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Belgian twins choose euthenasia


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#136    OverSword

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 11:56 PM

Because Render, although its been a couple of days since I read the article I'm pretty sure they don't go into the process of how you get yourself killed by a professional.  Also the argument was being made that being deaf & blind is too much to live with, and yet before they went to be killed they had a nice pleasant long hand conversation so they could still see.  I'm sorry but this story is disturbing to me on several levels.


#137    OverSword

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 12:00 AM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 17 January 2013 - 10:39 PM, said:

Sorry I missed this before.. Oversword,  you may well have done a good deed, but the person you stopped  as you say was not a happy camper with you.and i have no idea if they are still alive or not.   When you compare that to anyone like the two middle aged twins who after a long trial  in the end agreed to end their lives .. No one was stopping them, their rights were respected.. I am sure their family felt the same...
Thing is Oversword, you can go out tomorrow and pull someone else away, and they get cheesed off at you too for interfering.. they can just as easy go out again and make sure they end it once and for all..  My point is, you can pull 100 people off a bridge, but you cannot guarantee they will not kill themselves ..  I do not see why that was even raised .. If someone clearly wishes to end it as they see fit, then it wont matter who tries to stop them, they will do it if they feel that badly about it ..

The thing with many people is - They do not like anyone telling them how to live their lives and what they should do, they hate people interfering ..   Before you go off at me, I am not saying you have done a bad thing, in fact I am not judging your actions at all.. I am just saying that not everyone will want to be saved, some will, some wont ..

Oh I agree that there is no guarantee this person didn't go jump off of something else after he spent 3 days under observation (required in the states).  but maybe when he was in the hospital his family was contacted and he discovered that the things that were making life too hard to live were outwieghed by the love he forgot for a bit that his family and friends have for him.


#138    Lava_Lady

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 05:34 AM

View PostOverSword, on 18 January 2013 - 12:00 AM, said:



Oh I agree that there is no guarantee this person didn't go jump off of something else after he spent 3 days under observation (required in the states).  but maybe when he was in the hospital his family was contacted and he discovered that the things that were making life too hard to live were outwieghed by the love he forgot for a bit that his family and friends have for him.


This is what happened to my friend after her 3rd suicide attempt:

After going missing for 72 hours, she was found barely conscious under a bridge.  She had over dosed on a cocktail of pills and alcohol.  She was rushed to the hospital, detoxed, her cuts and bruises were dressed, and when she came to she was sent to the psychiatric w ward  for the mandatory 3 days of observation.

Her family went to be with her, they cried and asked her why and told her how much they love her.  Then her friends came, me included, and did the same.

After 3 days, she was released from the hospital, she told all of us that she was sorry, that she understands how valuable her life is to us and played the part of the happy to be alive woman.

We all fell for it, life went on for everyone, we didn't check on her as frequently anymore, we all had/have our own bull **** to deal with so she bought a ticket to the farthest state she could get from Hawaii under the house of going to a special treatment center then she sent all of us lovely letters saying how happy she was... 2 days after we received those letters we found out she was dead.

She simply did not want to be alive.  her choice.

If someone reallywants to die, it's going to happen.

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#139    Yamato

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 06:28 AM

View PostExpandMyMind, on 16 January 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

You misunderstand. I meant by 'can't go on with life' the millions of depressed people with thoughts of killing themselves, not people who actually can't go on due to actual suffering brought on by physical problems.
Suffering brought on by physical problems are sometimes the results of prolongued undiagnosed/untreated depression.  These camps are largely the same campsite.   Wellness is a complex thing and these conditions are intertwined and I would say impossible to separate out accurately given today's technology.   I think that's a reason why we should be more careful with life than institutionalizing death.

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#140    acidhead

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 06:52 AM

View PostExpandMyMind, on 16 January 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

I wasn't referring to simply an unborn baby. I was referring to the stage at which the embryo can be aborted. At this stage, no, it is not a human.

