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why did satan get kicked out of heaven


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#796    No-thingBornPassion

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 09:16 AM

View PostReann, on 14 July 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:

No not that. I don't recall that part of the story . I think that it's told in the bible that Moses and the Israeli's   had  gathered up gold and silver from the Egyptians as they were fleeing  Egypt ,as if the Egyptians gave their gold and silver willingly  to them. I don't know for certain that they gave them anything willingly is what I am questioning.... I think that it's possible , that  the reason   why the Pharaoh went after them with his army, was because  he was angry when he  discovered what  they had  done to neighboring people . I think that it's possible that the Israeli's robbed them of their gold and silver...
You're talking about Exodus 12:36, but the King James doesn't use the word "plundered," but instead, the word is "spoiled." I'm sure you've heard, "To the victor go the spoils."

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#797    Zaphod222

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 09:24 AM

What I want to know is: Why did the Flying Spaghetti Monster got kicked out of Russels Teapot?

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#798    Jor-el

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 05:38 PM

View PostReann, on 14 July 2013 - 07:07 AM, said:

Well, of my own perception,  God  is  the  "Mind  of all Nature" , and is always watching , always aware , by it's own nature ..

Thus in your view God is inextricably linked to nature?

To me that is not God.... if God created nature in that he created the universe and everything in it (nature being a part of it), then God would have, of neccessity created himself as well...

No, one is an artifact, the other the creator of the artifact. You can build a house but you are not that house or even a part of it... that is what an artifact means...

View PostZaphod222, on 15 July 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

What I want to know is: Why did the Flying Spaghetti Monster got kicked out of Russels Teapot?

He didn't pay the bills.

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#799    Etu Malku

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 06:07 PM

View PostJor-el, on 15 July 2013 - 05:38 PM, said:

Thus in your view God is inextricably linked to nature?

To me that is not God.... if God created nature in that he created the universe and everything in it (nature being a part of it), then God would have, of neccessity created himself as well...
I gotta go with Reann here, what the principles, laws, and processes of the natural Universe is, those are what Mankind has assigned to Become God, not the other way around.

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No, one is an artifact, the other the creator of the artifact. You can build a house but you are not that house or even a part of it... that is what an artifact means...
A house is simply a geometrically-coordinated, gravitationally-braced and weatherproof arrangement of certain kinds of molecules. As various individuals design, decorate, occupy, or view the house, however, it is imbued with characteristics assigned to it by them. It now exists in their several subjective universes, and it may continue to exist there even after the 'objective' house has been demolished. None of this necessitates a god in order for it to happen.

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#800    Jor-el

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 07:10 PM

View PostEtu Malku, on 15 July 2013 - 06:07 PM, said:

I gotta go with Reann here, what the principles, laws, and processes of the natural Universe is, those are what Mankind has assigned to Become God, not the other way around.

Within the perspective of what we know God to be, He would by neccesity be outside of the natural universe, since to be within it, implies by our very basic understanding, a subservience to the very laws that govern it. God is not limited by the laws of nature, by the very characteristic of being God. Otherwise he would be something... but he would not be God.

To create the universe he would by logical neccesity also need to be outside its boundries... I think it is basic thought being applied here.. ie, it isn't hard to figure out.

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A house is simply a geometrically-coordinated, gravitationally-braced and weatherproof arrangement of certain kinds of molecules. As various individuals design, decorate, occupy, or view the house, however, it is imbued with characteristics assigned to it by them. It now exists in their several subjective universes, and it may continue to exist there even after the 'objective' house has been demolished. None of this necessitates a god in order for it to happen.

If you build, it still isn't you. You can use, it abandon it, revamp it, do what you want with it, but it still isn't you... You cannot extend yourself to it. Your character can be displayed within it by people seeing how you decorate it, but all in all it will never be you or a part of you.

Edited by Jor-el, 15 July 2013 - 07:11 PM.

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#801    danielost

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 08:39 PM

22] And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end

http://www.bookofmor...org/nephi2.html

I am sharing this because of another thread.

2nd nephi chapter 2

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#802    danielost

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 08:41 PM

God would be limited to the rules of this universe, if he interacts with it.  Of course we don't know what all those rules are.

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#803    Etu Malku

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 11:44 PM

View PostJor-el, on 15 July 2013 - 07:10 PM, said:

Within the perspective of what we know God to be, He would by neccesity be outside of the natural universe, since to be within it, implies by our very basic understanding, a subservience to the very laws that govern it. God is not limited by the laws of nature, by the very characteristic of being God. Otherwise he would be something... but he would not be God.
Here lies THE biggest problem here, that you nor anyone else knows anything about this god, you either go by a book written by Man, or by what you 'feel' in your heart, which is probably due to reading the same book written by Man. At no time has this god laid down the "Law" for all to see and for none to ignore.

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To create the universe he would by logical neccesity also need to be outside its boundries... I think it is basic thought being applied here.. ie, it isn't hard to figure out.
Agreed, this is a toughy to wrap the brain around

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#804    Jor-el

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 06:18 PM

View PostEtu Malku, on 15 July 2013 - 11:44 PM, said:

Here lies THE biggest problem here, that you nor anyone else knows anything about this god, you either go by a book written by Man, or by what you 'feel' in your heart, which is probably due to reading the same book written by Man. At no time has this god laid down the "Law" for all to see and for none to ignore.

Agreed, this is a toughy to wrap the brain around

Oh he has, a number of times...  the latest version is known as the bible.

You can claim it is written by man, and it was, their hand that penned it for sure, but behind that hand it was God inspiring them and directing them even dictating to them.

