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Life In Occupied Palestine


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#16    and then

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 01:07 PM

View PostBlack Red Devil, on 16 April 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

None are justified but how can you compare?  How can you compare the horrors conducted by representatives of a Govt which claims to be a bastion of civilised democracy, against a bunch of local radicals (one was even arrested previously by the Palestinian Authority) angered by the constant intrusion of settlers on their land?
Hadas Fogel was 3 months old.  They SLIT HIS THROAT.  Like he was a goat or something.  And they did that because he was a Jew.  Deny it all you like but this is the bottom line in this conflict.  Both sides want the land, both feel justified doing anything to keep it and one side has nukes.  They will never just magically disappear and neither will the Palestinians.  Both sides have done wrong and choosing one as being faultless because they are weaker is illogical.  It's like a statement I heard in a race relations conference - a black person cannot be racist because they have no power....  
If Obama and the Arab League have their way you will see Israel give up a sizable piece of the west bank and then after an indecently short interlude you'll see the rockets and mortars begin again.  Will they still be justified?  Is their ANYTHING the Palestinians might do that would not be justified?

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#17    Black Red Devil

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 06:47 PM

View Postand then, on 16 April 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

Hadas Fogel was 3 months old.  They SLIT HIS THROAT.  Like he was a goat or something.  And they did that because he was a Jew.  Deny it all you like but this is the bottom line in this conflict.  Both sides want the land, both feel justified doing anything to keep it and one side has nukes.  They will never just magically disappear and neither will the Palestinians.  Both sides have done wrong and choosing one as being faultless because they are weaker is illogical.  It's like a statement I heard in a race relations conference - a black person cannot be racist because they have no power....  
If Obama and the Arab League have their way you will see Israel give up a sizable piece of the west bank and then after an indecently short interlude you'll see the rockets and mortars begin again.  Will they still be justified?  Is their ANYTHING the Palestinians might do that would not be justified?

I repeat.  Your comparison makes no sense.  The Palestinian criminals don't represent the elected Govt.  In fact, I even pointed out that one was arrested.  Instead, Mossad IS Govt.
Israel NEEDS to drop their Zionistic ideals of a greater Israel and GIVE UP Palestinian land (the west bank) and p..ss off the settlers.  No ifs or buts.  That's the only way forward towards peace.  If rockets start after peace agreements are made then the onus would be back on the Palestinians.
But c'mon tell the truth, Zion doesn't want the Peace, at least not Peace without the land.  True?

Edited by Black Red Devil, 16 April 2013 - 06:48 PM.

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#18    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 09:43 PM

And besides, if God wants Israel to have that land, God will ensure it ends up in their hands. Theft, even in the name of God, is IIRC against one of the Commandments.
If Israel said "right, these are our borders" and drew a line across the West Bank leaving the borders are they are right now, everything that happens after that is Palestinian aggression not Israeli aggravation. It'll be the fault entirely and only of one group, not something that's tit-for-tat escalating time and again.


#19    GoSC

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 03:58 AM

View PostWearer of Hats, on 16 April 2013 - 09:43 PM, said:

And besides, if God wants Israel to have that land, God will ensure it ends up in their hands. Theft, even in the name of God, is IIRC against one of the Commandments.
If Israel said "right, these are our borders" and drew a line across the West Bank leaving the borders are they are right now, everything that happens after that is Palestinian aggression not Israeli aggravation. It'll be the fault entirely and only of one group, not something that's tit-for-tat escalating time and again.

Following this train of thought, I will add in further argument against Christian Zionism:

When God gave Israel that land it was completely conditional (see Deuteronomy 28) and he had already fulfilled that promise (see Joshua 21:43-45). And God already regathered Israel upon their return to the land after the Babylonian captivity. God fulfilled all of these promises to Israel ALREADY.

Israel is OBLIGATED to Deuteronomy 28. There's no "ands", "ifs", or "buts" about it.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#20    Yamato

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 04:52 AM

View PostB Jenkins, on 17 April 2013 - 03:58 AM, said:

Following this train of thought, I will add in further argument against Christian Zionism:

When God gave Israel that land it was completely conditional (see Deuteronomy 28) and he had already fulfilled that promise (see Joshua 21:43-45). And God already regathered Israel upon their return to the land after the Babylonian captivity. God fulfilled all of these promises to Israel ALREADY.

