465 replies to this topic

[Habitat]

"Papa don't preach" (Madonna, 1980's)

Shabd Mystic, back to fasting from the world for you ! The best way to convert others is to demonstrate the fruits of your own conversion, whatever they may be. Otherwise it starts to sound like a diatribe cursing people for not being more like you prescribe. I also get a bit uncomfortable when people start giving the poor old ego bad press, that really is just a way of dismissing a product of aeons of evolution as some kind of unfortunate accident, be assured it is literally of vital importance. If you are thinking, your ego is involved. It cannot be otherwise.

You may like to consult your library and read the Cloud Of Unknowing, which speaks of the inner seeker having to overcome the urge to preach about the quest, like an excited traveller unable to contain the impulse to report his tales of adventure.

Edited by Habitat, 01 March 2012 - 02:42 AM.

[Paranoid Android]

Shabd Mystic, on 29 February 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

I know Christians disagree with me. After all, they have their "beliefs" and how can anyone possibly top that?

Do you think that "belief" is all that Christianity is about????  

Shabd Mystic, on 29 February 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

Sure I'm open to it. It's surely possible that Jesus taught something that countless perfect Masters didn't teach. And it's surely possible that those perfect Masters who were One with God, just like I believe Jesus was, were wrong when they quoted things in the Bible and explained what Jesus was saying. After all, it's possible that Jesus wasn't a Perfect Master and He was just portrayed that way by those who had a strong financial incentive for doing so.

So, maybe Jesus wasn't really anything like what I believe. Maybe He was just an average guy who was built up so a religion could be formed. And maybe the Perfect Masters, including those who wrote books about the Bible and what Jesus was saying, where wrong. I don't think so, but Jesus isn't here now so i, and nobody else, truly knows for sure.

You only half-answered the question.  You said you are open to the possibility that you are wrong about Jesus, but you did not say you were open to the possibility that Christians are right about him - you know, one and only saviour, died on the cross for us, whoever puts their faith in him and does the will of the father will not perish but have eternal life.....

Shabd Mystic, on 29 February 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

Show me a handful of diamonds and I will believe. Until then you have no more than wishful thinking based on an extremely unreliable source. If I have diamonds falling out of my pockets then I believe. "Faith" is absolutely meaningless. Faith won't get you anywhere. Neither will "beliefs."

If you are hungry you can read all the recipe books in the world but your hunger will never be quenched no matter what you "believe." Hunger can only be quenched by finding food and eating it. Beliefs won't get you anything, no matter what you "believe." Just like reading a map won't get you to the destination, only following it will, no matter what you wish to "believe."...

...No matter what your 'beliefs," they are still nothing but "beliefs" until you have lived them and proven every word is true. And Christianity can only be "proven" true after you die.

I'm not going to respond to the rest of your post, it's been done to death in this thread.  This point, however, I wanted to reiterate that my Christian life has yielded me diamonds by the bucket-load.  I don't need a bag of diamonds from a closet, I have the diamond mine through Christ.  And I'm not talking about the promise of future diamonds, I'm talking about the here and now, I have diamonds in my hands as we speak *well, figuratively, if I had diamonds in my hands right now I couldn't type*  I'd show it to you if I could, but you do not seem open to the possibility that Christianity has it right about Jesus (at least, you have not yet said that you have), and in the end it's not I who can show it to you, but God who shows it to you.  Maybe one day God will reveal it to you.      

~ Regards,

Edited by Paranoid Android, 01 March 2012 - 02:59 AM.

[Habitat]

This thread illustrates the divide between mysticism and "formal" religion, much as explained by Wikipaedia:

"Many if not all of the world's great religions have arisen around the teachings of mystics (including Buddha, Jesus, Lao Tze, and Krishna); and most religious traditions describe fundamental mystical experience, at least esoterically. Enlightenment or Illumination are generic English terms for the phenomenon, derived from the Latin illuminatio (applied to Christian prayer in the 15th century) and adopted in English translations of Buddhist texts, but used loosely to describe the state of mystical attainment regardless of faith.[4]

Conventional religions, by definition, have strong institutional structures, including formal hierarchies and mandated sacred texts and/or creeds. Adherents of the faith are expected to respect or follow these closely, so mysticism is often deprecated or persecuted. "

[ChloeB]

Shabd Mystic, on 17 February 2012 - 07:35 AM, said:

Not that any Christian is ever going to read this, let alone believe it, but I hope there will be others who might care about trying to separate "facts" from "beliefs," so I figured I'd post this. It's from "Path of the Masters" by Dr. Julian P. Johnson.

