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WTC 911 EyeWitness~Hoboken


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#1636    DONTEATUS

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 07:37 PM

Maybe we need to make a Thread that has Fluffy Clouds,and Rainbows with really soft  L.Z`s for these people Skyeagle this way they will not get too hurt when the truth hits them in the face !
On your Six ! :tu:

This is a Work in Progress!

#1637    flyingswan

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 10:50 AM

View PostQ24, on 08 May 2013 - 06:17 PM, said:

First fail.  I said, "specific to a fire based collapse", e.g. evidence which exclusively supports a fire based collapse.  Simply the presence of fire in the building does not 1) indicate a structure will necessarily collapse, or 2) preclude the collapse through demolition.  So of course it does not falsify the demolition based collapse I'm surprised that needs explaining.  
If you wanted exclusive, you should have asked for exclusive.  My point is that your unfalsifiable approach spins all evidence into your covert demolition, so in your eyes there cannot be any evidence that excludes your hypothesis.  However, in my eyes, the points I mentioned show that the collapse has features which are expected of a collapse due to impact/fire and make any form of demolition extremely implausible.

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Next fail.  The NIST impact and fire computer modelling shows a greater range where the towers will not collapse.  You openly admit it you didn't have much choice after I pinned you to that fact after pages of your denials.  Anyhow, this finding is backed by the original WTC engineers and all known precedent.  How in the world do you present it as exclusive evidence for the official theory?  That showpiece official story evidence is actually if anything more in favour of demolition.  It gets worse when we realise that NIST's collapse range was stretched right to the periphery of a measurement error of their choosing and also interjected with further tweaks specifically to induce collapse initiation in the model.  It becomes altogether untenable when we know the result of that imparted more damage to the simulated models than was ever done to the towers in reality.  That isn't science, it's fitting the 'right' answer on paper.
We've been through this all before.  You have no appreciation of the probabilities involved.  NIST got a collapse within measurement error, and this means that the collapse probability was considerable.  You also have no appreciation of normal engineering techniques, which you mistakenly characterise as suspicious.

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Third fail.  There is nothing implausible about the demolition setup, neither are thermite or explosive based demolitions unknown.  If you understood the possibilities presented for the setup, briefly researched and accepted historical precedent for tertiary explosives and thermite, then you wouldn't need to be putting forward such weak arguments.
You may think my arguments weak, but then again I think your proposed demolition process is completely at odds with reality.  We are entitled to our opinions.

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Of course, before you say it, the first point does not include a simple bulge or bowing which could be brought on by any manner of unbalancing a structure.  Again, if it can be caused by demolition then it's no good.  The point refers specifically to slow and large deformations as clearly caused by fire prior to the Windsor building partial collapse.
There is your unfalsifiable hypothesis working as expected.  A large deformation would discredit your theory, so obviously you don't consider a wall 1.4 metres out of line to be a large deformation.  I suggest you consult your nearest structural engineer on this.  Similarly, you wave away the obviously asymmetric collapse initiations of all three buildings.  I allow that no steel was identified with exposure to temperatures above 600 deg C, but then this is even more a drawback to your thermite theory which would have produced much higher temperatures.

Incidentally, the fire collapse theory is not unfalsifiable.  Discovering the remains of your proposed massive thermite devices would do the job.  After a normal demolition, the place is littered with evidence, but there are no reports of such from Ground Zero.

Edited by flyingswan, 12 May 2013 - 10:59 AM.

"Man prefers to believe what he prefers to be true" - Francis Bacon (1561-1626)
In which case it is fortunate that:
"Science is the best defense against believing what we want to" - Ian Stewart (1945- )

#1638    DONTEATUS

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 05:09 PM

all factual points flyingswan,These C.T`s are a hearty Lot ! They will go on and On ! Until !

This is a Work in Progress!

#1639    skyeagle409

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 01:13 AM

View PostDONTEATUS, on 12 May 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

all factual points flyingswan,These C.T`s are a hearty Lot ! They will go on and On ! Until !

Yes indeed. At some point in time, perhaps they will come around to reality.

KEEP YOUR MACH UP AND CHECK SIX

#1640    Stundie

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 11:33 PM

View PostDONTEATUS, on 12 May 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

all factual points flyingswan,These C.T`s are a hearty Lot ! They will go on and On ! Until !
And so does the cheer leading....lol

There is no such thing as magic, just magicians and fools.

#1641    skyeagle409

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 12:14 AM

View PostDONTEATUS, on 12 May 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

all factual points flyingswan,These C.T`s are a hearty Lot ! They will go on and On ! Until !