I mean what next? We ban the pill? Outlaw m********ion? Both due to the potential for life being killed. A child in the womb is only classified as a human after a certain point in the process.

Before that, no, they are not human.

Of course the unborn baby is human!  We are all human... even the stuff growing inside our female bellies is human!

Allow me to ask this question for argument sake:

Why is it that the physician can be held liable for the unborn if they are found responsible for any complication during pregnancy and giving birth yet women are allowed to abort late into the pregnancy free of charge?  There is a fine line there without a doubt.  A line that has a slippery slope..... a stigma of a culture of death.

Edited by acidhead, 18 January 2013 - 06:58 AM.

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#141    ExpandMyMind

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:27 AM

View Postacidhead, on 18 January 2013 - 06:52 AM, said:

Of course the unborn baby is human!  We are all human... even the stuff growing inside our female bellies is human!

Allow me to ask this question for argument sake:

Why is it that the physician can be held liable for the unborn if they are found responsible for any complication during pregnancy and giving birth yet women are allowed to abort late into the pregnancy free of charge?  There is a fine line there without a doubt.  A line that has a slippery slope..... a stigma of a culture of death.

In my opinion, if an unborn child is unable to live on its own, outside the womb, then it is not yet a human being. But the general cut off date is 24 weeks. A fly has more self awareness and that is hardly late in a pregnancy.

You're actually against abortion? That surprises me.


#142    ExpandMyMind

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:33 AM

View PostYamato, on 18 January 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:

Suffering brought on by physical problems are sometimes the results of prolongued undiagnosed/untreated depression.  These camps are largely the same campsite.   Wellness is a complex thing and these conditions are intertwined and I would say impossible to separate out accurately given today's technology.   I think that's a reason why we should be more careful with life than institutionalizing death.

I would hardly say 'largely' the same camp site. The cases you describe, where depression causes the health problem, in my opinion, would be far in the minority. I'm talking of terminally ill patients and those who suffer accidents or debilitating birth defects or develop chronic diseases. Only in the most extreme cases should a person be helped with their own death. I'm not talking about someone like Dr House, who just has a sore leg that makes their life hard to live. Mental health problems of this nature can be fixed.

Edited by ExpandMyMind, 18 January 2013 - 10:45 AM.


#143    ExpandMyMind

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 10:44 AM

View PostHasina, on 16 January 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

Pretty much, but I also meant, I don't need to have it explained to me how some people's minds work. I know some suicidal people, after rehabilitation, aren't anymore. I've also known people, including myself, who've grown resentful of the way suicide is treated, especially when the mind set of 'I'd rather die then live' is backhanded with the guilt trip of 'think of your friends and family'. Everyone thinks 'a healthy person doesn't want to die', are you so certain? 100%?

I know that some healthy people might want to die, but only in the minority of cases, such as people who are old and have lived way past the best years of their lives. A fairly young and fit person who wants to die, simply is not and fit and healthy of mind. This is my opinion. Everything in our body chemical make up is designed, or rather, *cough*, has evolved, to preserve our lives. This is especially visible from study of our reptile brains, the limbic system. Quite simply, the desire to die is unnatural. In my opinion it goes hand in hand with mental illness of some kind.


#144    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 02:18 PM

View Postacidhead, on 18 January 2013 - 06:52 AM, said:

Of course the unborn baby is human!  We are all human... even the stuff growing inside our female bellies is human!


I agree with you .. Years ago, long before I had children, I wouldn't have agreed, but after the journey I have faced, I have changed that view .....When I lost my daughter weeks before she was due to be born..I viewed her as a little baby girl, ( well she was a little girl )  and no one could tell me any different.they didn't either...   I seen her as human  ( only wish was for her to wake  ) So many women and even fathers will agree it is human, because loosing a baby can cut you up more than anything else .. I have been there, and I never want to face that ever again...I still think of her and I will not stop thinking of her .. It is harder to imagine what that kind of experience is like, until you go through it..So again I agree with you..

