Why do they do it?

[Lilly]

I have been wondering why the discussion of UFOs seems to attract so many people with beliefs that are outrageous (to say the very least). Why does this particular subject seem to collect fringe proponents like spilled honey collects flies? One only has to look at some of the posters here to see exactly what I'm talking about.

A large part of the problem seems to be something akin to the fallacy of poisoning the well. For some reason when the subject of UFOs first caught the interest of the modern world, it also caught the interest of those with far more imagination than critical thought. Soon, some people began to tell amazing tales of not only seeing unknown objects in the sky, but contact with aliens and riding in 'flying saucers". Modern popular culture ran with this notion and stories about aliens and space ships became part of modern mythology. Recently, 'alien abduction' has been added to the mix...never any solid evidence, just more stories.

The early attempts to investigate UFOs seemed to come up with nothing more than anecdotal evidence. And, with the advent of all this fringe activity, real scientific curiousity regarding the subject waned. It's now to the point where any real scientist worth his salt simply won't *touch* the subject of UFOs. Yet, credible, sane people continue to see objects in the sky that seem to defy explanation.

Cases such as the Cash/Landrum UFO presented a great deal of evidence, this was not something that took place just in someone's imagination. Yet, it's the outrageous and the sensational that most people know about...once again fueling the imagination of a generation who see Star Wars and Star trek as indistinguishable from objective reality.

Where does this leave things? It leaves us with a subject that's completely trashed and considered to be complete *garbage* by most of the scientific community. God forbide one actually sees something unusual, because noone with an ounce of reason is going to take you seriously! I'm left with the speculation that if an alien space probe did approach the Earth next week (a la Arthur C. Clarke's Rama) would anyone even want to risk pointing this out? Also, what if these UFOs have nothing at all to do with aliens. What if UFOs are something entirely different? This phenomena then goes uninvestigated due to the total poisoning of the subject! What a shame.

[Hazzard]

Its nice to think that either Earth or its human inhabitants have not only attracted the attention of galactic neighbors, but encouraged them to visit. But frankly, the numbers dont give much support to this somewhat self-indulgent idea.

Our radio signals travel at the speed of light, and this means that even with infinitely fast spacecraft, the aliens cant be farther off than 15 light-years to have reached our lovely planet by 1947(Roswell). The number of star systems within 15 light-years is about three dozen. There would have to be 10 billion technically sophisticated societies in the Galaxy to have a reasonable chance of finding one camped out among the nearest three dozen stars. Thats optimism of a high level indeed.

[Lilly]

Its nice to think that either Earth or its human inhabitants have not only attracted the attention of galactic neighbors, but encouraged them to visit. But frankly, the numbers dont give much support to this somewhat self-indulgent idea.

Absolutely, the chances are far, far greater that UFOs are something other than alien space craft. Yet, due to the *trashing of the subject*, I don't think there's any real scientific investigation being done on unknown ariel phenomena. Also, due to this utter *trashing* even the idea of the possibility of life elsewhere will get you a chuckle from some people. Many people don't want to even be remotely associated with anything considered to be 'fringe'.

[zukie&jim]

exactly the odds of a ETBI manning a spacecraft on earth is very,very low.

99% of the time i have a good guess at the real object behind the UFO sighting. but most of the time i just let um go because "they" allready know they have had some contact with ET !--LOL

people see what they want to see--plain and simple.

[Bogeyman]

exactly the odds of a ETBI manning a spacecraft on earth is very,very low.

99% of the time i have a good guess at the real object behind the UFO sighting. but most of the time i just let um go because "they" allready know they have had some contact with ET !--LOL

people see what they want to see--plain and simple.

Why dont you enlighten us then ? What are all or the majority of the sightings ?

What i dont understand is this...all you guys and gals go out of your way to debunk everything that people say in here .You have this inbuilt sense of self righteousness and arrogance ....you assume that you're right ,no matter what people tell you they've seen ,no matter what pictures or video's you see .Lily's point about the well being poisoned is a valid one but that doesnt mean the poison cant be removed from the mix.

This thing about the speed of light is complete bulls*** as far as i'm concerned because it's to do with our understanding of physics thats all........how do we know there are not other ways of getting around ? WE DONT ...no matter what you might say.A 100 years ago we were still travelling in steam trains.....Now if it's all so cut and dried with you....why bother even coming here to see what people arer talking about ?You have every right of course but why keep talking about and getting involved in what you believe to be BS ?