Like that rabbit you see in TV commercials.

KEEP YOUR MACH UP AND CHECK SIX

#1642    DONTEATUS

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 01:19 AM

THe Key word there is Leading, Cheer`s !

This is a Work in Progress!

#1643    Stundie

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 07:43 AM

View PostDONTEATUS, on 14 May 2013 - 01:19 AM, said:

THe Key word there is Leading, Cheer`s !
The key word is "Cheer"...Leading is the easiest part. lol

There is no such thing as magic, just magicians and fools.

#1644    skyeagle409

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 07:51 AM

View PostDONTEATUS, on 11 May 2013 - 07:37 PM, said:

Maybe we need to make a Thread that has Fluffy Clouds,and Rainbows with really soft  L.Z`s for these people Skyeagle this way they will not get too hurt when the truth hits them in the face !
On your Six ! :tu:

I wonder if they can handle the truth. They have said that explosives were used in the WTC buildings and yet, they have presented no such evidence to backup that claim; no sound of bomb explosions, no bomb explosions seen on video, nor recorded on seismic monitors nor even evidence of explosives found at ground zero. In fact, there was no evidence of structural pre-weakening on the steel structures..

KEEP YOUR MACH UP AND CHECK SIX

#1645    DONTEATUS

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 01:39 AM

I like the Fake Aircraft,and Drones !

This is a Work in Progress!

#1646    turbonium

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 06:04 AM

View Postskyeagle409, on 11 May 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

Well, let's take a look.





The question was what happened to all of the most critical steel, at the impact/fire zones.

You just post a couple of clips from the Fresh Kills site? Sheesh..

Like Babe Ruth said, almost all of the most critical steel - in the impact/fire zones, to remind you - was quickly removed and shipped overseas.

NIST had a total of 236 pieces of steel inventoried from WTC 1 and 2. They had NO steel available from WTC 7, which is even more ridiculous.

Here's their report ..

http://www.nist.gov/...m?pub_id=101430

Go to Chapter 4 - Structural Steel Elements of Special Importance

Figure 4-1 indicates the two core column sections recovered from WTC 1. Figure 4-2 shows the two core column pieces recovered from WTC 2.

They had a grand total of 4 core column pieces recovered for analysis from the most critical areas!! These pieces measured about 1-2 floors in length. These sections were from above the impact/fire zones, not within them.

Each tower had 47 core columns. The impact/fire zone was at least 6 floors in each tower, multiply by 47 (core columns), which makes 282 core column sections (each1 floor in length), or 141 sections (each 2 floors in length).

4 pieces were recovered from the most important areas of the towers, this is just criminal!! Cripes. their core samples never reached temperatures high enough to even weaken the steel!!


You don't see any problem with all of this, of course...


#1647    skyeagle409

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 08:16 AM

View Postturbonium, on 18 May 2013 - 06:04 AM, said:

The question was what happened to all of the most critical steel, at the impact/fire zones.

You just post a couple of clips from the Fresh Kills site? Sheesh..

That is more than enough.

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Like Babe Ruth said, almost all of the most critical steel - in the impact/fire zones, to remind you - was quickly removed and shipped overseas.

What makes you think that a quick look wasn't conducted before the steel was shipped off?

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NIST had a total of 236 pieces of steel inventoried from WTC 1 and 2. They had NO steel available from WTC 7, which is even more ridiculous.

The rubble of WTC7 was right there where WTC7 collapsed. The rubble of WTC7 didn't just get up and walk away.

Quote

Here's their report ..

http://www.nist.gov/...m?pub_id=101430

Go to Chapter 4 - Structural Steel Elements of Special Importance

Figure 4-1 indicates the two core column sections recovered from WTC 1. Figure 4-2 shows the two core column pieces recovered from WTC 2.

They had a grand total of 4 core column pieces recovered for analysis from the most critical areas!! These pieces measured about 1-2 floors in length. These sections were from above the impact/fire zones, not within them.

Each tower had 47 core columns. The impact/fire zone was at least 6 floors in each tower, multiply by 47 (core columns), which makes 282 core column sections (each1 floor in length), or 141 sections (each 2 floors in length).

4 pieces were recovered from the most important areas of the towers, this is just criminal!! Cripes. their core samples never reached temperatures high enough to even weaken the steel!!

You don't see any problem with all of this, of course...

Nope! Since you are not a regular here, let me show you what you have been missing..