Israel is OBLIGATED to Deuteronomy 28. There's no "ands", "ifs", or "buts" about it.
Awww but that scripture is not convenient for them right now!   Religious texts are for cherry picking, and surely there is something more supportive of their policies than that!

You're using Judaism against Zionism.  Spanky!   I suppose anyone who would dare to do such a thing could get branded "anti-Semitic", or worse, "self-hating Jewish".   Just be careful you don't accidentally "deny the Holocaust", or "wipe off" any "maps".   Basically, the easy things to remember when dealing with media-fed Zionists.

Zionist Jews believe that Israel must be first in the world in the minds of all Jewry.   Jewish TV discusses at great length the indoctrination of young Jews around the world into supporting Israel and making sure young people identify favorably with Zionism.   Jews living outside of Israel who have never traveled to Israel or otherwise shown any support for it are talked about as if they're a lower class of Jewish.  Especially compared to the true friends of Israel who donate and/or visit frequently.

I think that Zionists don't believe in what they owe to God, they only believe in what God owes them.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#21    SpiritWriter

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 06:00 AM

Thanks for the thread b jenkins

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#22    and then

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 09:12 AM

View PostBlack Red Devil, on 16 April 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

I repeat.  Your comparison makes no sense.  The Palestinian criminals don't represent the elected Govt.  In fact, I even pointed out that one was arrested.  Instead, Mossad IS Govt.
Israel NEEDS to drop their Zionistic ideals of a greater Israel and GIVE UP Palestinian land (the west bank) and p..ss off the settlers.  No ifs or buts.  That's the only way forward towards peace.  If rockets start after peace agreements are made then the onus would be back on the Palestinians.
But c'mon tell the truth, Zion doesn't want the Peace, at least not Peace without the land.  True?
And the Palestinians do?  Lots of ifs here but the problem with that is that Israel already HAS given up land and removed settlements -remember Gaza?  The blockade began AFTER the rockets started falling.  The walls were built AFTER the intifada.  Torture the history of the conflict any way you like but the truth of the matter is that the Palestinians have given Israel justification for every act.  They never have conceded the right of Israel to be a Jewish homeland.  They never will.  The world will continue to be willing dupes and the Pali PR will eventually lead to a major war in the M.E.  It amazes me that people look past this concept.  I read somewhere once that "a wise man observes danger and prepares while the simple continue on and suffer".

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#23    XingWi

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 10:39 AM

View Postand then, on 16 April 2013 - 03:29 AM, said:

One does not need to be biased to see that.

View Postand then, on 16 April 2013 - 03:29 AM, said:

My comments were in answer to XingWi's post and I feel it was the correct response as he seems to be one of those who dismiss the evils of everyone except Israel.

For someone that claims to be "unbiased", you are very quick to label everyone that disagrees with you or does not accept your point of view as "biased" or "propagandist" or "anti-Semitic". I'm seeing a peculiar pattern in your responses. You rely heavily on straw man fallacies. Even if someone presents an unbiased view, you accuse him of being biased and then attack him. And if someone points out the extremism in your arguments you accuse him of personal attacks. Although Black Red Devil said: "None are justified?", you responded by saying: "Is their ANYTHING the Palestinians might do that would not be justified?" - a straw man argument. Similar is your response to acidhead. I posed a simple question, and even mentioned "collective  punishment" which indicates a little responsibility on the Palestinians too, but it does not seem to you two-sided enough and I'm already a "jew-hater" ?!?


View Postand then, on 15 April 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:

Nope, I mean actual examples of regret on the part of groups who celebrate the murder of innocents, including 14 month old babies by throat slitting.  That is, Palestinian "freedom fighters".  

While there have been some Israeli civilian deaths at the hands of Palestinian freedom fighters, no doubt about that, but the loss suffered by Palestinians at the hands of IOF and settlers is far greater, several thousand times more. There is no comparison between the two.

As for your example of killing that child, I don't believe they did it on purpose. Maybe they attacked the settlers on purpose and the death of the baby was collateral damage. And unless you were yourself there with them at that time, you cannot claim to know for sure what exactly happened. I'm not endorsing the attacks on children but it's hard for me to believe that a group that is driven by their belief in afterlife and hopes to meet God would commit such an act on purpose especially when their religion expressly prohibits killing of women and children even in war.