Edited January 10, 2006 by Bogeyman

[Carl Butters]

Absolutely, the chances are far, far greater that UFOs are something other than alien space craft. Yet, due to the *trashing of the subject*, I don't think there's any real scientific investigation being done on unknown ariel phenomena. Also, due to this utter *trashing* even the idea of the possibility of life elsewhere will get you a chuckle from some people. Many people don't want to even be remotely associated with anything considered to be 'fringe'.

actually i would disagree with you on your notion that science doesnt investigate "ufos" because of the "trashing of the subject". sociologists (soft science) are indeed studieing the phenomena within the boundaries of their discipline. what i think you mean , i apologize for assuming, but it seems reasonable to conclude, is why isnt physicists getting involved? the reason for this is actually very simple. there is no evidence. there is nothing to test. no proof whatso ever , and no acknowledgement is givin, this has happened time and again throughout the history of phsyics, to untestable ideas. one must have a valuable hypothesis, and that hypothesis must be testable. the ufo enigma is simply not testable, within the scope that people believe the phenomenon is.

however there are some scientists that are studieing the phenomena within their displinary boundaries.

plasma physicists have been working on the hypothesis of the pazeo electric effect on the atsmosphere, thusly creating lights in the sky, plasma's.

pyscologists are studieing the phenomena's effects on people. this, like sociology is a soft science, but a science none the less.

so it is not necessarily that the fringe elements of society impede science's attention on the subject, but rather , it is that there is no evidence that the phenomena (as many believe it is, ie aliens) for them to test.

i can tell you right now , that there are many physicists and scientists, professors, etc,,that are interested in the ufo debate. but they can not and will not get involved until they have enough evidence, or a hypothesis, that can be tested through the rigors of science.

[Hazzard]

This thing about the speed of light is complete bulls*** as far as i'm concerned because it's to do with our understanding of physics thats all

What els is there than our understanding of physics to debate with any kind of certainly,the universe seem to have a built in speed limit,unless we are talking science fiction.

........how do we know there are not other ways of getting around ? WE DONT ...no matter what you might say.

Irrelevant and speculative,lets stick to what we do know,if not, everything is possible.This is the kind of woo wooness in the debate that destroys the credibility of the UFO fenomenon.When push came to shove, and when pressed as to whether there’s real proof of extraterrestrial visitation, the believers back off by saying that “well, we don’t know where they come from. But something is definitely going on.” The latter statement is hardly controversial. The former is merely goofy. If the saucers are not from outer space, where, exactly, are they from? Belgium?

[Bogeyman]

.

Irrelevant and speculative,lets stick to what we do know,if not, everything is possible.This is the kind of woo wooness in the debate that destroys the credibility of the UFO fenomenon.When push came to shove,

Rubbish ,absolute rubbish

If we just stuck to what we know we'd still be riding round in horse and carriages.

All scientific breakthroughs start with the Null hypothesis.As Einstein said and i'm paraphrasing and ounce of imagination is worth a ton of intelligence.

Heres a Hypothesis for you.

The Universe is what, 5-6 billion years old ? There could possibly be species that have had this long to evolve.

Or hows about another Hypothesis......Given the age of the universe it 's possible that some civilisations have had thousands / millions of years more than us to evolve in culture and intelligence.And may possibley have found alternative methods of galactic travel other than what we're familiar with.

Etc .

What gets to me is that people dont even consider this a possibility....it's just we know this and so we should base everything on that and consider nothing else....dont you think thats arrogant ?

Edited January 10, 2006 by Bogeyman

[Hazzard]

The Universe is what, 5-6 billion years old ?

Triple that and you are getting close.

There could possibly be species that have had this long to evolve.

Or hows about another Hypothesis......Given the age of the universe it 's possible that some civilisations have had thousands / millions of years more than us to evolve in culture and intelligence.And may possibley have found alternative methods of galactic travel other than what we're familiar with.

Yes its true that anything is possible.It is also possible that green pigs come here on a regular basis from the 12th dimension every xmas using the warpflux generator,hey, you never know,right.

I mean that even if, after receiving an earthly transmission, the aliens can immediately scramble their spacecraft and fly to Earth at the speed of light, they cant be farther than 8 light-years away to have arrived by 1947. There are four star systems within this distance. Count em, four. Were back to winning the lottery.

What about warp drive? Maybe the aliens can create wormholes and get here in essentially no time. It doesnt matter. Our signals travel at the speed of light, and this means that even with infinitely fast spacecraft, the aliens cant be farther off than 15 light-years to have reached our lovely planet by 1947.

But I guess its possible that they also have a timemachine.

