902 replies to this topic

[samspade]

cladking, on 20 February 2013 - 03:52 AM, said:

I don't see any Chris T in the thread and don't remember anyone posting about CO2 geysers other
than Chris Jordan.  I could have missed it and would go look if you had any clues.  A search doesn't
turn up anything.

your the one who mention chris to start with,
and i mention there was another chris in a discussion in a thread you were part of , thinking perhaps you got confused- that being in  2 different threads, i mentioned earlier.

and i messaged you long before you posted this misdirection with chris jordan.

i gave you chris t  surname in that message , you know that , and
if you wish i can show you were part of that thread discussion at the hom with the regular poster chris who i was referring to at the hall of matt who mention geyser and lifting blocks.
http://www.hallofmaa...4928#msg-564928
heres the thread to show you were part of it, which shows your misdirection was perhaps you forgotten or were mistaken,

cladking in a sign of friendship i would hope you remove the part of your comment regarding  a "paradigm shift"  and gravity and mother,
i find it terribly offensive.

i know you at the hall of matt and your tone here is offfensive.
i see you didnt edit your comment out, i find it very disappointing cladking to say the least.

Edited by samspade, 20 February 2013 - 05:02 AM.

[Quaentum]

cladking, on 19 February 2013 - 10:57 PM, said:

Not only are all those things you simply dismiss out of hand still facts despite your
dismissal but I can add a great many more.  Such as they depicted boats perched
on columns of water and said that Osiris towed the earth by means of balance.  All
the facts support geysers and none support ramps.  It makes people so unhappy
but there were no stone draggers anywhere.  The evidence is what it is and it doesn't
support ramps any more than a five step pyramid could ever support any kind of ramp-
ing system.  Does anyone really think that thje ramps just got steeper wiuth each step
until they achieved nearly 45 degrees to the top step and 90 degrees to the apex???



No.  You are mistaken and misinterpreting something I said.

I and almost all the experts and translators of the PT are in general agreemment that
this work PREDATED the great pyramids at least in part.  The PT evolved over time and
our copy is a little different than the ceremony that was used at Atum/ Khufu's ascension.
Atum became Osiris and the ceremonies changed but the rituals were little affected.

1551a. To say: This thy cavern there is the broad-hall of Osiris N..., would have simply
read;

1551a. To say: This thy cavern there is the broad-hall of Atum/ Khufu. in the Great Pyr-
amid building days when Khufu ascended to the iskn.



It's there.  It's under the pyramid and had to have been made first.  Not even a mountain
would interfere with it and it's just a little 22' high hill so far as we know.




Mebbe I really do need those drawings.  

Geysers lift water straight up.  The water flowed at 81' 3" to the "queens chamber" from
whence it was channeled to counterweights hanging over the edge.  The counterweights
were attached to a load of stone on the opposite side of the pyramid.  As the counterweight
was filled with water it became heavier than the stones and fell lifting the stones on the other
side.

This is all in evidence and it all appears in the PT.  It's true that the evidence isn't extremely
strong but the fact is ALL the evidence agrees with this.  It's also true that no one else "inter-
prets" (understands) the PT as I do but it's still true that with this "interpretation" it is internally
consistent and it is consistent with all the evidence.  It explains why there are caves here and
it shows why there would be a ben ben growing in the valley temple even today.

You do realize that "The Earth" may mean the whole world and not stones that were to be part of the pyramids.  Also there is a big difference between a counter weight and a balance.

You can not envision how ramps were used but who is to say they used one long ramp.  If we wish to speculate, perhaps the ascending passageway and grand gallery were also used as a ramp during the construction of the pyramid.

I have done some searching (yes I actually do search which explains why some replies take time) and from what I have found on several sites, the earliest pyramid texts come from the time of Unas, the last king of the fifth dynasty.  It does say in sacred texts online : "However, because of extensive internal evidence, it is believed that they were composed much earlier, circa 3000 B.C.E."  but there is no evidence to support that belief.  So the texts that we have access to come from a time 150 - 200 years after the Great Pyramid was built.

In your zeal to prove your geyser theory, you have made perhaps your largest error.  You have used the pyramid texts from a time after the Great Pyramid was built and applied them as though they predated it without actual evidence that the text, much less the passages in the text you are using as evidence, actually existed prior to the building of the Great Pyramid.  It may not invalidate the theory but is, in itself, an invalid method.

[cormac mac airt]

Quaentum, on 20 February 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

You do realize that "The Earth" may mean the whole world and not stones that were to be part of the pyramids. Also there is a big difference between a counter weight and a balance.

You can not envision how ramps were used but who is to say they used one long ramp. If we wish to speculate, perhaps the ascending passageway and grand gallery were also used as a ramp during the construction of the pyramid.

I have done some searching (yes I actually do search which explains why some replies take time) and from what I have found on several sites, the earliest pyramid texts come from the time of Unas, the last king of the fifth dynasty. It does say in sacred texts online : "However, because of extensive internal evidence, it is believed that they were composed much earlier, circa 3000 B.C.E." but there is no evidence to support that belief. So the texts that we have access to come from a time 150 - 200 years after the Great Pyramid was built.

