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Ghosts and Time Travel

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#31    ReaperS_ParadoX

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 07:52 PM

View Postpetermattson, on 14 September 2013 - 10:24 PM, said:

You are saying that because there is nothing that we know of that says time travel is impossible, it is reasonable to assume that a time machine will be built in the future.
Therefore SEEING a time traveler and having the technology explained by that time traveler wouldn't change anything because we already know it's not impossible?

I don't understand how you can definitively say that.

Showing someone from the 1930s film footage of a lunar landing would have changed things, no?

If you showed someone from the 1930s a moon landing they wouldnt have the technology right at that point, Would it change the world yes but Space travel wasnt invented in the 1930s so it would be a mute point

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#32    keninsc

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 11:38 PM

Pssssss! I already pointed that out to him, he didn't get it then and repeating it means you just gave him another opportunity to miss it again.


#33    petermattson

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 02:12 PM

View Postkeninsc, on 16 September 2013 - 11:38 PM, said:

Pssssss! I already pointed that out to him, he didn't get it then and repeating it means you just gave him another opportunity to miss it again.

So much snark. You seem like a delightful person.
The problem for you is that you have disregarded my original point. If a time machine is a physical thing, then it could be used in any time period, otherwise the time traveler wouldn't have a way to travel "back". I realize that you think you know so much about time travel, but it has not been proven to exist. You are formulating your hypothesis with nothing and then trying to poke holes in the hypothesis of someone else who has no proof either. But, like I said before, thanks for all of your help.


#34    Mike G

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 02:27 PM

View Postpetermattson, on 03 September 2013 - 10:28 PM, said:

I have theorized that time travel is not possible because if it was ever to be invented, someone would inevitably give away the secret of it while time traveling, thereby making it something that "always" existed. I realize this theory is problematic but I think it has its practical merits.
I presented this theory to my class, and one of my students posited that perhaps the technology of "invisibility" could also be invented and that would make it possible to time travel without being seen. This led to a discussion about the phenomena of "ghosts" being invisible time travelers.
A quick bit of "research" led me to the fact that my conclusion is not all that original.

http://redstarfilms....are-ghosts.html


Are there any deep thinkers willing to volunteer opinions about this idea?

So, the reported ghost of Abraham Lincoln in the White House mean that Abraham Lincoln was a time traveler? Or did some time traveler simply dress like Abraham Lincoln? But to what end, as that would largely undermine any attempts at invisibility.

See, this theory doesn't account for sightings where ordinary people see their loved ones after they have passed. I mean, let's be honest... I somehow seriously doubt that old Uncle Morty was a time Traveler with advanced cloaking capabilities...

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#35    keninsc

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 07:33 PM

View Postpetermattson, on 17 September 2013 - 02:12 PM, said:

So much snark. You seem like a delightful person.
The problem for you is that you have disregarded my original point. If a time machine is a physical thing, then it could be used in any time period, otherwise the time traveler wouldn't have a way to travel "back". I realize that you think you know so much about time travel, but it has not been proven to exist. You are formulating your hypothesis with nothing and then trying to poke holes in the hypothesis of someone else who has no proof either. But, like I said before, thanks for all of your help.

I have given you no working hypothesis to begin with, mainly because I don't have one. I don't claim to know all there is about time travel.  And it's kind of a given that if you travel back in time you're going to need to have a time machine to get back or you'll be stuck. The only thing I poked any holes in was your supposition that having knowledge of time travel would alter the future. That's a little like saying that if you go back in time you change it by being there. The fact is the time line would have to be so fragile that the slightest disruption would cause it to fall apart. I seriously doubt that's the case.

Let me preach on it.

Ok, let's say suddenly you have access to a time machine, either by invention or by some other means, but you have access. Now say you wanted to win a lottery in the past. You can do this via a couple different scenarios, but I'm going to use this one. You go back the drawing before the bigger win, only now you know what the winning number was and you purchase your ticket with the said winning number. Like magic you win. Now, think about it, what has changed?

You are now the winner instead of the old lady in Florida who was going to win on the next drawing. Your life changes due to the win, maybe the life of some of your family and friends changes because you shared some of the money with them. The old lady who was going to win doesn't win, so her life doesn't change. The world continues on because someone was going to win anyway. You see my point?

The time line isn't a fragile flower. In order to effect change globally then you'd have to make a change on a global scale. Yes, I know if you go back and shoot Hitler as a child then you might avert WWII, or would you? We don't know because we don't have access to alternate timelines.

So this is why your basis supposition doesn't hold water. It's not that I poked a hole in your contention, it's that your contention already had a hole in it and all I did was point it out.

Trust me, I've had a lot of discussions with people over the years and had my own theories gunned down. Keep looking and thinking about, just don't get p***ed because someone sees something you didn't consider.

Edited by keninsc, 18 September 2013 - 07:34 PM.


#36    petermattson

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 08:01 PM

View Postkeninsc, on 18 September 2013 - 07:33 PM, said:

I have given you no working hypothesis to begin with, mainly because I don't have one. I don't claim to know all there is about time travel.  And it's kind of a given that if you travel back in time you're going to need to have a time machine to get back or you'll be stuck. The only thing I poked any holes in was your supposition that having knowledge of time travel would alter the future. That's a little like saying that if you go back in time you change it by being there. The fact is the time line would have to be so fragile that the slightest disruption would cause it to fall apart. I seriously doubt that's the case.

