11638 replies to this topic

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 25 January 2012 - 08:08 AM, said:

Imagine someone would find something that would confirm the OLB...

That's not supposed to happen!!! It would cause a collapse of our dominant culture, a collective identity-crisis.

No, he/she would simply be accused of having created the find him/herself and ridiculed.

'Official' scientists would 'prove' that it is not ancient at all.

LOL

Man, that is bull: you can not just start digging at an archeological site when you're an amateur.

That is the same almost everywhere.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 25 January 2012 - 12:29 PM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 25 January 2012 - 01:18 AM, said:

Evening might be a bit poor but I could see 'above' being more the word, since Hyperborea was termed in relation to it being beyond, or above also.

The name of Europa is of uncertain etymology.[23] One theory suggests that it is derived from the Greek εὐρύς (eurus), meaning "wide, broad"[24] and ὤψ/ὠπ-/ὀπτ- (ōps/ōp-/opt-), meaning "eye, face, countenance",[25] hence Eurṓpē, "wide-gazing", "broad of aspect" (compare with glaukōpis (γλαυκῶπις 'grey-eyed') Athena or boōpis (βοὠπις 'ox-eyed') Hera). Broad has been an epithet of Earth itself in the reconstructed Proto-Indo-European religion.[26] Another theory suggests that it is based on a Semitic word such as the Akkadian erebu meaning "to go down, set" (cf. Occident),[27] cognate to Phoenician 'ereb "evening; west" and Arabic Maghreb, Hebrew ma'ariv (see also Erebus, PIE *h1regʷos, "darkness"). However, M. L. West states that "phonologically, the match between Europa's name and any form of the Semitic word is very poor".

Terps are usually built 'above' the ground too.

PS: Rather than exactly above - the word is 'over' = above.

Now you go ask M.L. West about your etymology:


" 'tEurp sounds like the word Europe to me.

Europe may have been so named because it was a land of terp buildings, which is a Frisian word for 'village' basically. The land of villages/terps.

I'm quite serious."

The -t- in 'terp' is not an article.

from PIE *treb- "dwelling"
http://www.etymonlin...searchmode=none

http://www.etymologi.../trefwoord/terp
http://www.etymologi.../trefwoord/dorp

It's nothing but an ancient word for small settlement; we still have the Dutch word "dorp", a town or village.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 25 January 2012 - 08:01 AM, said:

I don't see that. Please explain.

Both words, "hel" and "licht" are used in the OLB:

Thrvch tha stjurar Nyhellênja tonômath. This tonôma was god kêren, hwand tha rêd, thêr hju lênade, was ny aend hel bvppa alle ôtherum.

called by the sailors Nyhellenia. This name was well chosen, for her counsels were new and clear above all others.

----

Thach hwat bêrde, an Êgiptalanda thêr wêre en overprester, hel fon âgnum, klâr fon bryn aend licht fon gâst, sin nâm wêre Sêkrops, hy kêm vmb rêd to jêvane.

Then what happened, an Egyptian high priest, bright of eye, clear of brain, and enlightened of mind, whose name was Cecrops, came to give them advice.


And this was the original quote:


Fon thisse kêning is hyr en skryver aefterbilêwen fon rên Fryas blod, baern to thêre nêie have fon Athênia aend hwat hyr folgath het er vs fon ovir Athênia skrêven, thêrut mêi maen bisluta ho wêr thja Moder Hel-licht sproken heth, thâ hja sêide thaet Fryas sêda to Athênia nên stand holde ne kvste.

Van deze koning is hier een schrijver achter(ge)bleven van rein Fryas blood, (ge)boren in de nieuwe haven van Athenia en wat hier volgt heeft'r ons over Athenia geschreven, daaruit mag men besluiten hoe waar de Moeder Hel-licht gesproken heeft, daar zij zeide dat Fryas zeden tot Athenia niet stand houden aan de kusten.

There was left behind by this king a writer of pure Frya’s blood, born in the new harbour of Athens, who wrote for us what follows about Athens, from which may be seen how truly the mother Hel-licht spoke when she said that the customs of Frya could never take firm hold in Athens.


http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/

It's not about a Mother Hel-licht who had spoken, it's about a Mother who had spoken hel-licht, or who had spoken clear and light/enlightened.

