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Phoenix - Flares Debunked


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#226    S2F

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 01:19 AM

View PostTheMcGuffin, on 22 June 2012 - 01:14 AM, said:

That's the way they'd always handle it, whether it was from another country or somewhere else.  They would also have the capability of collecting anything that crashed if they possibly could, and we know that in the US this was called Project Moon Dust, Project Blue Fly and Project UFO, at least originally.  We know that they did attempt to collect wreckage in other countries if they could, and the same program had the capacity to collect Soviet wreckage or other more exotic kinds.  It was all done by the same outfit, and probably still is.

It is (so far as I know) standard procedure for any invading aircraft (or object) that can't be ID'd. Just because there is a shoot first and ask questions later policy in effect doesn't necessarily imply that ET is the primary culprit of concern.

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#227    psyche101

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 01:30 AM

View PostSlave2Fate, on 21 June 2012 - 11:29 PM, said:

That's pretty much what I'm pointing out, to an extent. World governments (even allies) would likely not collude in such a grand conspiracy of alien visitation. But keeping it secret from other nations? I don't think that would be as easy as you seem to make out. Especially considering the heights of espionage that we have seen historically from WWII, the Cold War and even in today's government climate. Throw in agencies like NASA and NORAD (along with other international equivalents) and I think you'd have a hard time sneaking something as small as a satellite into Earth's atmosphere. Think if North Korea were to find out that the US was in contact with aliens and could prove it. They might hold on to that info for a little bit, until they found a situation that could benefit them by spilling the beans to the rest of the world. It's the very contention between governments that makes the whole conspiracy seem a little thin in my opinion.


That is the rub. A craft cannot zip into US airspace an not be seen nowadays. And the US has enemies. They wont keep their mouth shut, nor will the amateur contingent, who have proven themselves to have more sky covered than NASA. If someone like North Korea had concerns that the US had such a major advantage, I think they would not only spill the beans, but encourage allies to join them, and seek further allies. It would not be kept secret for any length of time just due to the nature and polotics of the world as it stands today.

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#228    TheMcGuffin

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 02:02 AM

View PostSlave2Fate, on 22 June 2012 - 01:19 AM, said:

It is (so far as I know) standard procedure for any invading aircraft (or object) that can't be ID'd. Just because there is a shoot first and ask questions later policy in effect doesn't necessarily imply that ET is the primary culprit of concern.

Yes it is, and we know that UFOs have been chased many times and even fired upon.   They were real all right and we know that from the records that have been declassified.  Now we don't know of any Soviet aircraft that were even capable of reaching the US until about 1955, and certainly none that had these speeds and maneuverability.

That part we know, but when it comes to the questions of what they are and where they come from, that's the difficult part.  After all, there are people like Jacques Vallee and many others who think they have been here for a long time.

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#229    DONTEATUS

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 02:52 AM

Well Heres my drift on the Airspace being not quite as foggy as it may seem ! THeres really not been any real UFO`s photographed and videoed !to actually inspect . So WHat if the E.T`s really dont either come here at all ,or Have such a fantastic cloaking system that we will never see them?
My money is on tech ! IT always rules !

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#230    psyche101

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 06:07 AM

View PostDONTEATUS, on 22 June 2012 - 02:52 AM, said:

Well Heres my drift on the Airspace being not quite as foggy as it may seem ! THeres really not been any real UFO`s photographed and videoed !to actually inspect . So WHat if the E.T`s really dont either come here at all ,or Have such a fantastic cloaking system that we will never see them?
My money is on tech ! IT always rules !

I am actually wondering if Vallee had the same reservations that I do with regards to entering and leaving space, and if such thoughts might have influenced his support for the EDH as opposed to an ETH.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#231    Babe Ruth

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 12:49 PM

View Postpsyche101, on 22 June 2012 - 12:53 AM, said:

Why is it not possible that the Government do not want to give citizens the impression that they are in the dark on this subject, and that they might wish to carry out covert investigations so that any information will not be tainted? They might be taking this very seriously, but the reasons I find include more than an Alien answer. I have looked at Roswell in great depth, and I find it was more a battle of egos than information.

I think it is entirely possible, even probable, that the govt does not want to give the impression that it is 'in the dark' about what UFOs mean.

But that does not necessarily mean that UFOs are imaginary or NOT of alien origin.

