98 replies to this topic

[TrueBeliever]

Seeker79, on 10 November 2012 - 03:19 PM, said:

As a person with three kids, if you tried to force sterilize me or any of my children, I would basically shoot you. With that said my vesectomy is planned.

Some of your ideas about what it takes to raise children is rooted in your own materialistc consumption habits. Kids need to be warm, nutritious food, and to be loved. It's not that hard and it's not really that expensive. Welfare is a joke. I was raised in a travel trailer with no welfare sometimes without even electricity. I made it just fine.  

Don't worry. Nature knows how to take care of over population. It might not be pretty, but it wouldn't be the first time either.

it's about having enough for everyone............nature 'knows' how to do' alot of things, but being a civilized people(I wonder sometimes if we really are) we like to manage our lives and prevent disaster not be at the mercy of nature. That is called progress and civilization. I think it is you being materialistic and you are more concerned with your rights than your responsibilities when you say you would shoot someone trying to stop your 'right'...........I would hope forced sterilization was never needed. But so many want their 'rights' at the expense of being responsible......I am sure you are a responsible person, but being lopsided about your 'rights' to the exclusion of anything else isn't going to work. Overpopulation is a REAL problem that affects us all.

[Seeker79]

Beckys_Mom, on 10 November 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

Best reply to this thread so far.. I think I would do the same...if I had a gun   lol



Absouletly  bang on...

Well Said Seeker..

No? But it looks like you have a kickass bow

[redhen]

Artaxerxes, on 10 November 2012 - 02:21 PM, said:

While in college the book "The Population Bomb" by Ehrlich was required reading in Biology 101.  It had a profound impact on my thinking.   The effects of overpopulation seemed so obvious to me.  

Yup, they pooh-poohed Ehrlich back in the day as a doomsayer. His numbers were off because of the effect of the Green Revolution which enabled places like Africa to stave off starvation. But that only delayed and aggravated the problem by exponentially increasing the population.

Paul Ehrlich features in this short trailer on human overpopulation and the current mass extinction of other species. Richard Leakey also makes an appearance.




In 1992, the Union of Concerned Scientists, which includes the majority of Nobel laureates in the sciences, issued this warning:

"The earth is finite. Its ability to absorb wastes and destructive effluent is finite. Its ability to provide food and energy is finite. Its ability to provide for growing numbers of people is finite. And we are fast approaching many of the earth's limits."

http://www.ucsusa.or...scientists.html

It's going to take a shift in thinking on the part of world leaders, economists and developers. The sacred concept that human growth is good and necessary for a nation's health (GDP) is no longer acceptable. The time for that is past.

Edited by redhen, 10 November 2012 - 03:31 PM.

[redhen]

The OP's concern about the relationship between Christianity and overpopulation is unfounded. Spain and Italy, two staunch Catholic countries are tied with Japan for the least amount of population growth. Europe and North America is not the problem, their populations would be shrinking were it not for immigration. Nations where populations are exploding tend to be places where there are no social safety nets, no welfare. So they have 12 children and hope a few live long enough to support them in old age.

One Trillion dollars in aid has flowed to Africa in the past 60 years. This strategy does not work, poverty is worse than it ever was. Kleptocratic dictators line their own pockets with that money, buy fighter jets from China and Russian tanks, and abdicate their responsibilities to their own citizens. This applies not just to Africa of course. The British are rethinking aid to Pakistan, a country that has it's own nuclear weapons and space program. Corruption is rampant in a lot of countries, aid to these countries just makes it worse.

[Beckys_Mom]

Seeker79, on 10 November 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

No? But it looks like you have a kickass bow

Yup  I sure do..lol

I wouldn't want my kids taken  to be sterilized...  I feel  it is a persons right to decide  whether or not they want to have more kids...  If we take away  their rights to have so many kids, that will cause more destruction..   Just look how they react  about abortions?  Need I say more?

[TrueBeliever]

When humans focus more on responsibility than rights then we will all fare better in this world.

[Seeker79]

TrueBeliever, on 10 November 2012 - 03:26 PM, said:

it's about having enough for everyone............nature 'knows' how to do' alot of things, but being a civilized people(I wonder sometimes if we really are) we like to manage our lives and prevent disaster not be at the mercy of nature. That is called progress and civilization. I think it is you being materialistic and you are more concerned with your rights than your responsibilities when you say you would shoot someone trying to stop your 'right'...........I would hope forced sterilization was never needed. But so many want their 'rights' at the expense of being responsible......I am sure you are a responsible person, but being lopsided about your 'rights' to the exclusion of anything else isn't going to work. Overpopulation is a REAL problem that affects us all.

It dosn't affect YOU at all. It affects your own feeling of entitlement to the availability of resources.  You don't need anything more than a core temoreture of 98.6 degrees, few simple vegetables, some nuts, water, a lover and the occasional rabbit or chicken. What you are really worried about is your car, your cable television, extravagant meals at mcdonolds, and own rights to the resources of the earth. You want a high standard of living and preach about responsibility to protect your own extravagant tastes.

Your attitude is the sprout of eletism. You want to limit other people ( inevitably people with less money) to protect resources that you want to claim for yourself.

You see it's not overpopulation that is the problem. It's over consumption. You want people to give up haveing children, but probably are not willing to give up your car.

[TrueBeliever]

Seeker79, on 10 November 2012 - 03:45 PM, said:

It dosn't affect YOU at all. It affects your own feeling of entitlement to the availability of resources.  You don't need anything more than a core temoreture of 98.6 degrees, few simple vegetables, some nuts, water, a lover and the occasional rabbit or chicken. What you are really worried about is your car, your cable television, extravagant meals at mcdonolds, and own rights to the resources of the earth. You want a high standard of living and preach about responsibility to protect your own extravagant tastes.