Clear/bright = (Dutch) helder
Enlightened = (Dutch) verlicht.


+++++++

EDIT:

Hellicht is a real word, btw:

hellicht: opbrengst van de jaarlijkse pacht >> Eng: proceeds of the annual rent

http://home.planet.n...rdenboek/h.html
http://www.hellicht....schiedenis.html

But I don't think it has anything to do with the OLB "hel-licht".

However, it is still used in the meaning of 'bright light":

http://www.artrevisi...enaar/hel_licht

.

Edited by Abramelin, 25 January 2012 - 01:37 PM.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 25 January 2012 - 12:33 PM, said:

Now you go ask M.L. West about your etymology:


" 'tEurp sounds like the word Europe to me.

Europe may have been so named because it was a land of terp buildings, which is a Frisian word for 'village' basically. The land of villages/terps.

I'm quite serious."

The -t- in 'terp' is not an article.

from PIE *treb- "dwelling"
http://www.etymonlin...searchmode=none

http://www.etymologi.../trefwoord/terp
http://www.etymologi.../trefwoord/dorp

It's nothing but an ancient word for small settlement; we still have the Dutch word "dorp", a town or village.

I also said I agreed above/over was a better choice, but would not yet rule out my own suggestion since the correct etymology is unknown.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 25 January 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:

Man, that is bull: you can not just start digging at an archeological site when you're an amateur.

That is the same almost everywhere.

.

Yeah, I suppose that's true, these days.

[The Puzzler]

Also, about the c. 2200BC date for this catastrophic earth changes. So concerned about finding a comet I forgot the obvious, what about huge earthquakes?

Not surprisingly, many contributors to ARCHAEOSEISMOLOGY present
new data for widespread earthquake damage in ancient Greece at the
end of Late Helladic II (circa 2200 BC) and Late Helladic IIIB
(circa 1200 BC).
http://abob.libs.uga...c/cc050797.html

It does mention at the time Atland sank their was also destruction in the Mediterranean.
Egypt also records an earthquake at c. 2200BC, their first known one. Apparently in was in the delta area of Zagazig.
Based on various published catalogs, we have constructed a new comprehensive catalog of earthquakes recorded in the vicinity of Egypt from 2200 B.C. to 2004.
http://srl.geoscienc.../76/2/149.short

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 25 January 2012 - 12:52 PM, said:

Both words, "hel" and "licht" are used in the OLB:

Thrvch tha stjurar Nyhellênja tonômath. This tonôma was god kêren, hwand tha rêd, thêr hju lênade, was ny aend hel bvppa alle ôtherum.

called by the sailors Nyhellenia. This name was well chosen, for her counsels were new and clear above all others.

----

Thach hwat bêrde, an Êgiptalanda thêr wêre en overprester, hel fon âgnum, klâr fon bryn aend licht fon gâst, sin nâm wêre Sêkrops, hy kêm vmb rêd to jêvane.

Then what happened, an Egyptian high priest, bright of eye, clear of brain, and enlightened of mind, whose name was Cecrops, came to give them advice.


And this was the original quote:


Fon thisse kêning is hyr en skryver aefterbilêwen fon rên Fryas blod, baern to thêre nêie have fon Athênia aend hwat hyr folgath het er vs fon ovir Athênia skrêven, thêrut mêi maen bisluta ho wêr thja Moder Hel-licht sproken heth, thâ hja sêide thaet Fryas sêda to Athênia nên stand holde ne kvste.

Van deze koning is hier een schrijver achter(ge)bleven van rein Fryas blood, (ge)boren in de nieuwe haven van Athenia en wat hier volgt heeft'r ons over Athenia geschreven, daaruit mag men besluiten hoe waar de Moeder Hel-licht gesproken heeft, daar zij zeide dat Fryas zeden tot Athenia niet stand houden aan de kusten.