Let me preach on it.

Ok, let's say suddenly you have access to a time machine, either by invention or by some other means, but you have access. Now say you wanted to win a lottery in the past. You can do this via a couple different scenarios, but I'm going to use this one. You go back the drawing before the bigger win, only now you know what the winning number was and you purchase your ticket with the said winning number. Like magic you win. Now, think about it, what has changed?

You are now the winner instead of the old lady in Florida who was going to win on the next drawing. Your life changes due to the win, maybe the life of some of your family and friends changes because you shared some of the money with them. The old lady who was going to win doesn't win, so her life doesn't change. The world continues on because someone was going to win anyway. You see my point?

The time line isn't a fragile flower. In order to effect change globally then you'd have to make a change on a global scale. Yes, I know if you go back and shoot Hitler as a child then you might avert WWII, or would you? We don't know because we don't have access to alternate timelines.

So this is why your basis supposition doesn't hold water. It's not that I poked a hole in your contention, it's that your contention already had a hole in it and all I did was point it out.

Trust me, I've had a lot of discussions with people over the years and had my own theories gunned down. Keep looking and thinking about, just don't get p***ed because someone sees something you didn't consider.

I have already said this, but my original scenario was not a "small" incident. I am suggesting that a time traveler goes to an earlier time and shows the world his time machine. This is a "big" incident. I completely understand the point you made in the joke about students demanding a time machine. What I don't get is how that disproves what I am suggesting which is that if time travel is ever to exist, it would have "always" existed because somebody would be likely to expose the existence of time travel when they visited an earlier time. As a matter of fact, the point of that joke seems to reinforce what my original point was. The part about how that would change the world is secondary. That was a discussion you began because it seems you think a time traveler showing the world that time travel exists would cause little or no change. I don't buy that and I don't understand how anyone could make that claim. No, we don't have access to alternate timelines, so it is literally impossible for us to say HOW the world would change but I think "big" incidents (killing Hitler, etc.) can be safely theorized to lead to big changes.


#37    keninsc

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 08:08 PM

That would be completely irresponsible of the time traveler because as I stated earlier you have no idea what will happen to the current time line.  Why not go back to the Civil War and give the South nuclear technology? Why not go back and show Hitler why he screwed up his shot at world domination?

What you are talking about is a completely immoral and irresponsible thing, an intentional change of historical events without knowing how the outcome effect the world. You just lost your seat in my time machine I was going to show you.


#38    Realm

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 11:16 PM

My first rule of time travel would be, never go in the past.
Suppose you thought it a moral thing to go back in time and kill Hitler. You return to your timeline, only to find the ruling Nazi party world wide.
You can never know the outcome till you return and that is extremely risky.

However, suppose you went to the future only to find World War III had happened and the world was reduced to rubble.
You could find out how and why it happened, then return to your timeline and prevent it from happening.
That, and you could pick up technology and science to take back and advance mankind.

Forward in time only, then return to the timeline you came from, nowhere near the risk of going backwards.


#39    keninsc

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 01:25 AM

How Realm there is a problem with that, the future hasn't happened yet. Events in the present determine what will come to be, so you can go back but not forward. Well, you can go forward to where you began your trip to the past, but not beyond.


#40    Brian Topp

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 02:51 AM

So using this.... idea (i hate to say theory) all the ghosts in Ghost Hunters are just fans who went back in time to visit them????

It is easier to claim it is paranormal than taking the hard route and find out what really happened.


#41    petermattson

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 12:44 PM

View Postkeninsc, on 18 September 2013 - 08:08 PM, said:

That would be completely irresponsible of the time traveler because as I stated earlier you have no idea what will happen to the current time line.  Why not go back to the Civil War and give the South nuclear technology? Why not go back and show Hitler why he screwed up his shot at world domination?

What you are talking about is a completely immoral and irresponsible thing, an intentional change of historical events without knowing how the outcome effect the world. You just lost your seat in my time machine I was going to show you.

Part of my point was that some reckless fool would inevitably do this "completely immoral and irresponsible thing," because most people are reckless fools.


#42    keninsc

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 12:53 PM

View Postpetermattson, on 19 September 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

Part of my point was that some reckless fool would inevitably do this "completely immoral and irresponsible thing," because most people are reckless fools.

No, I don't think that was your point at all. I think you saw the problem I pointed out and now you're making changes to cover your tracks because now your ego is bruised.


#43    petermattson

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 01:47 PM

View Postkeninsc, on 19 September 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

No, I don't think that was your point at all. I think you saw the problem I pointed out and now you're making changes to cover your tracks because now your ego is bruised.

In my original post, I said "someone would inevitably give away" the existence of time travel. I'm sorry that I did not completely explain myself at first but I have now: Someone would inevitably give away that he/she was a time traveler because most people are reckless fools.


#44    keninsc

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 06:38 PM

Of course you did. You win, now run along.


#45    petermattson

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 10:29 PM

*runs away from man yelling at clouds*






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