Edited January 10, 2006 by hazzard

[leftovers]

do most of you guys not believe in aliens?...thats the feeling i get.... why would you come to a discussion board on aliens and ufos if you dont believe in them? seems kinda silly..................

Edited January 10, 2006 by leftovers

[rapid7]

Lol

Although I freely admit the subject of UFO's/Aliens does attract more than it's fair share of weirdos. Understatment.

You can't say all the witnesses are fantasist or deluded, well ok you can if you want but that would be more than a little arrogant in my book. Science doesn't like eye witness testomony and I believe this is a flaw when dealing with a subject of this nature. Remember it only takes one case to be true and then the skeptic's will be wrong, or 'incorrect' on their current belief system.

Privately, many scientist believe that Aliens are already here and the Goverment knows all about them but 'they know the score' and would never publicly state this. I've personally spoken to quite a few on this very subject. Also remember that to think 'you' have access to all the scientific data on the subject of UFO's is also arrogant and frankly very naive.

What makes me laugh is all the rational scientic people who insist on telling of should that be patronising the people who believe 'aliens are here' the current majority scientific view point. Yes, we are all aware of thank you very much.

[The Skeptic Eric Raven]

do most of you guys not believe in aliens?...thats the feeling i get.... why would you come to a discussion board on aliens and ufos if you dont believe in them? seems kinda silly..................

We love the idea of them, but using logic the possibility seems unlikely that they are visiting us. I do believe there is life somewhere in the universe(even highly intelligent), but I don't believe they are visiting us. We come here because it interests us.

[leftovers]

seems like people are debunking anything someone says thats a lil out there....the whole topic is a lil out there...dont you admit.

[Bogeyman]

Triple that and you are getting close.

Yes its true that anything is possible.It is also possible that green pigs come here on a regular basis from the 12th dimension every xmas using the warpflux generator,hey, you never know,right.

I mean that even if, after receiving an earthly transmission, the aliens can immediately scramble their spacecraft and fly to Earth at the speed of light, they cant be farther than 8 light-years away to have arrived by 1947. There are four star systems within this distance. Count em, four. Were back to winning the lottery.

What about warp drive? Maybe the aliens can create wormholes and get here in essentially no time. It doesnt matter. Our signals travel at the speed of light, and this means that even with infinitely fast spacecraft, the aliens cant be farther off than 15 light-years to have reached our lovely planet by 1947.

But I guess its possible that they also have a timemachine.

Well Haz the fact is that there may be even stranger things than Green Pigs out there ...as a matter of fact i'd nearly bank on it.

After recieving an earthly transmission ? who's to say they were'nt here watching the Dinosaurs ...after all an interesting place to visit back then ,right ?.

I dont know about a time machine ....but i do know that the faster you go time slows down this is a proven fact even with our meagre technology so who knows what extremely advanced technology is capable of right ? ...if it's there of course !.

Look i'm not saying this is definite or thats definite but what i have always said and will continue to say is this .....

We were still in the steam era 100 years ago.

Since 1962 (43 years) we've been to the moon,sent a probe outside our solar system into deep space.

Landed probes on other planets.

Devised weapons and planes that can fly at several times the speed of sound.

It's a recognised fact that secret technology can do things we at present dont think can be done.

Is it really such a leap of faith to think that there could possibly be advanced species out there that have made the next giant leap of reaching other habitated worlds ?

I understand what you're saying about the supposed limit of travel speed,but my point is that our own history is littered with things that 100 years before would have been inconcievable and are now the norm....wont you even accept this ?

Warp drive ? .....bending time and space ....What the hell do we know about time and space and how they interact ? not a lot really but i do know that we're discovering new exciting stuff all the time about it ,and we've only taken the first infant steps with it so again....maybe, just maybe who am i to say !.

on this point how many video's and photographs have been taken of ufo's down the years....i'll have a rough guestimate of say 150,000 ? ...is every single one a hoax or explainable as current technology ? i dont think they are, i believe that loads and loads are genuine but as Lily says the well is poisoned ,i still think though that they're there .

Last thing why dont they just contact us and be bloody done with it ? well i presume if we landed on another world we'd be guided by the planets leaders on what to do and how to establish contact......look at who we're relying on to be honest with us!

Edited January 10, 2006 by Bogeyman

[Mind_Freak]

We love the idea of them, but using logic the possibility seems unlikely that they are visiting us. I do believe there is life somewhere in the universe(even highly intelligent), but I don't believe they are visiting us. We come here because it interests us.