There was left behind by this king a writer of pure Frya’s blood, born in the new harbour of Athens, who wrote for us what follows about Athens, from which may be seen how truly the mother Hel-licht spoke when she said that the customs of Frya could never take firm hold in Athens.


http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/

It's not about a Mother Hel-licht who had spoken, it's about a Mother who had spoken hel-licht, or who had spoken clear and light/enlightened.

Clear/bright = (Dutch) helder
Enlightened = (Dutch) verlicht.


+++++++

EDIT:

Hellicht is a real word, btw:

hellicht: opbrengst van de jaarlijkse pacht >> Eng: proceeds of the annual rent

http://home.planet.n...rdenboek/h.html
http://www.hellicht....schiedenis.html

But I don't think it has anything to do with the OLB "hel-licht".

However, it is still used in the meaning of 'bright light":

http://www.artrevisi...enaar/hel_licht

.

I haven't read the original text at this part and am not sure why the original transliteration you have provided has a capital H for Hel-licht but if this letter IS a capital it would be Mother Helicht as in a name but if the H is not a capital then it could be what you say. Since the original OLB text is all capitals I couldn't be sure why it has been interpreted as a capital H.

Edited by The Puzzler, 25 January 2012 - 02:23 PM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 25 January 2012 - 02:21 PM, said:

I haven't read the original text at this part and am not sure why the original transliteration you have provided has a capital H for Hel-licht but if this letter IS a capital it would be Mother Helicht as in a name but if the H is not a capital then it could be what you say. Since the original OLB text is all capitals I couldn't be sure why it has been interpreted as a capital H.

I think it's simply a mistranslation by Ottema and then by everyone else.

It makes no sense to read it as Mother Hel-licht.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 25 January 2012 - 02:34 PM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 25 January 2012 - 02:03 PM, said:

I also said I agreed above/over was a better choice, but would not yet rule out my own suggestion since the correct etymology is unknown.

Where did the name Europe come from?

Nick Metcalfe, New Mills, UK

Europa - a lover of Zeus from Greek mythology. To protect her from his jealous wife, Zeus appeared as a white bull who swam to safety across the ocean with Europa on his back.

R Watkin, Oxford

From the Phoenician word EROB, meaning where the sun set (west of Phoenicia).

Roy Nicol, Toronto Canada

From fecund EUROPA: a Phoenician princess carried off by Zeus in the form of a white bull and by him mother of Minos, Rhadamanthus, and Sarpedon.

Trevor, Newcastle UK

EUROPA - Overcome by the Phoenician woman's beauty, but sensing her shy nature, Zeus changed himself into a white bull. Europa was attracted to this majestic animal, and was soon riding on the bull. At that point, Zeus started running over the waves, leaving Europa's native Sidon and friends behind. The ride was smooth, as the sea nymphs created a waveless path for the travellers. The couple ended up on Crete, where Europa bore Zeus three sons: Minos, Rhadamanthus, and Sarpedon. Minos became king of Crete; Rhadamanthus a judge in the underworld.

Odysseus Mikalis, Rockville USA

(From "The New First Aid in English" ISBN 0 7169 4409 x): "Some say it was named Eref by the Phoenicians, meaning 'the land of the setting sun' ... Others say it was named after Europus, a town in Macedonia"

Mike Whittaker, Stapleton UK

Europa, Europe comes from the Phoenician word EROB, meaning where the sun set (west of Phoenicia,west of Bosphorus, Sea of Marmora). Erebo: I go under. Ereba: The land where I go under. Acu (pronounciatian asu) the land where I (the sun) are coming up: Ereb, ereba= europa Asu = Asie, Asia. Morningland-Eveningland, seen by the Phoeniciers That's why Bosphorus always has been the geographical border between Europe and Asia. Anatolie /= Asia-minor,which forms 97% of todays Turkey, comes from greeche language and means : east, east of what ? East of European Greece!

Hans Thijssens, Amsterdam Netherlands

perhaps from the Greek word Euros meaning 'broad'.

N S, London, England
It`s greek. Like everything else that is important!