In your zeal to prove your geyser theory, you have made perhaps your largest error. You have used the pyramid texts from a time after the Great Pyramid was built and applied them as though they predated it without actual evidence that the text, much less the passages in the text you are using as evidence, actually existed prior to the building of the Great Pyramid. It may not invalidate the theory but is, in itself, an invalid method.

None of that matters to cladking, Quaentum. It says what he claims it says, simply because he says so. And he's more knowledgeable about the language and religion than the people who've spent their lives accumulating the knowledge we have of same simply because he's "special". And no, I didn't write that with a straight face. His ego really knows no bounds.

cormac

[jaylemurph]

cormac mac airt, on 20 February 2013 - 05:28 PM, said:

None of that matters to cladking, Quaentum. It says what he claims it says, simply because he says so. And he's more knowledgeable about the language and religion than the people who've spent their lives accumulating the knowledge we have of same simply because he's "special". And no, I didn't write that with a straight face. His ego really knows no bounds.

cormac

To be fair, he's had years of experience in telling us all he knows better than everyone else. I think there's hardly anyone better at telling us that than him.

--Jaylemurph

[Harte]

"Hardly anyone" is right.

Only I do a better job of telling everyone that I know better than them!

Harte

[cladking]

Quaentum, on 20 February 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

You do realize that "The Earth" may mean the whole world and not stones that were to be part of the pyramids.  Also there is a big difference between a counter weight and a balance.

I know my "interpretation" of the PT and culture is unique.  This doesn't prove it's wrong.

Quote

You can not envision how ramps were used but who is to say they used one long ramp.  If we wish to speculate, perhaps the ascending passageway and grand gallery were also used as a ramp during the construction of the pyramid.

The question was, is, and will always remain how they got the bulk of the stones up.  It simply
doesn't matter how they goit any individual stone up any pyramid.  It doesn't matter if the grand
gallery was used or not because it could have affected only a tiny minoirity of stones in one single
pyramid so it can't be an answer to the question.  All the evidence suggests all the stones (vast
majority) were lifted by the exact same means and this is what we want to know.

Quote

I have done some searching (yes I actually do search which explains why some replies take time) and from what I have found on several sites, the earliest pyramid texts come from the time of Unas, the last king of the fifth dynasty.  It does say in sacred texts online : "However, because of extensive internal evidence, it is believed that they were composed much earlier, circa 3000 B.C.E."  but there is no evidence to support that belief.  So the texts that we have access to come from a time 150 - 200 years after the Great Pyramid was built.

If you eliminate the PT because Egyptology can't find proof that it existed earlier than
there is simply no evidence at all.  Yes, to exercise perfect methodology and logic we
probably should simply say we don't know anything at all (other than experimental re-
sults).  This means no ramps, no tombs, no cultural context, nothing.

I don't have a problem with this really but you need to realize that all the physical evi-
dence supports my contention as well.  This means that they "mustta used geyser".  Pick
your poison.  You also need to realize that it was the PT that led me to most of the phys-
ical evidence; the two are mutually consistent as well as internally consistent.

Quote

In your zeal to prove your geyser theory, you have made perhaps your largest error.  You have used the pyramid texts from a time after the Great Pyramid was built and applied them as though they predated it without actual evidence that the text, much less the passages in the text you are using as evidence, actually existed prior to the building of the Great Pyramid.  It may not invalidate the theory but is, in itself, an invalid method.

If I really understand the PT then it's irrelevant when they were written because they still
say the pyramids were built with geysers.  Sure it's heads I win tails you lose but this is the
the evidence that was left for us.

I think we all need to just suspend our disbelief and run all the tests that will show how it
was built no matter how it was built.  Do the infrared scan.  I predict that no matter what the
results are someone will be able to spot the answer.

[cladking]

jaylemurph, on 20 February 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

To be fair, he's had years of experience in telling us all he knows better than everyone else. I think there's hardly anyone better at telling us that than him.

It's not like it's my fault there's a cave under here.  I didn't put it here any more
than I put the new ben ben stone down by the Sphinx temple. It's just the hand
we've all been dealt.  It all fits together only one way.

[DieChecker]

cladking, on 20 February 2013 - 10:21 PM, said:

The question was, is, and will always remain how they got the bulk of the stones up.  It simply doesn't matter how they goit any individual stone up any pyramid.

I think you are making things Black or White. Who is to say that the AE did not build the lower 75% of stones with many wide short ramps, and then use a more exotic method for the very top stones. Piling up stones for the base would have been very quick, so they might have had 20 year to get the topmost parts built. Levering might have been used or even counterweights or cranes.

Quote

If you eliminate the PT because Egyptology can't find proof that it existed earlier than there is simply no evidence at all.  

