163 replies to this topic

[Br Cornelius]

shrooma, on 23 February 2013 - 08:07 PM, said:

.
the UK pays €15bn per year to the EU, of which we receive, in one form or another, €9bn back, which means it costs the UK taxpayer €6bn to remain in the EU, and if margaret thatcher hadn't negotgiated the 'british correction' it would cost another €4bn more, money that the NHS and education system could more than do with, so it's not really what you'd call an economic benefit to our economy.
i'm neither pro, nor anti EU, as it doesn't particularly impact the way I live my life to a great degree whether we're in it or not, i'm merely reporting facts.

The British only got their rebate because they refused to allow the regions to draw down the structural funding they were entitled to, they did this to undermine any possibility of an industrial resurgence in the North of England and hence a counter balance to the torie stronghold in the home counties. Remember that if, due to the dire economic state of the country at the time, we had have availed of all of the structural funding we were entitled to (as a disadvantaged region) we would probably have been net beneficiaries.

Of course, your analysis misses the point that direct taxes and costs into and out of the EU doesn't account for the net benefit to the UK economy from integration into the common market - which is far more than €4billion.

The decline of British Industry and the loss of Empire are more than slightly coincident, with India gaining independence as late as 1947 and other countries afterwards. The first application to join the EEC was in 1963 so there had been about 10years of decline before Macmillan panicked and decided to petition for membership.

Cabinet papers show that Harold MacMillan applied to join the EEC because he could see that the British were falling behind in economic growth;

Quote

The Prime Minister, Harold Macmillan, was alarmed at the rapid economic advances made by France and Germany and sought to join the EEC.

http://www.nationala...-late-entry.htm

Edward Heath gave the reason for joining the EEC as;

Quote

He said: "It is going to be a gradual development and obviously things are not going to happen overnight.
"But from the point of view of our everyday lives we will find there is a great cross-fertilisation of knowledge and information, not only in business but in every other sphere.
"And this will enable us to be more efficient and more competitive in gaining more markets not only in Europe but in the rest of the world."

DeGaul, rather wisely as it turns out, realized that the UK was only in it for selfish reasons and vetoed their application;

Quote

General de Gaulle accused Britain of a "deep-seated hostility" towards European construction.
He said London showed a "lack of interest" in the Common Market and would require a "radical transformation" before joining the EEC.
"The present Common Market is incompatible with the economy, as it now stands, of Britain," he said.
He went on to list a number of aspects of Britain's economy, from working practices to agriculture, which he said made Britain incompatible with Europe.

http://news.bbc.co.u...000/4187714.stm

So all this talk of the UK doing just fine outside of the EEC is shown to be utter bull**** when the real situation at the time is looked at. I doubt they would have done any better in the intervening years if they had have remained outside. Rosy Glasses and fogged hindsight is all the Euroskeptic have to offer.


Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 23 February 2013 - 10:06 PM.

[Black Red Devil]

Soccergirl13, on 23 February 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

Dear BlackRed I cannot comment about France but I can certainly tell.you that germans moan a lot as well. Every time there is another billion euro payment to greece or another falling country the people do complain as germany pays more than other eu countries. The only difference is that the government doesnt really represent what the people think and keep pushing the idea of united europe. But that doesnt mean they.are happy about it

Have you got evidence/links showing how unhappy the Germans have become?  The info I have shows differently.  Then again, it's obvious Germans aren't happy about forking out to bail out the Greeks.

[spud the mackem]

BlackRedLittleDevil, on 23 February 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

The EU isn't an Empire and not even close to the way the Romans controlled Europe.  There hasn't been a war involving any of the EU members in 6 decades, which is almost unheard of in European history.
I think it would have been quite unrealistic to expect that all these nations made up of a mixture of different cultures and backgrounds, although mainly of Caucasian origin, would have managed to all come together, in unison, almost overnight, without coming across some difficulties.  Give it time.
As I said, the ones who appear to be willing to give it a chance are,,,everyone except for the British Conservatives.  Even the Germans and French are wiling to give it a go and tag along the smaller nations.  Both have better economies than the British but don't appear to playing the precious part or moaning and groaning at each difficulty by threatening to leave every five seconds.

Hey, just my impression and what I read from an outside perspective.