Your attitude is the sprout of eletism. You want to limit other people ( inevitably people with less money) to protect resources that you want to claim for yourself.

You see it's not overpopulation that is the problem. It's over consumption. You want people to give up haveing children, but probably are not willing to give up your car.

I want people to have good healthcare, a good job, and a healthy environment. Overconsumption is also a problem, you have no argument form me there. But so is overpopulation.....I don't want people to give up having children, but I think a limit shouldn't be out of the question either. I actually live quite simply, I walk when I can, I recycle.......you don't know me, but if you need to judge me so be it...judge away. I think overpopulation is a problem. It doesn't take a science or mathematics degree to understand that.

[Beckys_Mom]

TrueBeliever, on 10 November 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

When humans focus more on responsibility than rights then we will all fare better in this world.

I agree we need to focus more on responsibility... But  we live in a world  full of people that will not understand it, nor will they care enough to agree....

I only have the two kids myself and it was hell to get them...I stop at just the two and I don't want any more.. But that is my own decision..
I am glad I can make that decision and no one is dictating to me what I can and cannot do

Seeker has pointed out that the problem being is consumption, I feel he has made a point ..

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 10 November 2012 - 04:18 PM.

[redhen]

Beckys_Mom, on 10 November 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

I only have the two kids myself and it was hell to get them...I stop at just the two and I don't want any more.. But that is my own decision..

Indeed, we do need to reproduce in order to survive as a species. The magic replacement number is 2.1, lol, yeah I know, how do you have .1 child? Any more than 2 children and you get a quick lesson in exponential numbers.

Perhaps this is not the right sub-forum. Even though the OP is concerned that Christianity is to blame for overpopulation, that is simply not the case.

[Beckys_Mom]

redhen, on 10 November 2012 - 04:26 PM, said:

the OP is concerned that Christianity is to blame for overpopulation, that is simply not the case.

I suggest you scroll back and re-read..  The OP is not saying Christianity is to blame for overpopulation,  the OP  is saying that so many fundamentalist Christians think over population is a myth

[Seeker79]

TrueBeliever, on 10 November 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

I want people to have good healthcare, a good job, and a healthy environment. Overconsumption is also a problem, you have no argument form me there. But so is overpopulation.....I don't want people to give up having children, but I think a limit shouldn't be out of the question either. I actually live quite simply, I walk when I can, I recycle.......you don't know me, but if you need to judge me so be it...judge away. I think overpopulation is a problem. It doesn't take a science or mathematics degree to understand that.

Actually it does and helps a whole lot. I have a degree an economics... Which interestingly enough is what we are talking about ultimately. I'm not judging you I was speaking generally after all I have a Toyota tundra and 3 kids and a party pontoon  boat.

I also study permaculture and have a permaculture garden, I also teach traditional native American skills.

Why have a good job? To make more money. Why? To consume more.

Personal responsibility is the key. You are dead on. But it's not totally about population. If the world consumed 20 times less, then it could handle ten times more. Population is a gnat in a swarm of locusts. It's our way of living that's the problem. sustainable resources can go a long way,

Whatch the documentaries "fresh". "happy" "food matters".

By the way good health care for everyone is not going to help with population? just saying.

As I suggested earlier. Population will evenchually reach parity with sustainability, the rythems of nature knows what it's doing and we do not live outside the circle. We should do our part and focus on Stewartship rather than rape. Once we do that the rest will fall inline. Unfortunately I'm not so optimistic everyone can ultimately make the necessary sacrifices. It's hard enough talking my wife into certain things and breaking my own consumer habits.

[Beckys_Mom]

Seeker79, on 10 November 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

Why have a good job? To make more money. Why? To consume more.

Same with my husbands own business..  The harder he works, the more business he gets.. all for the money...We also save quite a bit too for our kids future..

I work for him part time, but I don't earn a penny  ... The cheap git! lol

[Seeker79]

Beckys_Mom, on 10 November 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

I suggest you scroll back and re-read..  The OP is not saying Christianity is to blame for overpopulation,  the OP  is saying that so many fundamentalist Christians think over population is a myth

They just say that because they are against birth control, and haveing a jarge part of the earth follow an apocalyptic religion, they want their prophecies to come true for validation. Why create a sustainable existence on the earth when it's going to be destroyed anyway. Or if we manage to actually do it, then their religion is wrong. Quite a bit of cognitive dissidence I'm afraid.

Edited by Seeker79, 10 November 2012 - 05:20 PM.

[TrueBeliever]

redhen, on 10 November 2012 - 04:26 PM, said:

Indeed, we do need to reproduce in order to survive as a species. The magic replacement number is 2.1, lol, yeah I know, how do you have .1 child? Any more than 2 children and you get a quick lesson in exponential numbers.

Perhaps this is not the right sub-forum. Even though the OP is concerned that Christianity is to blame for overpopulation, that is simply not the case.

I think I didn't make myself clear in my OP.....I am more curious about the attitude of overpopulation 'being a myth' and the belief that just letting nature take it's course and that that will solve it ....and of course those with issues with contraception are religious....of which I think needs addressed....I do not think overpopulation is a christianity problem, but I am fascinated/shocked by people's viewpoints....and this is just one area i was addressing. I don't think it is a black and white issue, and there are many angles and viewpoints to consider. I hope I made myself clear. lol Sometimes i don't do so well at that!