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Why did NIST not Consider a “Controlled Demolition

Why did NIST not consider a “controlled demolition” hypothesis with matching computer modeling and explanation as it did for the “pancake theory” hypothesis? A key critique of NIST’s work lies in the complete lack of analysis supporting a “progressive collapse” after the point of collapse initiation and the lack of consideration given to a controlled demolition hypothesis.
NIST conducted an extremely thorough three-year investigation into what caused the WTC towers to collapse, as explained in NIST’s dedicated Web site, http://wtc.nist.gov. This included consideration of a number of hypotheses for the collapses of the towers.

Some 200 technical experts—including about 85 career NIST experts and 125 leading experts from the private sector and academia—reviewed tens of thousands of documents, interviewed more than 1,000 people, reviewed 7,000 segments of video footage and 7,000 photographs, analyzed 236 pieces of steel from the wreckage, performed laboratory tests and sophisticated computer simulations of the sequence of events that occurred from the moment the aircraft struck the towers until they began to collapse.

Based on this comprehensive investigation, NIST concluded that the WTC towers collapsed because: (1) the impact of the planes severed and damaged support columns, dislodged fireproofing insulation coating the steel floor trusses and steel columns, and widely dispersed jet fuel over multiple floors; and (2) the subsequent unusually large jet-fuel ignited multi-floor fires (which reached temperatures as high as 1,000 degrees Celsius) significantly weakened the floors and columns with dislodged fireproofing to the point where floors sagged and pulled inward on the perimeter columns. This led to the inward bowing of the perimeter columns and failure of the south face of WTC 1 and the east face of WTC 2, initiating the collapse of each of the towers.

Both photographic and video evidence—as well as accounts from the New York Police Department aviation unit during a half-hour period prior to collapse—support this sequence for each tower.

http://www.webcitation.org/5pvOUTcar


Latest Findings From NIST World Trade Center Investigation Released

* Each aircraft severed perimeter columns, damaged interior core columns and knocked off fireproofing from steel as the planes penetrated the buildings. The weight carried by the severed columns was distributed to other columns. * Subsequently, fires began that were initiated by the aircraft’s jet fuel but were fed for the most part by the building contents and the air supply resulting from breached walls and fire-induced window breakage. * These fires, in combination with the dislodged fireproofing, were responsible for a chain of events in which the building core weakened and began losing its ability to carry loads. * The floors weakened and sagged from the fires, pulling inward on the perimeter columns.

* Floor sagging and exposure to high temperatures caused the perimeter columns to bow inward and buckle—a process that spread across the faces of the buildings. * Collapse then ensued.

http://www.scienceda...50411122017.htm


World Trade Center 7 Report Puts 9/11 Conspiracy Theory to Rest

Conspiracy theorists have long claimed that explosives downed World Trade Center 7, north of the Twin Towers. The long-awaited report from the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) conclusively rebuts those claims. Fire alone brought down the building, the report concludes, pointing to thermal expansion of key structural members as the culprit. The report also raises concerns that other large buildings might be more vulnerable to fire-induced structural failure than previously thought.

Read more: World Trade Center 7 Report Puts 9/11 Conspiracy Theory to Rest - Popular Mechanics



WTC Pre-Collapse Bowing Debunks 9/11 "Controlled Demolition" Theory
Indications of the Imminent Collapse of the World Trade Center Buildings Disprove Explosives Theory

"The NYPD aviation unit reported critical information about the impending collapse of the buildings." They could see that the exterior steel beams of the buildings were bowing. You can see the inward bowing of the steel columns in pictures of both WTC 2, (the first building to collapse) and WTC 1 (the second building to collapse.)

Buckling Steel.

Dr. Shyam Sunder, lead investigator for NIST's building and fire safety investigation into the WTC disaster, said, "While the buildings were able to withstand the initial impact of the aircraft, the resulting fires that spread through the towers weakened support columns and floors that had fireproofing dislodged by the impacts. This eventually led to collapse as the perimeter columns were pulled inward by the sagging floors and buckled." "The reason the towers collapsed is because the fireproofing was dislodged," according to Sunder.

If the fireproofing had remained in place, Sunder said, the fires would have burned out and moved on without weakening key elements to the point of structural collapse." - Latest Findings From NIST World Trade Center Investigation Released

"According to Shyam Sunder, the concave bowing of the steel was seen on the sides of the towersopposite where the planes hit them. At 10:06 a.m. that morning, an officer in a police helicopter reported that ``it's not going to take long before the north tower comes down.'' This was 20 minutes before it collapsed. In another radio transmission at 10:21 a.m., the officer said he saw buckling in the north tower's southern face, Shyam Sunder said."