After the hell I went through back in 2010  ( and trust me it was sheer hell )  ..If anyone dared to tell me that my little girl was not human, I would have punched them square in the face..It would take a few good strong men to hold me back..!!

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 18 January 2013 - 02:18 PM.

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#145    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 04:18 PM

View PostRender, on 17 January 2013 - 10:23 PM, said:

How can you not think more deeply about this? It's a seriously that hard to actually stop and calm your mind and imagine what being deaf and blind must be like? Just think about it, for a second, and realise it's not just a monty python scenario - it's but a flesh wound- .


*was that image necessary?*

Who are you to say that they should've just stuck it out, and oh your deaf .. well just learn sign language ? Oh, now you're losing your sight and you're at the point that you're almost completely blind, well just manage to learn an entire new touch bases language in a matter of months. Having trouble walking because of the neck operation? Oh just have someone guide all freaking day then.
Having respiratory problems so you have to sleep upwards  ? Buckle up and face the music!
Going insane becuase you're locked up in yourself since the entire world is based on at least one of the two senses (sight or hearing)? Get some antidepressives then! That'll improve you're quality of life, yeah..
Extremely afraid of what's coming because you'll never be able to turn it around and are condemned to living this forever, and you'll most likely lose sense of time since you can't see or hear anything. Ah well! Sorry, that just doesn't seem frightening enough, maybe if they get another disease or two, then maybe it's worth considering ending their suffering.


Monty Python references are amusing, I love them personally, but they can hardly make anyone think deeper of a suicidal situation.
It’s necessary to establish logical connection between imagery and the topic.  
Making me think deeper of people from the OP is not necessary, since anyone who has read my posts and was able to comprehend them is aware I sympathize with them, only I’m strongly against suicide as easily and generally offered “solution”.
It’s sad and frustrating to notice how many people are taking suicides lightly. That indicates superficiality and lack of understanding, in my opinion.  

Not only I’m thinking about and feeling for suicidal people, but I have also spent the entire thread here appealing for complete and deep insight before yelling “euthanasia for everyone!” or “for no one!”, because I believe it is sometimes, sadly, very much needed but sometimes not. Sometimes it’s too early to consider it, before people even tried facing the issue that can be a reason for suicide in their opinion.

I do respect their opinion and I even more respect their right to make their own decisions about their own lives.
The point that you have missed is exactly that euthanasia requires deep understanding of each particular case, it cannot be simply “legalized” and misused in any way imaginable, from offing senile rich aunts to psychopaths like Kevorkian running free.





Quote

And Belgium doesn't do euthanasia for ppl who feel suicidal. Is that what you got from this?? Is that how far you;re gonna try and belittle this dire situation they faced? "Oh they were just going through a suicidal phase, it would;ve passed"

Please.

You don't have to please me, sarcasm meister, go back to page one and discover it yourself:


Article from the OP implies it does. One of additional reasons why I doubt the quality of the article, which you would notice if you had actually read my posts.

The suicidal phases are reality, most people keep living their lives if they are successfully helped out of such phase.
The example Lava Lady gave, about a woman who really wanted to die is reality too, when people are suicidal, not phasing in and out of it, they will do it no matter how much you try.
Not to digress too much, this thread should be about euthanasia, which is – I will repeat for those who have poor comprehension skill – needed last resort in some cases. Not popcorn that can be sold with no control, because there are people out there with no conscience.

As you will discover later in life when theory becomes practice for you too.

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#146    Lava_Lady

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 05:05 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 18 January 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:



I agree with you .. Years ago, long before I had children, I wouldn't have agreed, but after the journey I have faced, I have changed that view .....When I lost my daughter weeks before she was due to be born..I viewed her as a little baby girl, ( well she was a little girl )  and no one could tell me any different.they didn't either...   I seen her as human  ( only wish was for her to wake  ) So many women and even fathers will agree it is human, because loosing a baby can cut you up more than anything else .. I have been there, and I never want to face that ever again...I still think of her and I will not stop thinking of her ..     It is harder to imagine what that kind of experience is like, until you go through it..So again I agree with you..