This explains what the "Word" referred to in the Bible actually is. (And like my earlier post it is also copyright free.)

Quote

Dr. Julian P. Johnson - The Audible Stream; The Source Of All Being

THE CENTRAL FACT IN SANTON KI SHIKSHATHE

Audible Life Stream is the cardinal, central fact in the Science of the Masters. It is the keystone of the arch. It is the cornerstone of the structure. It is the structure itself. And it is the Path of the Masters. One might say that the Master and the Life Stream constitute the Path of the Masters. The great spiritual Current is not only the central fact in the Science of the Masters but it is the supreme fact and factor of the entire universe. It is the very essence and life of all things. It is perhaps less known than any other important fact of Nature, yet it is the one determining factor of all Nature. That is indeed a pity.

This great truth or fact is significantly spoken of in the first chapter of the Gospel of John: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. All things were made by him and without him was not anything made that was made." Here it is definitely stated that something which is called "Word" is identical with God, the Creator. Although not at all understood by the Christian church, this statement is an important announcement of the stupendous fact of the Audible Life Stream. It is often called the Sound Current. But that is not a good name for it because it is not sufficiently definitive. The Indian name is simple shabd, meaning sound. But that is not definitely clear.

There are many sounds. Logos was the Greek term used by the Neoplatonic school, whose masters were familiar with portions of the Eastern Wisdom. Logos means the divine Word. It is this divine current, wave or stream going forth from God himself and flowing throughout the universe. It is not only an emanation from God but it is God himself. When any man speaks in this world, he simply sets in motion atmospheric vibrations. But when God speaks, he not only sets in motion etheric vibrations but he himself moves in and through those vibrations. In truth it is God himself that vibrates all through infinite space. God is not static, latent: He is superlatively dynamic. When he speaks, everything in existence vibrates, and that is the Sound, the Shabd; and it can be heard by the inner ear, which has been trained to hear it.

It is the divine energy in process of manifestation which is the holy Shabd. It is in fact the only way in which the Supreme One can be seen and heard-this mighty, luminous and musical wave, creating and enchanting. Now, this great fact of Nature, so little known to either ancient or modern thought, is the vital substance of the Science of the Masters. It is cardinal and central in all their teachings. It is the one thing which distinguishes Santon ki Shiksha from all other sciences or systems.

It is the very foundation of their system of yoga. It is the key to all of their success in unfolding their spiritual powers and controlling their minds. It is the one sign by which a real Master may be known and recognized from all others. No one is or can be a genuine Master unless he teaches and practices the Audible Life Stream; because it is impossible for anyone to become a spiritual Master of the highest order unless he consciously utilizes the Life Stream to gain his development.

NAMES OF THE SUPREME LOGOS.

It is commonly called Sound Current in India, among those who speak English. But the best translation which we have been able to discover is: Audible Life Stream. This appears to carry its deeper meaning and is more comprehensive and inclusive. It is, in fact, a stream, a life-giving, creative stream and it can be heard. The fact that it is audible is extremely important and that idea must be conveyed, if possible, in any name that is applied to it. This current or wave contains the sum of all teaching emanating from God. It is his own Word. It includes everything that God has ever said or done. It is God himself in expression. It is the method of God in making himself known. It is his language. It is his Word.

This Sound sometimes is called Name; in Sanskrit or Hindi, NAM. But in English, we are not accustomed to put so much meaning in the word 'name'. It is only correct if we understand that 'name' or Nam stands for all that the Supreme Being is. It is just another way of saying Word and Word is what God says. It is equally what he does. It is the whole of the divine being in action. To distinguish God in action from God as divine Essence, we call him Shabd or living Word. The name of anything or anybody is the sound symbol which stands for the reality itself. The name conveys to thought everything which belongs to the reality for which it stands. When the Master is said to give "NAM" it means that he gives the Current, the Reality for which Nam stands. He literally gives the Audible Life Stream itself. (Just how the Master can give it is discussed in "Path of the Masters" Chapter XII: 4).

This divine NAM, or Sound, or Word, stands for all that God is or has ever said or done. It includes all of his qualities. As said before, it is the only way in which the universal Spirit can manifest itself to human consciousness. So when the Supreme Being manifests himself as Sat Nam in Sach Khand he there becomes fully personified, embodied, and brings into manifestation all of the qualities of deity. As Sat Nam he becomes personal Creator, Lord, God, and Father. There he becomes the Fountain out of which the Audible Life Stream proceeds. This stream may be perceived and heard by all who participate in it throughout all worlds. It may be seen and heard by such as attain an awakened consciousness under the training of a Master. When a man hears it, he hears God. When he feels it, he feels the power of God. This Shabd is, therefore, the Divine Being expressing himself in something that is both audible and visible. This current must not be understood to be like a river running in one course. It is more like a radio wave flowing out in every direction from the grand central broadcasting station. In fact, it comes from the Supreme Creative center of the universe of universes.