The govt's first press releases about Roswell cited 'flying saucers' and UFO.  It was days later that it changed its story to 'weather balloon', beginning the coverup.

Fife Symington operated at first in 'obfuscation mode' so typical of government leaders and employees.

It was LATER that he went into 'truth mode', coming clean about his seeing the object.


#232    Rafterman

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 01:21 PM

It was flares.

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#233    Captain Zim

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 01:22 PM

View Postzoser, on 17 June 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

Modern science?  Nuclear reactors spewing out their poisons; fossil fuels in cars for the last 100 years; burning coal in homes slowly poisoning the planet that our ancients were doing to keep warm.  Forgive me if I don't bow down to science just yet,

Not science. Business. Greed. Yours and mine. The Australian Aborigines destroyed their continent with fire, turning into a desert. Other humans hunted giant mammals to extinction. All with point-ed sticks.

Look to that PET bottle you drink from. It took thousands of litres of fresh water just make a 500ml container to quench your thirst.

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#234    Captain Zim

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 01:27 PM

View Postpsyche101, on 22 June 2012 - 06:07 AM, said:

I am actually wondering if Vallee had the same reservations that I do with regards to entering and leaving space, and if such thoughts might have influenced his support for the EDH as opposed to an ETH.

Interesting. Would you care to elaborate?

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#235    psyche101

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 06:11 AM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 22 June 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

I think it is entirely possible, even probable, that the govt does not want to give the impression that it is 'in the dark' about what UFOs mean.

Hi BR

Hope you do not mind "BR" I feel uncomfortable calling a guy "Babe" ;) No offense intended, I understand the reverence, but we do not play baseball seriously down here. It's lost on me.

In fact considering the Cold War I would be running with "probable" on that one. The Government simply has to keep secrets, or nobody would be enjoying democracy today.


View PostBabe Ruth, on 22 June 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

But that does not necessarily mean that UFOs are imaginary or NOT of alien origin.

By the same token, it does not mean that they are. And the proof I find not to be convincing. I try to look at proof from an academic level, and leave emotion out of it. That is how I make most decisions. Nothing has pointed at an ALien answer, that is the default position of man, and this has been proven in historical record. We did not know how lightning bolts happened so we attributed them to a higher power. All indications appear to point at the ET answer being just man pointing his finger at the sky again. There is zero proof positive of an Alien ever landing here. I am not saying that wont happen, or hat it cannot happen. Just with space being what it is, what we have imagined is very illogical. I really expect to be visited some day, but I expect the visit to be via communications. followed by some behemoth of a things that we see coming from thousands of miles away. You do not just zip across light years in the little sports models described, such a vehicle just cannot hold the resources required to make such a vast journey. Our own designs for Interstellar vehicles were massive.

View PostBabe Ruth, on 22 June 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

The govt's first press releases about Roswell cited 'flying saucers' and UFO.  It was days later that it changed its story to 'weather balloon', beginning the coverup.

Not quite, the next day when professionals got involved as opposed to a lone farmhand who stood to collect $3,000.00 for a flying saucer story, and they offered a different conclusions from Brazel. Marcel was the one claiming this was from another world, and people who worked with classified materials jus said really?

The Col. and I walked into the General's office where this supposed flying saucer was lying all over the floor.  As soon as I saw it, I giggled and asked if that was the flying saucer.  I was told it was.


OK, so this is the debris that some people claim was allegedly switched right? If so, why did Marcel keep trying to convince Irving that the debris was a spacecraft?

While I was examining the debris, Major Marcel was picking up pieces of the target sticks and trying to convince me that some notations on the sticks were alien writings.  There were figures on the sticks lavender or pink in color, appeared to be weather faded markings with no rhyme or reason.  He did not convince me these were alien writings.
I was convinced at the time that this was a balloon with a RAWIN target and remain convinced
.




I have no reason no to believe that Marcel was wrong in his assumption. But it does not stop there. You speak of changing stories. The USAF changed the story once, despite the claims of constant flip flops. It went from "flying Disc" which is how they describe the balloon apparatus:

THE DISC IS HEXAGONAL IN SHAPE AND WAS SUSPENDED FROM A BALLON


And then the USAF went from this "disc" to weather balloon to MOGUL balloon. And do you know what the differnece is between a weather balloon and a MOGUL balloon? The measuring apparatus. The balloons themselves come from the same store. So what did they change? Flying Disc to Flying Disc suspended by a balloon and from there they just wen with the entire balloon train, it being 6700 feet long and likely responsible for wreckage descriptions.