  Are you sure you know what you're talking about ?..France & Germany are the two richest in the E.U. and the rest are constantly having a moan about having to cut spending,Spain,Italy,Greece, are going down the pan,and they're all blaming Britain for not giving more cash to support their up keep.I am NOT  a Conservative but I and 1000's like me want out,we've had enough of supporting lost causes.Come and live here for a while then you can start criticising.

[Black Red Devil]

spud the mackem, on 23 February 2013 - 11:36 PM, said:

Are you sure you know what you're talking about ?..France & Germany are the two richest in the E.U. and the rest are constantly having a moan about having to cut spending,Spain,Italy,Greece, are going down the pan,and they're all blaming Britain for not giving more cash to support their up keep.I am NOT  a Conservative but I and 1000's like me want out,we've had enough of supporting lost causes.Come and live here for a while then you can start criticising.

LOL, basically your whole rant went around in circles and eventually landed on what I said. more or less.  Of course France, Germany and everyone has a moan about paying more taxes or cutting spending.  That's what we all do.  But show me evidence where the majority of the other populations want to pull out.  I bet there is none because they know the alternatives are far less appealing.

Edited by BlackRedLittleDevil, 24 February 2013 - 03:13 AM.

[Colonel Rhuairidh]

BlackRedLittleDevil, on 24 February 2013 - 03:05 AM, said:

LOL, basically your whole rant went around in circles and eventually landed on what I said. more or less.  Of course France, Germany and everyone has a moan about paying more taxes or cutting spending.  That's what we all do.  But show me evidence where the majority of the other populations want to pull out.  I bet there is none because they know the alternatives are far less appealing.

No, france & Germany wouldn't want to pull out, would they, (or their governments wouldn't, and their Business leaders, which is not necessarily the same as how the general population feel), since the EU is designed to serve the interests of the Big Powerful countries that are at the heart of the European Project. One way in which it does that is by extorting the less wealthy countries. I don't know what Publick opinion in France & Germany may feel about the European Superstate Project, but according to what was said above not even everyone there seems overwhelmingly enthusiastic.

[Black Red Devil]

Lord Vetinari, on 24 February 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

No, france & Germany wouldn't want to pull out, would they, (or their governments wouldn't, and their Business leaders, which is not necessarily the same as how the general population feel), since the EU is designed to serve the interests of the Big Powerful countries that are at the heart of the European Project. One way in which it does that is by extorting the less wealthy countries. I don't know what Publick opinion in France & Germany may feel about the European Superstate Project, but according to what was said above not even everyone there seems overwhelmingly enthusiastic.

Extorting the less wealthy countries??  I'm sure I read somewhere in previous posts that the British were unhappy about having to tag along the poorer EU members.  Now you're saying they're being extorted. Maybe all the euroskeptics should get together and decide what their real beef with the EU is before they start bagging it. Just for consistency.

Edited by BlackRedLittleDevil, 24 February 2013 - 09:37 AM.

[Br Cornelius]

There real beef is that its Johnny Foreigner telling us what to do

Br Cornelius

[spud the mackem]

BlackRedLittleDevil, on 24 February 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

Extorting the less wealthy countries??  I'm sure I read somewhere in previous posts that the British were unhappy about having to tag along the poorer EU members.  Now you're saying they're being extorted. Maybe all the euroskeptics should get together and decide what their real beef with the EU is before they start bagging it. Just for consistency.

The poorer states are in it for one reason only Bruce,and thats to see how much Money they can grab out of it.END OF STORY.

[Br Cornelius]

spud the mackem, on 24 February 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:

The poorer states are in it for one reason only Bruce,and thats to see how much Money they can grab out of it.END OF STORY.

I thought it was to access a large trading block without tariffs.
The structural aid is there to ensure that all members are on a level playing field and achieve the best economic productivity such that they become net contributors. That's what happens to all periphery states - they improve their economy and become net contributors.

The EU is not a charity - it is a very hard headed business arrangement and all members understand the deal (though it seems some of our members here don't).

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 24 February 2013 - 10:03 AM.

[stevewinn]

after Brs history lesson, he fails to mention that the UK joined the EEC for trade and then benefits of that trade, from Britain joining the EEC to modern day the world has changed, the EU is so far removed from the what the EEC was. we went from trade and co-operation to the current situation where we are hamstrung by EU legislation, which is implemented even if its not in our interest. when you have the modern day EU forbidding the UK the worlds fifth largest economy in the world from striking its own trade deals, then we are limiting ourselves. The EU effects our everyday lives, from how our mail is delivered, to bin/rubbish collections. and that shows you just how intrusive it is.