However, for arguments sake lets assume they killed that child, but how can you equate that with thousands of Palestinian children deliberately killed by IOF, or who died in extreme conditions due to the blockade? How can you equate that with Israeli endorsement of extremist rabbis that provoke Israelis to kill gentile babies?


1. Rabbi permits even the murder of gentile babies and children



2. Who is funding the rabbi who endorses killing gentile babies?




View Postand then, on 15 April 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:

If you are going to cry me a river for the horrors the Palestinians endure, save the effort.  

Is it wrong to have the feeling of commiseration that differentiates humans from animals? Is it wrong to feel the pain of the suffering of our brothers and sisters in humanity? Is it wrong to express that pain? The way you are mocking humans' expression of sympathy for other humans indicates nothing but insensitivity and sadism on your part.


View Postand then, on 15 April 2013 - 07:18 PM, said:

I live in a real world where there is more than a single side in arguments.  A world where there is more that is  evil than Israel and Jews alone.

Yeah, you live in a "real" world where straw man arguments and a myriad of other logical fallacies do not exist, and everyone that disagrees with you is a Jew-hater and an anti-Semitic.


#24    XingWi

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 10:48 AM

View Postand then, on 16 April 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:

The fact that my being a Christian Zionist makes you sick is immaterial to me.  You don't understand that while it is a vile label to you, I actually wear it with pride

You wear this "Zionist" label with pride, a label that is being increasingly discarded by the Jews themselves because they are ashamed of wearing it ?!?


True Torah Jews against zionism


______________________________



Jews United Against Zionism, United Nations, January 4, 2009






Jews United Against Zionism



Edited by XingWi, 17 April 2013 - 10:50 AM.


#25    XingWi

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 10:51 AM

....continued




Orthodox Jews protest against Zionism






Israel Shouldn't Exist Says Rabbi Weiss



Edited by XingWi, 17 April 2013 - 10:51 AM.


#26    and then

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 11:54 AM

View PostXingWi, on 17 April 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

....continued




Orthodox Jews protest against Zionism






Israel Shouldn't Exist Says Rabbi Weiss


8 million Israelis disagree  :tu:

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#27    Black Red Devil

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 07:02 PM

View Postand then, on 17 April 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

And the Palestinians do?  Lots of ifs here but the problem with that is that Israel already HAS given up land and removed settlements -remember Gaza?  The blockade began AFTER the rockets started falling.  The walls were built AFTER the intifada.  Torture the history of the conflict any way you like but the truth of the matter is that the Palestinians have given Israel justification for every act.  They never have conceded the right of Israel to be a Jewish homeland.  They never will.  The world will continue to be willing dupes and the Pali PR will eventually lead to a major war in the M.E.  It amazes me that people look past this concept.  I read somewhere once that "a wise man observes danger and prepares while the simple continue on and suffer".

So I grab my next door neighbors whole property and then decide to give him back the toilet and that's supposed to please him?  Also, the PA have recognised Israel as a legitimate State, for your information.
Israel has no Right to totally blockade Palestinians and they have no justification in oppressing other people, specially on their own homeland.  That's not me talking, it's most of the world leaders, the UN and Human Right Organisations.

Edited by Black Red Devil, 17 April 2013 - 07:03 PM.

We are each our own devil, and we make this world our hell

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#28    and then

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 08:57 PM

View PostBlack Red Devil, on 17 April 2013 - 07:02 PM, said:

So I grab my next door neighbors whole property and then decide to give him back the toilet and that's supposed to please him?  Also, the PA have recognised Israel as a legitimate State, for your information.
Israel has no Right to totally blockade Palestinians and they have no justification in oppressing other people, specially on their own homeland.  That's not me talking, it's most of the world leaders, the UN and Human Right Organisations.
Indeed they have.  A state that can be inhabited by an unlimited number of Palestinians.  IOW another Arab state.  Israel's request is to be recognized as the state of the JEWISH people.  No Arab state has or probably ever will recognize this.  RD you are far from being a simpleton.  How is it that you cannot understand or accept that this state, REGARDLESS world opinion, IS going to remain in Palestine?  Only irrational people will continue to hope that Israel is just going to decide to disappear some day.  And I also ask you, can you not be honest with yourself about the end game the Palestinians have openly declared for decades?  Are we not to accept them at their word?  Even when they actively until this day still teach vehement hatred against all Jews?  What is the disconnect?  If the Palestinians were willing to accept some compromise - to include making that simple declaration I mentioned - then Israel would be FORCED to come to the table and make peace.  But the Palis will not do it.  Do you deny this?

