do not mean I am religious at all, but this question same as Free Will question in the other thread belong more to a theosophical discussion than to a philosophical one.


Your wrong about there being no physical time.  The higher up you go the more you realize time is in fact physical, you can see it, interact with it, or maybe not.  I learned this info o a drug trip anyways, my bad.  See my destiny lead me to comment on your comment, somehow altering our subconciousness Now we are spirit brothers


#24    illusenjester

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Posted 16 August 2008 - 10:39 PM

I think we all have a destiny and I also believe everything happens for a reason too, so coincidences don't really go well with me. I also think we have free will so my beliefs are kinda contradictory. This is so confusing... hmm.gif


#25    Aere Thalia

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 10:10 AM

Quote

do we all have destineys?

Not quite.

Quote

or can we choose which path to take?


Yes, imo, people choose their paths. But whether it leads to the same result or outcome is the problem, we can't really know for sure where the other paths lead to what outcome, if it is the same or will it be different unless we experience each path and compare.

Quote

i believe that we all have a destiny but can choose different paths that lead to it

everything happens for a reason


I suppose so, but I still stick with what I mentioned. Reasons can change, just like the decisions people make, and the options people consider. What one person decides can ripple and influence what happens to another, and so on.

I wonder how many people actually evaluate who they have become and who they will be that would ultimately influence their actions.


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#26    Sun Raven

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 10:16 AM

Clovis on Jul 18 2008, 10:51 PM, said:

Freewill and destiny coexist. We can make our own choices but we cannot avoid the ultimates.


Exactly.

Life is like a curved line , it has it's ups and downs. Yet the nature of that curve, is up to you.

You can change the curve by making your decisions. A rock has no conscience, if it's destiny is to fall, it will fall. Yet you do not have fall, you can grab on something to stop the fall.

Everything has a purpose for it's existence, this purpose is always met, but it can be met in many different ways.

There is no such thing as "Past and Future", that is a way of human beings to organize events, and a wrong way of understanding time. There is only a Present, everything happens in this present, what has happened before is happening now, in a parallel existence.

Edited by Alex01, 31 August 2008 - 10:29 AM.

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#27    AllP0werToSlaves

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 04:50 PM

John A Spera on Aug 5 2008, 08:12 AM, said:

The point of view I wanted to express was that more than a general purpose, each human life has a set of specific purposes that is in fact tied into their life plan. It is not destiny because we have free will.

The theme of the thread, in reguard to destiny, is more easily understood when we realize that a plan is in place prior to our incarnation. We are birthed into circumstanses that form our perceptions of reality and beliefs. Our free will is always a factor in how our plan for life unfolds as well.

So as I see it, there is no such thing as destiny but we are pre-disposed for quite a few things things in very particular ways. Since I am fond of self empowerment, it helps to align that concept with the broader awareness about any given person's real potentials.

John


You and I are on the same page more or less original.gif You should PM me with more info on your beliefs and we can share concepts!

"There is far more to this world than taught in our schools, shown in the media, or proclaimed by the church and state. Most of mankind lives in a hypnotic trance, taking to be reality what is instead a twisted simulacrum of reality, a collective dream in which values are inverted, lies are taken as truth, and tyranny is accepted as security. They enjoy their ignorance and cling tightly to the misery that gives them identity"-Thomas Cox




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