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#805    Etu Malku

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 07:15 PM

View PostJor-el, on 16 July 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

Oh he has, a number of times...  the latest version is known as the bible.
I believe that was part of my point

Quote

You can claim it is written by man, and it was, their hand that penned it for sure, but behind that hand it was God inspiring them and directing them even dictating to them.
Just as you can "claim" it was directed/dictated by a god.

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#806    Jor-el

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 07:33 PM

View PostEtu Malku, on 16 July 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

I believe that was part of my point

Just as you can "claim" it was directed/dictated by a god.

Of course, that is the quagmire of this debate, no-one has evidence of such things either way.. if we did it wouldn't be contested naturally.

All I can give is my position which has been amply debated. That being said, there are indeed a number of things we can state about God, if we ignore the scriptures as a whole.

One is that God created the universe and us along with it, Two, that God does seem to be leading us somewhere and that we are all playing a part in that grand scheme of his. Three that the ultimate purpose of such a plan is for our benefit even if it does not immediately seem to be apparant what that benefit is.

Many people talk of control and us being marionettes or that he wants slaves or some such parallel idea, but it seems to me that if this were indeed the case, God would not have to go to such extremes as, illusion of free will, the lack of clear evidence of his existence among other well known arguments... he could cut to the chase and make us do what he wanted... no inconvenience on his part to do so in any way.

Why the run around then if that was or is Gods intent?

The only logical answer is that such is not hius intent and that something else is in order, hence my initial position.

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#807    Etu Malku

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 08:01 PM

View PostJor-el, on 16 July 2013 - 07:33 PM, said:

Of course, that is the quagmire of this debate, no-one has evidence of such things either way.. if we did it wouldn't be contested naturally.

All I can give is my position which has been amply debated. That being said, there are indeed a number of things we can state about God, if we ignore the scriptures as a whole.

One is that God created the universe and us along with it, Two, that God does seem to be leading us somewhere and that we are all playing a part in that grand scheme of his. Three that the ultimate purpose of such a plan is for our benefit even if it does not immediately seem to be apparant what that benefit is.
Without scripture to guide you, how did you arrive at these ideas?

Quote

Many people talk of control and us being marionettes or that he wants slaves or some such parallel idea, but it seems to me that if this were indeed the case, God would not have to go to such extremes as, illusion of free will, the lack of clear evidence of his existence among other well known arguments... he could cut to the chase and make us do what he wanted... no inconvenience on his part to do so in any way.

Why the run around then if that was or is Gods intent?

The only logical answer is that such is not hius intent and that something else is in order, hence my initial position.
Ah yes, the old . . . "since I can't comprehend certain things, then these things MUST be the work of god and He works in 'mysterious ways'

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#808    danielost

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 08:30 PM

View PostEtu Malku, on 16 July 2013 - 08:01 PM, said:

Without scripture to guide you, how did you arrive at these ideas?

Ah yes, the old . . . "since I can't comprehend certain things, then these things MUST be the work of god and He works in 'mysterious ways'

That is better than the new saying.  If I can't comperhind it, it was an accident.

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#809    No-thingBornPassion

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 07:56 AM

View PostEtu Malku, on 16 July 2013 - 08:01 PM, said:

Without scripture to guide you, how did you arrive at these ideas?

Ah yes, the old . . . "since I can't comprehend certain things, then these things MUST be the work of god and He works in 'mysterious ways'
Hi Etu Malku,

Here's my side of the story:
Since I've already seen Jesus Christ, I can now afford to believe that other people in the Bible saw Him, conversed with the Father, wrote about Them, etc. Therefore, I'm working backwards to better understand His life, why He's the Messiah. From seeing to learning Jesus' story, it's the reverse, compared to what most Christians go through. I'm using the Bible because it's the only ANCIENT book that actually tells the world Jesus Christ is God, "uncreated" -- no other book tells His supreme nature like it is -- and All Powerful's the way I understood Him in the afterlife. He's NO minor god.

On the other hand, Jesus never gave me a message to share to the world. There's nothing special about me (psychically speaking), no supernatural powers and so on. I'm no prophet, either. One could either ignore my story, or get inspired by it. I'm completely unattached. Not entirely, I enjoy sharing my thoughts and hearing other people's POV...

I understand why people have a hard time with Bible. Thing is, just seeing Jesus Christ is NOT a guarantee of total conversion. The story of the Exodus is a good example of that, as in the Golden Calf, and also Judas. So yes, one has to accept Him in one's heart. Catch 22? In the end, it's by grace alone; however,
Revelation 3:20 tells us: "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."

Perhaps I've also been broken down by life enough to appreciate the initial contact, the personal experience... The rest is history.

Amazing grace, how sweet the sound
That sav’d a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.

’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears reliev’d;
How precious did that grace appear,
The hour I first believ’d!

Thro’ many dangers, toils and snares,
I have already come;
’Tis grace has brought me safe thus far,
And grace will lead me home.

The Lord has promis’d good to me,
His word my hope secures;
He will my shield and portion be,
As long as life endures.

Yes, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
And mortal life shall cease;
I shall possess, within the veil,
A life of joy and peace.

The earth shall soon dissolve like snow,
The sun forbear to shine;
But God, who call’d me here below,
Will be forever mine.

Just sharing.

Edited by braveone2u, 17 July 2013 - 08:01 AM.

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According to Gnosticism, Christ came to world to give us a way out; so, why is Gnosticism so secretive and elitist when it comes to salvation??
“Moses approached the dark cloud where God was.”

#810    danielost

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 11:14 AM

If we were/are puppets and god the puppet master, why is there so much meseary on the planet.  A puppet does not have a choice but to do what the puppet master says.

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.




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