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#29    and then

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 09:21 PM

View PostXingWi, on 17 April 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

For someone that claims to be "unbiased", you are very quick to label everyone that disagrees with you or does not accept your point of view as "biased" or "propagandist" or "anti-Semitic". I'm seeing a peculiar pattern in your responses. You rely heavily on straw man fallacies. Even if someone presents an unbiased view, you accuse him of being biased and then attack him. And if someone points out the extremism in your arguments you accuse him of personal attacks. Although Black Red Devil said: "None are justified?", you responded by saying: "Is their ANYTHING the Palestinians might do that would not be justified?" - a straw man argument. Similar is your response to acidhead. I posed a simple question, and even mentioned "collective  punishment" which indicates a little responsibility on the Palestinians too, but it does not seem to you two-sided enough and I'm already a "jew-hater" ?!?




While there have been some Israeli civilian deaths at the hands of Palestinian freedom fighters, no doubt about that, but the loss suffered by Palestinians at the hands of IOF and settlers is far greater, several thousand times more. There is no comparison between the two.

As for your example of killing that child, I don't believe they did it on purpose. Maybe they attacked the settlers on purpose and the death of the baby was collateral damage. And unless you were yourself there with them at that time, you cannot claim to know for sure what exactly happened. I'm not endorsing the attacks on children but it's hard for me to believe that a group that is driven by their belief in afterlife and hopes to meet God would commit such an act on purpose especially when their religion expressly prohibits killing of women and children even in war.

However, for arguments sake lets assume they killed that child, but how can you equate that with thousands of Palestinian children deliberately killed by IOF, or who died in extreme conditions due to the blockade? How can you equate that with Israeli endorsement of extremist rabbis that provoke Israelis to kill gentile babies?


1. Rabbi permits even the murder of gentile babies and children



2. Who is funding the rabbi who endorses killing gentile babies?






Is it wrong to have the feeling of commiseration that differentiates humans from animals? Is it wrong to feel the pain of the suffering of our brothers and sisters in humanity? Is it wrong to express that pain? The way you are mocking humans' expression of sympathy for other humans indicates nothing but insensitivity and sadism on your part.




Yeah, you live in a "real" world where straw man arguments and a myriad of other logical fallacies do not exist, and everyone that disagrees with you is a Jew-hater and an anti-Semitic.
So I'm an insensitive, inhuman sadist?  Wow, quite a diagnosis gleaned from a few posts on a forum :w00t:  Christian Zionists are simply individuals who believe that the modern state of Israel is a fulfillment of Bible prophecy.  We fully support the Jewish people and believe they have an inherent right to the land they are currently inhabiting, along with quite a bit more actually.  For those here who support the Palestinian cause they find CZ's hateful and offensive - I get that and have no problem with it any longer. I am content to be judged by my Creator for my beliefs and expect everyone else to face the same level of scrutiny.  Slashing the throat of a 3 month old child is singularly horrific and to say that it in some way can be overlooked because of the killing of Palestinian children speaks volumes.  You are welcome to any opinion of me you choose to have.  Matters not a bit.  The real story of Israel/Palestinian is the role it will play as the spark that starts  WWIII.  Hopefully the hatred of the evildoers in Israel will be sufficient to get you through the tough times ahead.  Times that might be avoided if people were simply willing to allow Israel to exist as a Jewish state.  Have you ever considered that Xing?  That all they really want is a state that is Jewish?  Is denying them this worth a global conflagration some day?

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#30    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 10:15 PM

I seem to recall the "build a Jewish State" brigade were offered land in a couple of other countries - including America - but instead chose to take land from someone else.
Now, I believe in God. I believe His plans will come about when He is ready for them to be and there's not a dickybird man can do about it. Obviously Biblical Israel's time has not yet come because the world isn't ready for it.





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