You know what is strange? This apparent massive debris field, and yet not a single picture. No confirmation it existed at all. There is no proof the field ever existed at all.

View PostBabe Ruth, on 22 June 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

Fife Symington operated at first in 'obfuscation mode' so typical of government leaders and employees.

It was LATER that he went into 'truth mode', coming clean about his seeing the object.


Really, you see that mockery of the situation which was obviously designed to appear empathetic to the residents of Phoenix as truthful? With all due respect, I think the politician switch on your BS meter requires calibration. It is your opinion, and mine of that public display of shenanigans is rather opposite to how you see it. Rich Contry is also a pilot, so why if Fife right, and Rich wrong, when Rich has a supporting witness that had 43x advantage over the average human eye?
Seriously, don't let feelings be your compass in science. I am not trying to be a Spock or something, but empirical evidence is the real holy grail. Get that, and even I will step back and lay out the red carpet for ET.

Cheers.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#236    psyche101

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 06:35 AM

View PostCaptain Zim, on 22 June 2012 - 01:27 PM, said:

Interesting. Would you care to elaborate?

Thank you for asking Zim. I sure have enjoyed your posts mate, refreshing to see you around again.

I find the ideal of interstellar craft leaving the atmosphere willy nilly not a viable option.

With the satellites, the ISS, NASA ESS, and then the amateur contingent constantly scanning the skies optically and via radio, the ET answer does not seem viable when these apparently interstellar craft have never been tracked entering and or leaving the atmosphere, let alone a direction in out out of the solar system To my way of thinking that just shouldn't happen in todays world. Someone should have seen something. I belong to an astronomy forum where Anthony "Birdstrike" Wesley is a member, and was fortunate enough to be a member when he informed NASA of the last 2 Jupiter strikes. We have also had a backyarder find an exoplanet. These very impressive and time consuming activities prove that the amateur contingent is vast and one to be reckoned with, certainly one to factor when regarding the observation of space. To me, that is a bad thing for stealth ET. They are going to find it increasing more difficult by the day to remain anonymous. Then you have other countries with their own spy networks and satellites. If the US was receiving Interstellar traffic, I do not see a reason why the enemies of the US would not know about the traffic or so much as keep quiet about it.  
As such, ET is running out of places to hide, yet some people report occupants that are not human. Whilst I have great reservations about the current ETH and it's current format, I do not insist that all people are lying, in some cases it comes down to a witness being mistaken, or at some very long odds, they are seeing something not of this earth. Yet nobody anywhere at any time has manged to track a craft in space. So, if people have seen something, and if it cannot leave via space, EDI seems to be the only candidate left standing, to which I for now allow the famous Holmes example of being a solution until falsified. Which arrives me at Vallee's EDI.
I do not know if it is an answer, but logic seems to lead in this direction.

Cheers.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#237    Captain Zim

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 08:42 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 17 June 2012 - 11:22 PM, said:

Well there you have you answer, give me something tangible! What in your opinion trumps the WOW! signal as far as Alien life and real contact with it goes? What do you think is the best case to date, and can you counter that math presented that proves the Phoenix lights were flares? Math does not lie, but what about Billy Mier or Bob Lazar, or George Adamski.......... it's quite a list you know.

Not directed at me, but I think the "Oh My God!" particle is a good candidate. The only physical explanation I can think of is that someone with an insanely powerful particle accelerator in our stellar neighbourhood fired a few in our general direction. That may be intended or unintended... an atomic "laser" would be an energy-efficient and stealthy way to communicate. A few particles could pack a whole lot of information based on relative energies, timing and positioning.

“I consider it an extremely dangerous doctrine, because the more likely we are to assume that the solution comes from the outside, the less likely we are to solve our problems ourselves.”


-Carl Sagan


#238    Captain Zim

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 09:38 AM

Posted Image

Edited by Captain Zim, 25 June 2012 - 09:40 AM.

“I consider it an extremely dangerous doctrine, because the more likely we are to assume that the solution comes from the outside, the less likely we are to solve our problems ourselves.”


-Carl Sagan





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