This wave has two aspects, a centrifugal flow and a centripetal flow. It moves outward from the central dynamo of all creation, and it flows back toward that dynamo. Moving upon that current, all power and all life appear to flow outward to the uttermost bounds of creation, and again upon it all life appears to be returning toward its source. It is the latter aspect of it with which we have to deal mostly.

Upon that wave we have to depend for our return to our original home. When the Master makes the connection or as we say in radio, "tunes us in," it is then that we begin our homeward journey leaving all perishable worlds behind us.

This Word is called Nada (pronounced Nad) in the Vedas. In Vedanta, sound is always spoken of as creative. Sound or anything that sounds is the creative energy. It is referred to as the Nada Brahma meaning the primal word of Brahm. By this Nada Brahma all creation was brought into existence. The whole of the visible and invisible universe is the manifestation of this primal Nada. The Nada is the Grand symphony out of which all other symphonies flow. It is the primal music of the universe. Every musical cord of this world is an echo of that primal cord. It is the Vadan of the Sufis, and the Shabd of the Hindus. But all Sufis do not distinguish between the primal Word and the manifest word, between the original music and its echo. They are not able to point out the difference between the dhunyatmak sound and the many varnatmak sounds. While we may truly say that all music in the world is a manifestation of the original symphony of the primal Vadan, yet there is a difference between them, a very important difference. The all-creative Nada is the sound out of which all other sounds arise, while at the same time its heavenly strains linger in all material worlds as echoes of the original melody. It is only these echoes that we hear when we listen to a great orchestra produced by man. Those who love music should remember that they are listening to the distant echoes of the infinite chorus of the universe every time they hear a musical sound upon this plane. But we should always take care to distinguish between the echo and the original. The original cannot, however, be heard by the physical organ of hearing. A finer sense must be developed for that.

This Nada is Shabd in Hindi. It is spoken of as the Shabd Dhun, the melodious sound. Again it is called Akash Bani (Heavenly utterance). Kabir Sahib speaks of it so beautifully as the "pure white music." All Muslim Saints generally refer to it as Sultan-ul-Azkar—King of the ways—or Ism-i-Azam, and Kalma or Kalam-i-Ilahi. It is also called Surat Shabd Toga or Anand Yoga or Anahad Shabd, and Anahad Toga. So it has been called by many names in many languages. It is "The still small voice" and the "Voice of the Silence". It is the same divine sound wave no matter by what name it may be known. Let no one say it is not a sound, because it cannot be heard by the physical ear. The radio electromagnetic waves cannot be heard by the physical ear until they are converted into atmospheric vibrations by the receiving instrument; yet when they are traveling through space they are just as truly sounds. The Shabd is in any case a sound because it can be heard by a finer ear attuned to its higher vibrations.

.

This made me think of something.  There's sometimes I see things, and they just stick with me, they speak to me or something, I really don't know what it is, but this video, it's long, but just fast forward it to 10:30 with the gong:
http://video.google....65382017424  He talks about what happens when the sounds fades away....the one sound becomes the many, that's how the universe came to being, out of the one energy underlying all events.  That's kind of always what the bible talking about it all beginning with the "word" says to me.

Edited by ChloeB, 01 March 2012 - 04:31 AM.

[Habitat]

ChloeB, on 01 March 2012 - 04:27 AM, said:

This made me think of something.  There's sometimes I see things, and they just stick with me, they speak to me or something, I really don't know what it is, but this video, it's long, but just fast forward it to 10:30 with the gong:
http://video.google....65382017424  He talks about what happens when the sounds fades away....the one sound becomes the many, that's how the universe came to being, out of the one energy underlying all events.  That's kind of always what the bible talking about it all beginning with the "word" says to me.

ChloeB, the sages are unanimous, nothing that can be rendered in language is adequate to convey the experience of mystical union, so we must conclude something else at work here other than the divine. If it explainable, it is not "the secret that cannot be betrayed". Our little minds want to pigeon-hole and categorize, characterize and compare, but the divine does not yield to such devices.

[J. K.]

Shabd Mystic, on 29 February 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

Huh????

That's what you got out of all this?