Panos Protos, Malmö, Sweden

Europa is a rendering of the Colkhian word for affection, love(of the Motherland of the Colkh/Iberian population that cradled their civilization from Western Iberia(at the Atlantic Ocean) to the Zagros Range in the East(Zagr means the mountain range in Colkhiberian i.e. Kartuli.

Natela Popkhadze, Tbilisi Georgia/Sakartvelo

They ran out of all the cool Greek myth names.

Hannah, Huntington Beach England

From a pré-Greek goddess.After her, the region in Thracia, river, towns and about 20 mortal and immortal Europa's mentioned in the Greek Mythos, have been named.In the 5th c. BC it was suggested that the continent's name came from a seanimf, daughter of Oceanus, or from Zeus' partner Europe, who had been given later a Phoenician descent together with a new family. www.europesname.com

Peter Gommers, Antwerp Belgium

They changed their name to 'Europe' from 'Force' in 1982. Gotta love that Swedish big haired pomp rock!!

Max, Truro UK

There is a vedic word, Hariupia. Could that be a forerunner of the word,Europa? It is claimed that Harappa is a name derived from Hariupia which Sanskritic scholar Umesh Chandra Vidyaratna did not indicate.

Samir, kolkata india

http://www.guardian....,-10344,00.html

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 25 January 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

I think it's simply a mistranslation by Ottema and then by everyone else.

It makes no sense to read it as Mother Hel-licht.

.

'Why?
Mother bright-light (Hel-licht) had spoken - was that Nyhellenia that said that?  - below?( I haven't opened the book link yet.)

"customs of Frya could never take firm hold in Athens."

They may mean Mother Hel-licht was Nyhellenia...?

[The Puzzler]

broad eyes would be the Greek rendering of Europa. eurus-ops. The Earth apparently was referred to as broad in general.

EDIT: The name of Europa is of uncertain etymology.[23] One theory suggests that it is derived from the Greek εὐρύς (eurus), meaning "wide, broad"[24] and ὤψ/ὠπ-/ὀπτ- (ōps/ōp-/opt-), meaning "eye, face, countenance",[25] hence Eurṓpē, "wide-gazing", "broad of aspect" (compare with glaukōpis (γλαυκῶπις 'grey-eyed') Athena or boōpis (βοὠπις 'ox-eyed') Hera). Broad has been an epithet of Earth itself in the reconstructed Proto-Indo-European religion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe

Edited by The Puzzler, 25 January 2012 - 02:43 PM.

[The Puzzler]

This pictures makes me think of 'broad' - the way her arms are and the broad of the bull's back looks extra broad.



The Earth Mother, broad, an Earth Mother culture connected with bulls may have entered Crete at this time.

Europe/Europa may have become a term for Europe because it was a broad land even.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 25 January 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:

'Why?
Mother bright-light (Hel-licht) had spoken - was that Nyhellenia that said that?  - below?( I haven't opened the book link yet.)

"customs of Frya could never take firm hold in Athens."

They may mean Mother Hel-licht was Nyhellenia...?

This is the complete episode:

Sandbach's translation:


IN THE YEAR ONE THOUSAND AND FIVE AFTER ATLAND WAS SUBMERGED, THIS WAS INSCRIBED ON THE EASTERN WALL OF FRYASBURGT.

After twelve years had elapsed without our seeing any Italians in Almanland, there came three ships, finer than any that we possessed or had ever seen.

On the largest of them was a king of the Jonischen Islands whose name was Ulysses, the fame of whose wisdom was great. To him a priestess had prophesied that he should become the king of all Italy provided he could obtain a lamp that had been lighted at the lamp in Tex-land. For this purpose he had brought great treasures with him, above all, jewels for women more beautiful than had ever been seen before. They were from Troy, a town that the Greeks had taken. All these treasures he offered to the mother, but the mother would have nothing to do with them. At last, when he found that there was nothing to be got from her, he went to Walhallagara (Walcheren). There there was established a Burgtmaagd whose name was Kaat, but who was commonly called Kalip, because her lower lip stuck out like a mast-head. Here he tarried for years, to the scandal of all that knew it. According to the report of the maidens, he obtained a lamp from her; but it did him no good, because when he got to sea his ship was lost, and he was taken up naked and destitute by another ship. There was left behind by this king a writer of pure Frya’s blood, born in the new harbour of Athens, who wrote for us what follows about Athens, from which may be seen how truly the mother Hel-licht spoke when she said that the customs of Frya could never take firm hold in Athens.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bd

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 25 January 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

This pictures makes me think of 'broad' - the way her arms are and the broad of the bull's back looks extra broad.