Why wouldn't it be logical? Because we have never heard (for a fact) that it happens, in our lifetime? I wouldn't say the possibility is unlikely, I would just say it was a possibility. Unlikely would be the green pig thing that hazzard mentioned...I'm not saying that I completely agree with people who say that they are visiting us, but I agree with them as far as opening the mind to new possibilites. New possibilities, other than the ones our parents, and their parents, and their parents, were lead to believe by 'the media'. If you want to think logically, realize how much we are not being told. Not aliens neccesarily, but as far technology, and other things that are 'out of our hands'. BTW, I'm sure I don't have to tell you this Eric (but it will make me feel better), this is not an attack on you at all. The words you used sparked a flame...

[Bogeyman]

Lol

Although I freely admit the subject of UFO's/Aliens does attract more than it's fair share of weirdos. Understatment.

You can't say all the witnesses are fantasist or deluded, well ok you can if you want but that would be more than a little arrogant in my book. Science doesn't like eye witness testomony and I believe this is a flaw when dealing with a subject of this nature. Remember it only takes one case to be true and then the skeptic's will be wrong, or 'incorrect' on their current belief system.

Privately, many scientist believe that Aliens are already here and the Goverment knows all about them but 'they know the score' and would never publicly state this. I've personally spoken to quite a few on this very subject. Also remember that to think 'you' have access to all the scientific data on the subject of UFO's is also arrogant and frankly very naive.

What makes me laugh is all the rational scientic people who insist on telling of should that be patronising the people who believe 'aliens are here' the current majority scientific view point. Yes, we are all aware of thank you very much.

I used to be in your camp ...Sceptical but on the other hand ...maybe .I wish i still was i really do.Unfortunately i saw sh** that i knew was very very unlikely to be made with our technology....doing 90 degree turns at extreme speeds ,blinking out of sight....literally blinking out, again at enormous speeds....now i know that this means nothing because it was a personal thing but i now find myself in the precarious position of being lumped in with the cranks ,liars and deluded and having to try open peoples eyes to something that is all too easy to debunk and snigger at.

I wish i hadnt seen stuff that my head and heart tell me is not ours but there ya go and here i am, doing what i never thought i would ,trying to convince people that theres weird sh** goin on ....if it's our technology well all well and good but every expert i've ever seen says that what i saw is just not possible with our current technology ...also what kind of body would stand up to it ?

These guys know whats goin on and included are some of the smartest minds around ...are they all deluded also ?

http://www.disclosureproject.org/

[Paranormalcy]

Setting aside hoaxes, misidentification and some sightings and events that I'm sure ARE "government" projects, experiments and such, I don't think the rest of the UFOs and aliens are necessarily extra-terrestrial - I'm more inclined to believe their nature is more subtle and definitely nothing "new" to human experience, though the appearance of the technology may be.

[The Skeptic Eric Raven]

Why wouldn't it be logical? Because we have never heard (for a fact) that it happens, in our lifetime? I wouldn't say the possibility is unlikely, I would just say it was a possibility. Unlikely would be the green pig thing that hazzard mentioned...I'm not saying that I completely agree with people who say that they are visiting us, but I agree with them as far as opening the mind to new possibilites. New possibilities, other than the ones our parents, and their parents, and their parents, were lead to believe by 'the media'. If you want to think logically, realize how much we are not being told. Not aliens neccesarily, but as far technology, and other things that are 'out of our hands'. BTW, I'm sure I don't have to tell you this Eric (but it will make me feel better), this is not an attack on you at all. The words you used sparked a flame...

Why wouldn't it be logical? Because we have never heard (for a fact) that it happens, in our lifetime? I wouldn't say the possibility is unlikely, I would just say it was a possibility. Unlikely would be the green pig thing that hazzard mentioned...I'm not saying that I completely agree with people who say that they are visiting us, but I agree with them as far as opening the mind to new possibilites. New possibilities, other than the ones our parents, and their parents, and their parents, were lead to believe by 'the media'. If you want to think logically, realize how much we are not being told. Not aliens neccesarily, but as far technology, and other things that are 'out of our hands'. BTW, I'm sure I don't have to tell you this Eric (but it will make me feel better), this is not an attack on you at all. The words you used sparked a flame...

You know me wabbit. I never have a problem with anything you post. I didn't say that visiting us is impossible. I just think it is not probable. The problem with people that believe anything and everything involving ufos(not you) is that it takes away believability of the whole thing.

[leftovers]

so your suggesting our govts have this technology?....i saw two triangular ships the size of football fields in fla ....i didnt see usa markings on them just a series of numbers....do you think the govt has ships like that....wow

[Mind_Freak]

You know me wabbit. I never have a problem with anything you post.