"Engineers believe the bowing of the exterior steel beams near the flame-engulfed floors was the critical "triggering point" because that's the direction each tower tiltedas it came crashing down."
"The report includes photographs taken from police helicopters showing the bending columns."

Key findings include:

Floor sagging and exposure to high temperatures caused the perimeter columns to bow inward and buckle—a process that spread across the faces of the buildings.
Even though the jet fuel on the planes burned off in the first few minutes after impact, there was enough office furniture to sustain intense fires for at least an hour.
The original builders of the twin towers and those who later renovated the structures did not have a clear technical standard for deciding on how much insulation to use around the structural beams, many of which gave way in the intense heat.

Read more here: Police, Firemen and Civilians Saw Warning Signs of Collapse of the Twin Towers on September 11th 2001

I endured many months of bomb explosions in war and I didn't see a shred of evidence in the WTC videos of bomb explosions and I didn't see any secondaries as the aircraft struck the WTC towers, which would have been an indication of planted explosives, but there were no secondaries anywhere in those videos and I didn't hear bomb explosions from close-up videos either as WTC1, WTC2, and WTC7 collapsed, which brings up the question:  who duped 911 truthers into thinking that explosives were used to bring down the WTC buildings in the first place  when there was no evidence of explosives to begin with?

Simply hearing what sound like explosions is not real evidence when there are objects that produce similar sounds that have nothing to do with explosives. For an example, New York City is known for its manhole cover and electrical explosions and failing structural rivets produce similar sounds,  and yes, even falling elevators produce sounds similar to explosions. So the point is, simply hearing what sounded like explosions is not evidence that explosives were used.

KEEP YOUR MACH UP AND CHECK SIX

#1648    DONTEATUS

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Posted 18 May 2013 - 06:38 PM

Waist of time Sky ! Remember theres no place like Home ! No Place like Home. The Skeptics and C/T`s  love to real you in ! Time to cut them Loose ! THat Dog dont hunt any more !
We need to move on to Getting or Space program back on track ! Not the Stupidity of this,Afterall ITs all in the way one Looks at things,9/11 was just as it was shown Live on the T.V that Day ! You really have to be a dense person not to see that ! Two Large Aircraft went in,Two Great Towers came down ! Nuff Said ! :tu:
On your Six mate !

This is a Work in Progress!

#1649    turbonium

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 07:53 AM

View Postskyeagle409, on 18 May 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:

That is more than enough.

More than enough for what? To prove their so-called 'investigation' was a complete farce?!!

To claim that it was more than enough steel to conduct a proper, thorough investigation  is simply absurd.


View Postskyeagle409, on 18 May 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:

What makes you think that a quick look wasn't conducted before the steel was shipped off?

What makes you think "a quick look" is considered valid scientific analysis?!?!

Wow! I never knew that was part of an investigation!!

Does the NIST report mention anything about "a quick look" at all this steel, or did you just make it up?



View Postskyeagle409, on 18 May 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:

The rubble of WTC7 was right there where WTC7 collapsed. The rubble of WTC7 didn't just get up and walk away.

Yes, it was right there. Then, it was all shipped away to Asia! Did.that help to convince you it was a legitimate investigation? :w00t:  


View Postskyeagle409, on 18 May 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:

Nope! Since you are not a regular here, let me show you what you have been missing..

I've seen it all before, with none of it being relevant to the issue of WTC steel. Steel that was fully understood to be crucial evidence for an investigation, which they deliberately ignored and quickly disposed of, which is a criminal act in itself.   . ...


#1650    skyeagle409

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Posted 19 May 2013 - 05:24 PM

View Postturbonium, on 19 May 2013 - 07:53 AM, said:


More than enough for what? To prove their so-called 'investigation' was a complete farce?!!

The even non-government experts concurred with the investigations. Show us the evidence that prove otherwise.

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To claim that it was more than enough steel to conduct a proper, thorough investigation  is simply absurd.

Wrong again!!



WTC Steel Data Collection

WTC steel data collection efforts were undertaken by the Building Performance Study (BPS) Team and the Structural Engineers Association of New York (SEAoNY) to identify significant steel pieces from WTC 1, 2, 5, and 7 for further study. The methods used to identify and document steel pieces are presented, as well as a spreadsheet that documents the data for steel pieces inspected at various sites from October 2001 through March 2002.

http://911research.w.../WTC_apndxD.htm

KEEP YOUR MACH UP AND CHECK SIX