The Earth Mother, broad, an Earth Mother culture connected with bulls may have entered Crete at this time.

Europe/Europa may have become a term for Europe because it was a broad land even.

Well, we will never be sure where the name came from, but this explanation makes a lot of sense (see former post):


Europa, Europe comes from the Phoenician word EROB, meaning where the sun set (west of Phoenicia,west of Bosphorus, Sea of Marmora). Erebo: I go under. Ereba: The land where I go under. Acu (pronounciatian asu) the land where I (the sun) are coming up: Ereb, ereba= europa Asu = Asie, Asia. Morningland-Eveningland, seen by the Phoeniciers That's why Bosphorus always has been the geographical border between Europe and Asia. Anatolie /= Asia-minor,which forms 97% of todays Turkey, comes from greeche language and means : east, east of what ? East of European Greece!

Hans Thijssens, Amsterdam Netherlands



Anatolia (from Greek Ἀνατολή Anatolē — "east" or "(sun)rise"; also Asia Minor, from Greek: Μικρὰ Ἀσία Mikrá Asía "small Asia"; in modern Turkish: Anadolu) is a geographic and historical term denoting the westernmost protrusion of Asia, comprising the majority of the Republic of Turkey.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolia

.

Edited by Abramelin, 25 January 2012 - 03:02 PM.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 25 January 2012 - 02:56 PM, said:

This is the complete episode:

Sandbach's translation:


IN THE YEAR ONE THOUSAND AND FIVE AFTER ATLAND WAS SUBMERGED, THIS WAS INSCRIBED ON THE EASTERN WALL OF FRYASBURGT.

After twelve years had elapsed without our seeing any Italians in Almanland, there came three ships, finer than any that we possessed or had ever seen.

On the largest of them was a king of the Jonischen Islands whose name was Ulysses, the fame of whose wisdom was great. To him a priestess had prophesied that he should become the king of all Italy provided he could obtain a lamp that had been lighted at the lamp in Tex-land. For this purpose he had brought great treasures with him, above all, jewels for women more beautiful than had ever been seen before. They were from Troy, a town that the Greeks had taken. All these treasures he offered to the mother, but the mother would have nothing to do with them. At last, when he found that there was nothing to be got from her, he went to Walhallagara (Walcheren). There there was established a Burgtmaagd whose name was Kaat, but who was commonly called Kalip, because her lower lip stuck out like a mast-head. Here he tarried for years, to the scandal of all that knew it. According to the report of the maidens, he obtained a lamp from her; but it did him no good, because when he got to sea his ship was lost, and he was taken up naked and destitute by another ship. There was left behind by this king a writer of pure Frya’s blood, born in the new harbour of Athens, who wrote for us what follows about Athens, from which may be seen how truly the mother Hel-licht spoke when she said that the customs of Frya could never take firm hold in Athens.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bd

No, this part:

This is the history of Jon and of Min-erva.

When they had finished their story they asked respectfully for iron weapons; for, said they, our foes are powerful, but if we have good arms we can withstand them. When this had been agreed to, the people asked if Frya's customs would flourish in Athens and in other parts of Greece (Krekalanden). The mother answered, If the distant Greeks belong to the direct descent of Frya, then they will flourish; but if they do not descend from Frya, then there will be a long contention about it, because the carrier must make five thousand revolutions of his Juul before Finda's people will be ripe for liberty.

This is Nyhellenia/Minerva who said that - so Mother Hel-licht would be her as well, Nyhellenia by this time may have become Mother Hel-licht - clear/light (of wisdom).

Edited by The Puzzler, 25 January 2012 - 03:25 PM.