The "human mind" is obviously a tougher foe than even I had imagined.  
.

No. not at all.  I have read every post, and have attempted to meld it all together to understand the Mystic worldview.  My current question concerns the source document(s) that originated Mysticism.  

My impression is that, regarding Christianity, you discount personal experience and most of the documentation of Jesus' life.  However, you allow the Gospel of Thomas to be a source, even though it was not written contemporaneously with the life of Jesus.

Even the document that you began this thread with -- "How To Be A Yogi" by Swâmi Abhedânanda -- contains what appears to be a factual error:  

"Like a great Yogi He [Jesus] lived a life of seclusion, cutting off all connections with earthly friends and relatives, and having neither home nor possessions of His own."

Jesus did not cut off all connections with earthly friends; Martha, Mary, and Lazarus were his close friends.

So what I am seeking is an understanding of how Mysticism came to be.  At the moment, it appears to have an origin of picking and choosing information, the same manner of which you accuse the Bible as originating.

(Also, as a point of clarification: the first two definitions for 'believe' in the American Heritage Dictionary are: 1. To accept as true or real: Do you believe the news stories?  2. To credit with veracity: I believe you.)

[sutemi]

Habitat, on 01 March 2012 - 05:05 AM, said:

ChloeB, the sages are unanimous, nothing that can be rendered in language is adequate to convey the experience of mystical union, so we must conclude something else at work here other than the divine. If it explainable, it is not "the secret that cannot be betrayed". Our little minds want to pigeon-hole and categorize, characterize and compare, but the divine does not yield to such devices.

Wise words 'H' can anyone really describe the taste of an apple?

[sutemi]

Shabd Mystic,
It seems I have upset you. Sorry about that. I realize now that any experience of the unstruck sound I could experience would be inferior to yours, that The Inner Light I experience would be inferior to yours, that in every way you are far more spiritual than I and of course that your teacher is far superior to any one else’s. take care

[karmakazi]

sutemi, on 01 March 2012 - 05:06 PM, said:

Wise words 'H' can anyone really describe the taste of an apple?

No, but we can hand the apple to a friend and encourage them to find out for themselves... and if they refuse, we accept that they aren't interested in apples today.

[ChloeB]

Habitat, on 01 March 2012 - 05:05 AM, said:

ChloeB, the sages are unanimous, nothing that can be rendered in language is adequate to convey the experience of mystical union, so we must conclude something else at work here other than the divine. If it explainable, it is not "the secret that cannot be betrayed". Our little minds want to pigeon-hole and categorize, characterize and compare, but the divine does not yield to such devices.

LOL, Habby, I always get the feeling that you're shooshing me.

[sutemi]

karmakazi, on 01 March 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

No, but we can hand the apple to a friend and encourage them to find out for themselves... and if they refuse, we accept that they aren't interested in apples today.

So so true  

[sutemi]

ChloeB, on 01 March 2012 - 04:27 AM, said:

This made me think of something.  There's sometimes I see things, and they just stick with me, they speak to me or something, I really don't know what it is, but this video, it's long, but just fast forward it to 10:30 with the gong:
http://video.google....65382017424  He talks about what happens when the sounds fades away....the one sound becomes the many, that's how the universe came to being, out of the one energy underlying all events.  That's kind of always what the bible talking about it all beginning with the "word" says to me.

CloeB, that film took me, back in those days I used to listen and read everything but as ‘habitat’ says it can’t be explained fully. The Gong was/is used because the devotees/students didn’t have the internal unstruck sound when one finds it within, what need of a Gong? It is called ’Unstruck’ because nothing created it. Word mantras have a problem, they are made by mind and what do you do when the phone rings? Lol.
Just a thought here, how about String theory, the so called theory of everything? It suggests that all objects in our universe are composed of vibrating filaments (strings) and membranes (branes) of energy.
Here’s a poem and song called ‘OM’ from those days, a favorite album of mine ’In search of the lost chord’ I used to have the album cover framed on my wall. Uh Oh, my little girl Charley has just told me to,’ sing in your head grand dad!’ lol. Take care

[Shabd Mystic]

sutemi, on 01 March 2012 - 05:08 PM, said:

Shabd Mystic,
It seems I have upset you. Sorry about that. I realize now that any experience of the unstruck sound I could experience would be inferior to yours, that The Inner Light I experience would be inferior to yours, that in every way you are far more spiritual than I and of course that your teacher is far superior to any one else's. take care

LOL! Boy you sure proved exactly what I have been saying. Thanks for that, I think.  