After the hell I went through back in 2010  ( and trust me it was sheer hell )  ..If anyone dared to tell me that my little girl was not human, I would have punched them square in the face..It would take a few good strong men to hold me back..!!

I'm so sorry for your loss.

"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function."  - F. Scott Fitzgerald


#147    ExpandMyMind

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 05:28 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 18 January 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

I agree with you .. Years ago, long before I had children, I wouldn't have agreed, but after the journey I have faced, I have changed that view .....When I lost my daughter weeks before she was due to be born..I viewed her as a little baby girl, ( well she was a little girl )  and no one could tell me any different.they didn't either...   I seen her as human  ( only wish was for her to wake  ) So many women and even fathers will agree it is human, because loosing a baby can cut you up more than anything else .. I have been there, and I never want to face that ever again...I still think of her and I will not stop thinking of her .. It is harder to imagine what that kind of experience is like, until you go through it..So again I agree with you..

After the hell I went through back in 2010  ( and trust me it was sheer hell )  ..If anyone dared to tell me that my little girl was not human, I would have punched them square in the face..It would take a few good strong men to hold me back..!!

Firstly, I'm sorry for your loss BM. People too often try to diminish the loss of a baby who hasn't yet been born, when it can be as painful to some parents as their 18 year old dying.

But if you read what I actually wrote, I did not say that any unborn baby is not a human being. I believe that before a certain point in their growth they are just a part of their mother, not an individual, and not a human being as we define the term. If a baby cannot be born and live on its own before a certain point in a pregnancy, then it falls into this category - and I am not including individual problems with different babies, I am speaking generally. And it would seem the medical establishment agrees, otherwise it would not be legal.

I believe your child, who died only weeks before her due date, was most definitely a human being.


#148    Yamato

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 05:40 PM

View PostExpandMyMind, on 18 January 2013 - 10:33 AM, said:

I would hardly say 'largely' the same camp site. The cases you describe, where depression causes the health problem, in my opinion, would be far in the minority. I'm talking of terminally ill patients and those who suffer accidents or debilitating birth defects or develop chronic diseases. Only in the most extreme cases should a person be helped with their own death. I'm not talking about someone like Dr House, who just has a sore leg that makes their life hard to live. Mental health problems of this nature can be fixed.
Not just where depression causes it, but where depression accompanies it, and plays a very big part in someone's desire to die.   Where we may agree is to say that the desire to die shouldn't be a determinant in how assisted suicide is handled.  But that isn't being separated out, it's highly relevant to who is allowed to drink the poison and die in suicide clinics today and who isn't.    I've shown someone with no limbs and a passion for life.  We can find a million others highly suicidal and yet completely mobile.   If the man with no limbs was depressed, had no possibility of a quality of life or future mobility, and wanted to die, would you then mete death out to him and let him have his wish?    Many mental health diagnoses are incurable.   People who receive a diagnosis of "borderline" or "bipolar" liken it to a death sentence.  But you would deny them their death in favor of the much rarer terminally ill patient who is much less likely to choose suicide as the way out because you're ranking these illnesses against each other, trying to rhetorically simplify a million shades of grey.   Do you really know how someone feels across these conditions?   Are you qualified to mete out life and death across them?   Am I?   If not, who is?   Responding to me with the obvious cases is inadequate because we know that life is complex and there will be many cases that are not obvious.

What you're saying here sounds more reasonable, but the biggest question is, how are we going to regulate it?   How are we going to protect life when we start legislating for death?   This feels like moral jeopardy.   If someone with terminal cancer no longer responds to pain killers and wants or needs to die, there are exhaust pipes and hoses, tranquilizers, wills and testaments, and lawyers everywhere.  What changes to the law do we need over this issue granted what you're saying?   What changes in the system do we need to address these rare cases granted so much potential for abuse?    How many terminally ill people will be encouraged to die under an umbrella of laws like this for the inheritance money?   The moral hazard to institutionalizing death doesn't seem worth it.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#149    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 08:34 PM

View PostLava_Lady, on 18 January 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

I'm so sorry for your loss.