Isn't there images on tombs of Ramps from the same time period as the Pyramid Texts? How can you discount that they used ramps for constructing temples and tombs, because of the difference in time, but hold fast to the PT, which has to bridge the same time frame?

Quote

If I really understand the PT then it's irrelevant when they were written because they still say the pyramids were built with geysers.  

Not necessarily, even if we assume your interpretation is correct, then it would mean that some kind of fluid was used. How the fluid got high enough to be effective is another matter. Perhaps the Egytians used very long water screws to lift the water, or large water wheels powered by donkeys?

[dreamland]

cladking for president !

[shrooma]

when you talk of ramps, you're thinking of just one, with a gradient that would be far too steep to push rocks up, but if you build a ramp that encircles the pyramid, the gradient would be shallow enough to be effective.
when you build a road up a mountain, you don't build it straight up it. you zig-zag it so it isn't steep.

[DieChecker]

shrooma, on 21 February 2013 - 02:22 AM, said:

when you talk of ramps, you're thinking of just one, with a gradient that would be far too steep to push rocks up, but if you build a ramp that encircles the pyramid, the gradient would be shallow enough to be effective.
when you build a road up a mountain, you don't build it straight up it. you zig-zag it so it isn't steep.

That is actually how I think they did it. They first built the lower quarter, which is over half the stones, with many fairly short ramps. Then started a switchback system on top of that existing work to keep the amount of ramp stuff needed down. Not really sure how they did the very top. It seems that they might have just lifted them individually when they were 99% done.

Edited by DieChecker, 21 February 2013 - 04:52 AM.

[cladking]

DieChecker, on 21 February 2013 - 01:36 AM, said:

I think you are making things Black or White. Who is to say that the AE did not build the lower 75% of stones with many wide short ramps, and then use a more exotic method for the very top stones. Piling up stones for the base would have been very quick, so they might have had 20 year to get the topmost parts built. Levering might have been used or even counterweights or cranes.

There is simply no evidence that any of the great pyramids are any different in any
part of their construction.  Course thicknesses have regular changes.  Stones are the
same at every elevation.  The implication is every stone on each pyamid was lifted the
same way and it's verylikely all the stones on all the great pyramids were lifted the same
way.  Obviously a few stones and odd stones might well have been handled differently.

Quote

Isn't there images on tombs of Ramps from the same time period as the Pyramid Texts? How can you discount that they used ramps for constructing temples and tombs, because of the difference in time, but hold fast to the PT, which has to bridge the same time frame?

No.  There is no evidence of any sort that any stone was ever lifted on a great pyramid with ramps.
There is a purported picture of a ramp on a causeway of a tiny pyramid but I've never seen it.  It's
irrelevant so it doesn't matter.  There were numerous ways they could have built little pyramids.

Quote

Not necessarily, even if we assume your interpretation is correct, then it would mean that some kind of fluid was used. How the fluid got high enough to be effective is another matter. Perhaps the Egytians used very long water screws to lift the water, or large water wheels powered by donkeys?

My understanding of the PT is that they are saying that a cool effervescent column of water was
degassed on the pyramid top and its weight was used in the henu boat to lift stones.

[cladking]

shrooma, on 21 February 2013 - 02:22 AM, said:

when you talk of ramps, you're thinking of just one, with a gradient that would be far too steep to push rocks up, but if you build a ramp that encircles the pyramid, the gradient would be shallow enough to be effective.
when you build a road up a mountain, you don't build it straight up it. you zig-zag it so it isn't steep.

Nobody has been able to design a ramp system that would work.  I agree that a spiral ramp might
be the closest to being workable but there are still several huge problems with it.  There are corners
to navigate.  There is the impossibility of cladding it on the way down meaning it had to be cladded
on the way up leaving no way to sight the pyramid to keep it true.  There is no evidence such as
sloped lines on the pyramid exterior.

There's a long laundry list of major faults with the entire concept of using ramps and these apply more
to spiral ramps than most others.  Perhaps it might be possible to build something this size with ramps
but it never happened and no one would ever try it.  Anyone building something this large would either
find an easier way like dragging them up the side one step at a time or they would never attempt it.

[cladking]

dreamland, on 21 February 2013 - 01:44 AM, said:

cladking for president !

Speaking of presidents...

Shortly after president Obama was sworn in he visited G1 and the first question he asked was how it was built.

He asked Dr Hawass and was told it was ramps.  I'm sure he didn't mention the lack of evidence.

[cladking]

DieChecker, on 21 February 2013 - 04:52 AM, said:

That is actually how I think they did it. They first built the lower quarter, which is over half the stones, with many fairly short ramps. Then started a switchback system on top of that existing work to keep the amount of ramp stuff needed down. Not really sure how they did the very top. It seems that they might have just lifted them individually when they were 99% done.

It's a five step pyramid.  So they built 1 1/2 steps with ramps and switched?

If it worked so well up to 120' why would they abandon ramps?  When did the cladding go on?

Sorry, but ramp theories don't work and they have all been debunked.