To say the EU has kept peace in europe is laughable, and not even the mention of thousands of American troops stationed in europe. and the fact both the UK and France both gaining Nuclear weapons. - helped keep a lid on things'

the europhiles fail to mention their epic error of judgement which they gloss over, just remember this, the europhiles on here wanted to the UK to ditch the pound sterling and join the euro currency, - its now a known fact that if the UK had ditched the pound we'd have been in a depression for the last six years and on par with the Greek economy. so just bear that in mind when they spout their pro EU rubbish - just think of the massive error of judgment and the situation we'd find ourselves in to day if we'd have gone along with them. their argument was Britain needed to join the Euro, just like their argument is today we need to remain EU members.

Truth is the UK can and should go it alone, lets prove once again, they were wrong about us joining the Euro. and they will once again be proven wrong if we leave the EU. the only thing to fear is fear alone.

[Colonel Rhuairidh]

BlackRedLittleDevil, on 24 February 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

Extorting the less wealthy countries?? I'm sure I read somewhere in previous posts that the British were unhappy about having to tag along the poorer EU members. Now you're saying they're being extorted. Maybe all the euroskeptics should get together and decide what their real beef with the EU is before they start bagging it. Just for consistency.

What the heck would you call the EU telling Greece (for instance) that they'll have to make enormous cuts in public services or they won't get the bailout from the EU that they need to stop their economy collapsing? Doesn't that sound like extortion to you? And yes, that's what the Whinging is about; the amount that's poured into the EU parliament and the EU Central Bank in order for them to be able to extort others. You don't really think that the European parliament and the European Central Bank exist purely out of an altruistic desire to help those in countries that are less fortunate, do you? Like all Banks, they exist to make themselves even richer through extortion.

[Colonel Rhuairidh]

Br Cornelius, on 24 February 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

I thought it was to access a large trading block without tariffs.
The structural aid is there to ensure that all members are on a level playing field and achieve the best economic productivity such that they become net contributors. That's what happens to all periphery states - they improve their economy and become net contributors.

They joined because they thought that they could milk the European Central Bank for enormous handouts, which is why there's still a queue of Eastern European countries that are still gullible enough to think the same thing.

[Colonel Rhuairidh]

stevewinn, on 24 February 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

To say the EU has kept peace in europe is laughable, and not even the mention of thousands of American troops stationed in europe. and the fact both the UK and France both gaining Nuclear weapons. - helped keep a lid on things'

the EU could surely only possibly argue that for the 20 years since 1990, since before that it was the US & NATO on one side and the Warsaw Pact on the other, and the EU was frankly pretty irrelevant in the middle, certainly from a military point of view. Of course, after 1990, true, peace reigned everywhere in Europe.

... er, don't mention Yugoslavia, anyone ....  

[Br Cornelius]

Lord Vetinari, on 24 February 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

What the heck would you call the EU telling Greece (for instance) that they'll have to make enormous cuts in public services or they won't get the bailout from the EU that they need to stop their economy collapsing? Doesn't that sound like extortion to you? And yes, that's what the Whinging is about; the amount that's poured into the EU parliament and the EU Central Bank in order for them to be able to extort others. You don't really think that the European parliament and the European Central Bank exist purely out of an altruistic desire to help those in countries that are less fortunate, do you? Like all Banks, they exist to make themselves even richer through extortion.

So you think that Greece and Portugal and the other PIIG countries would be better off outside of the EU. The evidence of history is that they would have collapsed their economies long ago and would have entered another period of military dictatorship. They would only have been able to access World Bank finance (which has always come with more stringent  structural adjustment criteria). The thing you overlook is that the current crisis was precipitated by an external factor over which the EU had almost no control. It would have destroyed the basket case economies whether they were in or out of the EU, but it would have inevitably ended in a far worse political outcome in those countries.

The fact is that Greece is a country which has never had a viable economy because they accept endemic corruption, the EU has told them to grow up and act like a real European country.

Br Cornelius

[Br Cornelius]

Lord Vetinari, on 24 February 2013 - 10:12 AM, said:

They joined because they thought that they could milk the European Central Bank for enormous handouts, which is why there's still a queue of Eastern European countries that are still gullible enough to think the same thing.

They have joined because they see the benefit it has brought to the countries who have already joined. Structural adjustment acts like a long term loan - that is all and everyone understands the deal.

Br Cornelius