Thank you

View PostExpandMyMind, on 18 January 2013 - 05:28 PM, said:

Firstly, I'm sorry for your loss BM. People too often try to diminish the loss of a baby who hasn't yet been born, when it can be as painful to some parents as their 18 year old dying.

But if you read what I actually wrote, I did not say that any unborn baby is not a human being. I believe that before a certain point in their growth they are just a part of their mother, not an individual, and not a human being as we define the term. If a baby cannot be born and live on its own before a certain point in a pregnancy, then it falls into this category - and I am not including individual problems with different babies, I am speaking generally. And it would seem the medical establishment agrees, otherwise it would not be legal.

I believe your child, who died only weeks before her due date, was most definitely a human being.

Thank you for the kind words in ref to my own loss ..  For the rest of your post.. well you are not the only one to hold that view, ( some processionals do too )  many more share the same..  I just like to keep out of that part...  I just hate the thoughts of loosing a little one..

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 18 January 2013 - 09:02 PM.

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#150    Render

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 12:00 PM

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 18 January 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

Monty Python references are amusing, I love them personally, but they can hardly make anyone think deeper of a suicidal situation.
It’s necessary to establish logical connection between imagery and the topic.  
Making me think deeper of people from the OP is not necessary, since anyone who has read my posts and was able to comprehend them is aware I sympathize with them, only I’m strongly against suicide as easily and generally offered “solution”.
It’s sad and frustrating to notice how many people are taking suicides lightly. That indicates superficiality and lack of understanding, in my opinion.  

Not only I’m thinking about and feeling for suicidal people, but I have also spent the entire thread here appealing for complete and deep insight before yelling “euthanasia for everyone!” or “for no one!”, because I believe it is sometimes, sadly, very much needed but sometimes not. Sometimes it’s too early to consider it, before people even tried facing the issue that can be a reason for suicide in their opinion.

I do respect their opinion and I even more respect their right to make their own decisions about their own lives.
The point that you have missed is exactly that euthanasia requires deep understanding of each particular case, it cannot be simply “legalized” and misused in any way imaginable, from offing senile rich aunts to psychopaths like Kevorkian running free.







You don't have to please me, sarcasm meister, go back to page one and discover it yourself:


Article from the OP implies it does. One of additional reasons why I doubt the quality of the article, which you would notice if you had actually read my posts.

The suicidal phases are reality, most people keep living their lives if they are successfully helped out of such phase.
The example Lava Lady gave, about a woman who really wanted to die is reality too, when people are suicidal, not phasing in and out of it, they will do it no matter how much you try.
Not to digress too much, this thread should be about euthanasia, which is – I will repeat for those who have poor comprehension skill – needed last resort in some cases. Not popcorn that can be sold with no control, because there are people out there with no conscience.

As you will discover later in life when theory becomes practice for you too.

I'll repeat my last post especially for you:

View PostRender, on 17 January 2013 - 10:41 PM, said:

But why dont you understand that IT IS tightly regulated. Seriously, it is.
This didn't happen overnight.
How can some people be so arrogant to think they and all the doctors involved didn't go over every possible option (which they did) before they granted euthanasia. They wanted to end their lives, it's a pretty major event. Not an average tuesday thing, you can bet they thought of it all.  They're not stupid yanno.

It's not like they went to a doctor and said : ah man, i dont feel so swell to day, you mind killing me?

I get ppl thinking there is a slippery slope, and i really do understand where you are coming from also. And i've mentioned in another thread about euthanasia that it's a multi faceted complex issue. Where the psychological care of doctors executing euthanasia is also very important. And euthanasia should be the last resort, which it is and was in this case.


This was a well though out process of two men who just had no way out but this one.


Don't be so arrogant to think that everyone involved with euthanasia doesn't go every thought that is proposed in this thread. You don't hold all the exclusive wisdom here.

Edited by Render, 19 January 2013 - 12:01 PM.





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