Yeah, I know *thinks back* Ahh, "wabbit"...Good times!!!

I didn't say that visiting us is impossible. I just think it is not probable.

I don't understand how you could even use the word probable in something such as them visiting us. I think it's more of a matter of 'when'...Ya know? To me using ''probable'' in something like this would be like, the probablilty that an ant would land on my middle toe-nail... It just doesn't really work that way (IMO)...Again, no problem wit ya

The problem with people that believe anything and everything involving ufos(not you) is that it takes away believability of the whole thing.

I know just what you mean. And call me paranoid, but I think the government wants it, just that way...

Edited January 10, 2006 by Mind_Freak

[King Triad]

I know just what you mean. And call me paranoid, but I think the government wants it, just that way...

i wouldnt call you paranoid....we are programmed to believe none of this

[Mind_Freak]

i wouldnt call you paranoid....we are programmed to believe none of this

Programmed? I'm pretty sure I can stand out from the typical person...Can't I?

I think some people have the mental capacity to challenge what they were originally taught, and some just go on with their lives the way they were taught to do...I, for one, am a very inquisitive person. I don't have a 'set' mind. My mind adapts to new ideas, and possibilities, without losing my ground of logic... That might sound cliché, but it is very true. I also know there are a lot of other people out there like me. Some are more skeptical, some are more gullible. What we really need is for all of humankind to be on the same page, know everything that everybody else knows, keep no world-wide secrets... I think only then will we be able and ready to move forward in our evolution.

Edited January 10, 2006 by Mind_Freak

[theSOURCE]

Simply put, UFOs do exist. When all the misidentifications, hoaxes and the claims of nutters are removed, there remains a respectable amount of sightings that are true unknowns.

Unfortunately, the biggest obstacle to determining what they really are is the multitude of people who blindly believe they are vehicles piloted by aliens without giving any thought as to how improbable that idea is. Many offer no logical explanation for their belief, and often counter to questions with "I just know." It's this type of childish and irrational attitude that's "poisoning the well" (seriously, what respectable scientist wants to be associated with a group that sounds so freaking loony?)

Also, it's become an annoying trend lately for believers to accuse skeptics of not having an imagination. While it does plays an important role in the advancement of understanding, imagination must be applied to knowledge for it to useful, otherwise it's a wasted daydream. It's beyond me why so many believers criticize our current understanding physics. I've read a lot of post where people say such and such is working on zero point energy, etc., etc., etc., as if the humankind was in some race to catch up with the "aliens."

I wish people would stop believing in greys, reptilians, cockroachians, or whatever, and look at the UFO phenomenon as a serious subject. The answer to FTL travel just might be found in UFOs, not because they're space craft piloted by aliens with a taste for cattle anuses, but because they may be an undiscovered naturally occurring phenomena.

If and when aliens do land on earth, everyone will know about it. The notion that the government(s) is hiding proof of alien visitation is nothing but a leftover from cold war paranoia. And I'm not even going to touch on the subject of UFO/alien cults.

[leftovers]

Simply put, UFOs do exist. When all the misidentifications, hoaxes and the claims of nutters are removed, there remains a respectable amount of sightings that are true unknowns.

Unfortunately, the biggest obstacle to determining what they really are is the multitude of people who blindly believe they are vehicles piloted by aliens without giving any thought as to how improbable that idea is. Many offer no logical explanation for their belief, and often counter to questions with "I just know." It's this type of childish and irrational attitude that's "poisoning the well" (seriously, what respectable scientist wants to be associated with a group that sounds so freaking loony?)

Also, it's become an annoying trend lately for believers to accuse skeptics of not having an imagination. While it does plays an important role in the advancement of understanding, imagination must be applied to knowledge for it to useful, otherwise it's a wasted daydream. It's beyond me why so many believers criticize our current understanding physics. I've read a lot of post where people say such and such is working on zero point energy, etc., etc., etc., as if the humankind was in some race to catch up with the "aliens."

I wish people would stop believing in greys, reptilians, cockroachians, or whatever, and look at the UFO phenomenon as a serious subject. The answer to FTL travel just might be found in UFOs, not because they're space craft piloted by aliens with a taste for cattle anuses, but because they may be an undiscovered naturally occurring phenomena.

If and when aliens do land on earth, everyone will know about it. The notion that the government(s) is hiding proof of alien visitation is nothing but a leftover from cold war paranoia. And I'm not even going to touch on the subject of UFO/alien cults.

so you do beleive ufos exist? Edited January 10, 2006 by leftovers

[theSOURCE]

Yes, leftovers, that's what I just posted.