(I swear reading comprehension is an uncommon skill these days, but when you say anything that challenges anyone's ego, that's what you get in all but the rarest people.)


.

[ChloeB]

sutemi, on 01 March 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

CloeB, that film took me, back in those days I used to listen and read everything but as ‘habitat’ says it can’t be explained fully. The Gong was/is used because the devotees/students didn’t have the internal unstruck sound when one finds it within, what need of a Gong? It is called ’Unstruck’ because nothing created it. Word mantras have a problem, they are made by mind and what do you do when the phone rings? Lol.
Just a thought here, how about String theory, the so called theory of everything? It suggests that all objects in our universe are composed of vibrating filaments (strings) and membranes (branes) of energy.
Here’s a poem and song called ‘OM’ from those days, a favorite album of mine ’In search of the lost chord’ I used to have the album cover framed on my wall. Uh Oh, my little girl Charley has just told me to,’ sing in your head grand dad!’ lol. Take care

LOL, back to those days when you were like me, had your head in everything and yes, Habitat is shooshing me and that's why I believe, because I never shut up and listen for that unstruck sound, lol.  I love those gongs though, I always play with them at the new age store and there's something they do, like interfere with my frequency which is how I described that day driving I told you about, the frequency felt like it got interrupted and I felt like the car was sitting still, the road moving, back and forth, so anyhoo, I like those things.  And yes!!  See you are a brave man, I thought that about string theory, everything is composed of vibration, but I don't dare say anything because one of the science police will arrive and we will end having a geek-off and me being arrested for pseudoscience, but that was my thought too, and I was at the renfest this year, and they had music playing and someone had this little baby, old enough to stand up, maybe walk but still in diapers and a pacifier and that baby was moving to the drum beat, it is inside us, not learned, and what evolutionary reason is behind that I wonder?  Or where does that come from?

"Today, a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration – that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There's no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we're the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather." - Bill Hicks  

HA!  I never knew that was in search of the lost chord meant!  I liked the video, the cover is really awesome.  

Sing in your head grand-dad!!  A Simon Cowell in the making!!

Edited by ChloeB, 01 March 2012 - 06:34 PM.

[Shabd Mystic]

To Habitat and Paranoid Android,

I am thrilled beyond belief that you've each found a path that is nothing but "diamonds" (and I don't even want to get into a debate about which is right and which is wrong since they are polar opposites - since you guys love to debate, why don't you take up with each other?)

My question for you both is if you have found the ideal path why do you keep coming here to argue with me about that?

I am only sharing what I've found. Anything I say here can't change your path in any way whatsoever. If you are finding "diamonds" and I come here saying that history's great Masters have all said that ONLY one specific Path, that isn't "your" path, is the only "Real Path," how does that in any way change anything about your paths?

The ONLY reason you keep coming here to say you too have found "diamonds" is because what I have posted is in effect saying that you are "wrong" in what you believe.

If someone says you are wrong does that make you wrong? Does that affect your path in any way? No, of course not. All that can possibly hurts is "pride" (AKA ego).

How dare anyone post anything that says I might be WRONG? I guess I need to counter that before it ... before it what exactly?

Nobody ever singled you out and called you wrong. Your names were never even mentioned. All I did was share stuff that great Mystics have said. How dd that affect you in any way at all? Those quotations were mostly from books that have been around for centuries.

Your reactions aren't about the paths you follow or about the "masters" you follow or any religion you may follow. They are 100% about YOU.

So, since it's such a problem why don't you go after each other since you two are saying the exact same things about one another. That the other one is WRONG. That way you have a like-minded person who cares what somebody thinks about them and who will probably be happy to debate you for hours.

I just wanted to share some information. I wasn't looking to tick anyone off. I was hoping maybe I could challenge beliefs that many people have and get them to look deeper into them. If that didn't work, then I'd think people would just laugh at a crazy guy like me and move along. What I believe is no threat to anybody in any way. Well, except for anyone who can't live with anyone suggesting they are wrong about something.

You both have said i am wrong. I don't mind at all. i expect 99.9% of the world would say the same thing. I'm not trying to "prove I'm right." I'm merely supply information for people who just might be open to the possibility that they could be wrong about what they now believe. Only a handful have taken that as a blow to their egos. Most people just think I'm a fool. Why is that not enough for you guys? how am I hurting you?

If this will help, I take back everything I have posted and now see that you each have the 1 true path (you can work that out amongst yourself). All the Masters were wrong and I was wrong for repeating what they said.

Does that take care of it? Can we let this go now?


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